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Old
02-13-2007, 12:07 PM
  #51
DutchShamrock
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Does anyone have stats on the number of goals scored against every player while on the ice?

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02-13-2007, 12:18 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dave4 View Post
Malik's slow cross ice passes in the neutral zone are too risky. He doesn't complete 90% of his risky passes, not even close, and they too often lead to breakaways or odd-man rushes against. And it's not like Malik's passes are springing people for our own breakaways, most often the BEST thing that happens is we get it out of the zone. And the worst thing that can happen is really bad.
Id like to challenge you on this. Count them in a game some time soon, and compare that number to someone else's.

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Originally Posted by NYROrtsFan View Post
Nobody can figure out the Malik thing it seems, but does it really matter anymore? The bottom line is that good things happen when he's on the ice and with the team... They win games when he dresses and obviously, his whole career good things have happened when he's on the ice.

Does it really matter how he does it? Even if it is pure luck, it is still good for the Rangers.
There is not much to figure out, he is extremely underrated obviously. Comments like "worse then useless" speaks for themselfs. Replaceable? Defenitly. Really bad the first handful of weeks this season? Yes. But last season and right now?

First of all its that factor that everyone always trys to find someone to blame a goal against on, a goal against is unexceptable in many fans opinion. There are 7 goals on avg scored in a hockey game, all thoose are scored after misstakes, still its like some fans always are suprised that our team can make such a big misstake that a goal is scored...

Many also doesn't seem to grip what the game in the NHL is about these days.

The team with the 2nd best defense in the league got Zubov, Boucher, Robidas, Modry, Daley and Sydor on their blueline. Look at Carolina's blueline last season, Frantisek Kaberle in a major role! Buffalo are the top team in the league this season and got Campbell, Numminen, Lydman, Spacek, Tallinder and Kallinin. A huge majority of the bluelineers on thoose teams were/are puckmoving D's.

Shipping the puck out, or just getting it out of the zone is a really bad option today, it will come right back at you and there is no option to hook and slash these days.

Malik never gets any cred for his defensive play. He covers allot of ice alone with his size, takes away allot of passing lanes. If you go up against someone 6'6 you think twice about challenging him one on one. He aren't pushed around. He is strong infront of the net.

If Malik played like he does with the old rules, I would understand the boos more. But right now he is playing avg hockey. If a forward played at the same level he would have a solid fan base on here, without a doubt. He is playing at a slightly higher level then Rucchin did last season but in a much bigger role. You don't boo a D who is playing avg hockey, especially when he doesn't have any more in him...

I hate to always have to add this. I am not a big Malik fan, defenitly wouldn't mind seeing him replaced. I got a big problem with his mobility. Just like I had with Rucchin for example, who also had a bunch of big flaws. But booing Malik is just childish, it humiliates the organization and fans of the NYR some. Just like booing Weekes did before hed even played a single game... The home/away record speeks for itself. And when the same loudmouth lets the reffs screw us time after time at home without making a sound it kind of pisses me off.

I do wonder what Prucha thought when he were jumped by 3 players 6'5+ against Toronto, and the reffs gives him the penalty. Nobody in the stands supports him. And while he is in the penalty box, Malik wins the puck, takes it up ice and dumps it in, and gets booed.


Last edited by Ola: 02-13-2007 at 12:30 PM.
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Old
02-13-2007, 12:31 PM
  #53
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Most of the NYR fans do not understand the game of hockey. Canadian and Euro fans of the Rangers are in better position since some of them play or played the game. I think the misunderstanding comes from football where defenders are expected to level the player that carries the ball. That is why Ds like Kaspar were so popular since they act like secondary or safety in football. Malik does not look intimidating enough to many. Neither was Poti. I wont comment on Driver. People expect the defenseman to STOP the opposition forward at least most of the time. Some players can do that, but there are only a few things D could be blamed for. That is is leaving the enemy player alone in front of the net and allowing the breakaway either while playing the point or giving the puck away being last man down.
Every kid that plays the game will tell you that it is goalie's job to stop the puck. The D job is to get it out of his end. No one suggests here to let the opposition in the zone freely, but the team will win more games with Ds able to get the puck out of their end fast even if they rely on goalie to stop the puck, then the team that tries to go after every opposition guy that enters the zone.
Malik is not a HOF material. But he is an OK D-man with good goalie backing him up (like so many other Ds in NHL). Rangers winning or loosing depends on that back up. Thus good goaltending of Lundqvist is the true reason for two wins. Malik's game might have gone a notch up, but not to the point to make any difference.


Last edited by 94now: 02-13-2007 at 12:52 PM.
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02-13-2007, 12:37 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mugerya View Post
Does anyone have stats on the number of goals scored against every player while on the ice?
I don't, but I am sure they would be really good for Malik. He had like a 18 game stretch this season when only one goal were scored against him 5 on 5.

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Originally Posted by Mugerya View Post
I disagree, Malik was loved last season despite not being physical. This argument has nothing to do with his lack of physicality and everything to do with poor decisions. If he just played mistake-free and unspectacular hockey (little risk/little reward if you will) the Garden would be happy. We don't expect much from Marek, just to be safe, steady and competent in own end. There aren't many guys on the team being asked for less, he isn't delivering anyway, hence the boos.
Malik were really starting to get booed before the goal against Washington last season.

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Originally Posted by Mugerya View Post
Roszival can do it without the constant turnovers, so I don't see why it is unreasonable to expect Malik to be responsible. If fact, the best case scenerio for that defensive pair is to have one guy who is the puck carrier, the offensive-defenseman while the other guy is the safe, stay at home guy. If Roszival is going to be the puck mover than Malik should just sit back and make the safe pass to the open teammate, let one of the other 4 players use their better offensive skills to move the puck.
If we had Dan Boyle or Thomas Kaberle that would defenitly work, though Rozival don't got that mobility. He can read the play and got good timming stepping up and finding holes. But he can't beat forecheckers on a shift by shift basis with his skating.

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Originally Posted by 94now View Post
Most of the NYR fans do not understand the game of hockey. Canadian and Euro fans of the Rangers are in better position since some of them play or played the game.
I don't know. There are coaches who are selfmade so to speak, not having played the game. I think the points everyone brings up in this thread are dead-on, and allot of people understands the game really well. But don't always got any perspective, and the bottomline becomes strange.


Last edited by Ola: 02-13-2007 at 12:43 PM.
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02-13-2007, 01:03 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Ola View Post
Id like to challenge you on this. Count them in a game some time soon, and compare that number to someone else's.
What I said was, Malik doesn't complete 90% of his RISKY passes. That's impossible to quantify, but the point is he shouldn't try so many risky passes, he's proven to be a poor decision-maker.

And again, the risk/reward ratio is just too low on his RISKY passes. If they succeed we're out of the zone. If not, the other team has a scoring chance.

His risky passes are not worth the risk.

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02-13-2007, 01:08 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ola View Post
allot of people understands the game really well.
That's why I come in here...
However, one may be passionate about the game, spend huge portion of life around it, but still be far from understanding. I didn't want to offend anybody

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02-13-2007, 01:13 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dave4 View Post
What I said was, Malik doesn't complete 90% of his RISKY passes. That's impossible to quantify, but the point is he shouldn't try so many risky passes, he's proven to be a poor decision-maker.

And again, the risk/reward ratio is just too low on his RISKY passes. If they succeed we're out of the zone. If not, the other team has a scoring chance.

His risky passes are not worth the risk.
Your are correct. However it is difficult for the player to realize that whatever worked well last year, doesn't this year. So called non risky passes are less surprising too... It is coaching staff fault more than his,IMO. Or may be they try to break through the difficulties. You will never get anything done without trying.

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02-13-2007, 01:15 PM
  #58
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In regards to Malik's high risk passes out of the zone, I have never been much of a fan. That's just something you should not do. In the defensive zone you need to revert to a more conservative style of play.

I hold my breath every time I see Malik send the puck right through the middle for an attempt at a breakout pass.

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02-13-2007, 02:05 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Leprechaun View Post
In regards to Malik's high risk passes out of the zone, I have never been much of a fan. That's just something you should not do. In the defensive zone you need to revert to a more conservative style of play.

I hold my breath every time I see Malik send the puck right through the middle for an attempt at a breakout pass.
Yeah but you gotta love how hard Malik hustles back when he gives the puck away in his own end.


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02-13-2007, 02:14 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 94now View Post
Most of the NYR fans do not understand the game of hockey. Canadian and Euro fans of the Rangers are in better position since some of them play or played the game.
Yes I totally agree.

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02-13-2007, 02:31 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by dave4 View Post
Yeah but you gotta love how hard Malik hustles back when he gives the puck away in his own end.

Even on the occasion that he does, he's about as quick as a boat on dry land

But again, when he's playing at his best, he is relatively solid.

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02-13-2007, 03:40 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by dave4 View Post
Stats only tell you so much. You have to watch the game to understand.
Stats confirm to me that Crosby is the best player in the NHL just like it looks. They also confirm that Jagr is our best offensive player. Perhaps you think that Adam Hall is better than both of them.

I think I've missed 3 Ranger games so far this year and would guess that I've seen far more games than you have in our respective lifetimes.

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02-13-2007, 03:48 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by chosen View Post
Stats confirm to me that Crosby is the best player in the NHL just like it looks. They also confirm that Jagr is our best offensive player. Perhaps you think that Adam Hall is better than both of them.

I think I've missed 3 Ranger games so far this year and would guess that I've seen far more games than you have in our respective lifetimes.
Well unfortunately for me I'm pretty old, so you may be wrong there! I've had the NHL Center Ice package for years...I watch a lot of hockey.

Listen I don't want to argue, we're on the same side, we want the Rangers to win...now and in the future.

My main point is that Marek Malik somehow has numbers that put him at or near the top regarding defensemen, and he's not a top NHL defenseman. You didn't respond to my Pronger analogy, but I assume since you've been watching the games you'd rather have Pronger than Malik, even though you can make the argument Malik has better numbers this year.

I kinda feel the way you said in the other thread. I think Malik is...OK. I hate that he doesn't hustle, but he does make good use of his long reach. I think he's usually pretty dependable with the puck, but he brain cramps too often and makes Lundqvist come up with a big save. I just wish he'd bust his butt to get back when he gives the puck away...he doesn't.

Bottom line is I think we should see if we can get something really good for Malik. It's possible a team will overpay for a guy like him as they prepare for the stretch run.

Cheers.

Oh, and just an FYI, I think Adam Hall was terrible.

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02-13-2007, 03:58 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by dave4 View Post
Again, you're relying on a statistic, when so many of us can see with our eyes how bad he's playing.

Let me ask you a question...who is better, Chris Pronger or Marek Malik? Pronger is +23 on a team that is +43 overall. Malik is +21 on a team that is +3 overall. Malik is obviously much better!

So why isn't Brian Burke on the phone RIGHT NOW suggesting a Malik/Pronger swap? If Malik is +21 on a mediocre team like the Rangers, surely he would be much higher than Pronger's measly +23 with a powerful team like the Ducks. Put Malik with Niedermayer instead of Rozsival, and he may set a new +/- record!

Yet Sather's phone continues to not ring. Uh oh, maybe Burke has the Center Ice package and actually watches the games.

And I can make this comment about a LOT of defensemen in the league, that are clearly better than Malik.

Don't get too caught up in statistics dude, especially +/-.
What you are doing in this post is called creating a strawman and then knocking it down. It has nothing to do with the topic but I understand your need to try a tactic like that when you admit that you can't understand why Malik has such a good plus/minus. You're frustrated because your perception does not match the results.

Your earlier statements that he constantly and consistently screws up are obviously blatantly wrong. If he played the way you maintain he does he would be minus 20 and he would be permanently attached to the bench or traded.

Plus/minus was long an overrated way of judging a player's performance. It cannot be carried from team to team as a measuring stick. It does serve at least some role in measuring performance within a team. It's not a final arbiter but it is an indicator.

This is only one of the reasons your Pronger tale is nonsense. Of course Pronger is better than Malik. You got me; I admit it for all to see; Pronger is better than Malik! I've seen the light. Hallelujah!

For the 5th or 6th time, I don't think Malik is anything special, but he fits his role beautifully with the other Czechs. One of the ways you have to evaluate a player is how he affects those around him. He obviously is in the plus column (not by the numbers in this case) by the way he plays with Rozsival and the other Czechs.

Just because you cannot see or understand the positive nuances of Malik does not mean that they do not exist.

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02-13-2007, 04:23 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chosen View Post
What you are doing in this post is called creating a strawman and then knocking it down. It has nothing to do with the topic but I understand your need to try a tactic like that when you admit that you can't understand why Malik has such a good plus/minus. You're frustrated because your perception does not match the results.

Your earlier statements that he constantly and consistently screws up are obviously blatantly wrong. If he played the way you maintain he does he would be minus 20 and he would be permanently attached to the bench or traded.

Plus/minus was long an overrated way of judging a player's performance. It cannot be carried from team to team as a measuring stick. It does serve at least some role in measuring performance within a team. It's not a final arbiter but it is an indicator.

This is only one of the reasons your Pronger tale is nonsense. Of course Pronger is better than Malik. You got me; I admit it for all to see; Pronger is better than Malik! I've seen the light. Hallelujah!

For the 5th or 6th time, I don't think Malik is anything special, but he fits his role beautifully with the other Czechs. One of the ways you have to evaluate a player is how he affects those around him. He obviously is in the plus column (not by the numbers in this case) by the way he plays with Rozsival and the other Czechs.

Just because you cannot see or understand the positive nuances of Malik does not mean that they do not exist.
What you are doing in this post is called personally attacking a fellow Ranger fan who happens to have a different opinion than you about a particular player. I hope you have as much venom for Islander fans.

I tried to extend an olive branch to you in my last post and I guess you weren't interested. Fine. I'm not going to argue directly with you anymore, as I don't enjoy it as much as you seem to.

You think Malik is great or OK or works beautifully with the Czechs or whatever. Great. Enjoy him. That's your opinion and that's awesome.

I think he's less than great but has some stats at the moment that might make him look great to another team, so we should at the very least find out what we can get for him at the trade deadline. We may be pleasantly surprised. That's my opinion and condescending posts from you will not change it.

I'm agreeing to disagree and that's it. I'm not going to try to disrespect you as you did me.

But I'll be in section 331 on the 22nd if you feel the need to discuss it further.

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02-13-2007, 04:29 PM
  #66
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Chosen, you never responded to my last post, but do you think playing Gerardi on the first line would be any different? You could literally put just about any defenseman on our first line and get the same results. It's the line, not the player, and it would be an even better one without Malik. They play keep away with the puck most of the time, and so Malik ends up looking bettter for it. I can almost gaurantee, (if there was a stat that measured this) that Hank faces the fewest amount of shots when the first line is on the ice. Does Malik sometimes make good plays? Of course, but he's more bad than good. A slow defenseman who doesn't use his body, has no shot, and turns over the puck often is pointless in a new NHL where speed, and quick transitions, are everything.

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02-13-2007, 04:33 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by WheresBarnaby View Post
Chosen, you never responded to my last post, but do you think playing Gerardi on the first line would be any different? You could literally put just about any defenseman on our first line and get the same results. It's the line, not the player, and it would be an even better one without Malik. They play keep away with the puck most of the time, and so Malik ends up looking bettter for it. I can almost gaurantee, (if there was a stat that measured this) that Hank faces the fewest amount of shots when the first line is on the ice. Does Malik sometimes make good plays? Of course, but he's more bad than good. A slow defenseman who doesn't use his body, has no shot, and turns over the puck often is pointless in a new NHL where speed, and quick transitions, are everything.
You forgot to mention all of Malik's lazy hooking and holding penalties because he stops skating.

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02-13-2007, 04:34 PM
  #68
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My feeling on Malik is that sometimes he will make a really good play using his reach and has his nice passes but there have been several times this season where he has been caught up the ice and has also had some bad giveaways. I also think that he should use the body a little bit more and reduce the amount of penalties that he takes. He is definitely my least favorite Ranger but somehow the Rangers do find ways to win with him in the lineup.... it boggles my mind.

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02-13-2007, 04:35 PM
  #69
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You forgot to mention all of Malik's lazy hooking and holding penalties because he stops skating.
Oh no, I mentioned that on page two towards the bottom, lol.

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02-13-2007, 05:02 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by WheresBarnaby View Post
Chosen, you never responded to my last post, but do you think playing Gerardi on the first line would be any different? You could literally put just about any defenseman on our first line and get the same results. It's the line, not the player, and it would be an even better one without Malik. They play keep away with the puck most of the time, and so Malik ends up looking bettter for it. I can almost gaurantee, (if there was a stat that measured this) that Hank faces the fewest amount of shots when the first line is on the ice. Does Malik sometimes make good plays? Of course, but he's more bad than good. A slow defenseman who doesn't use his body, has no shot, and turns over the puck often is pointless in a new NHL where speed, and quick transitions, are everything.
I defenitly don't belive that. Even when Tyutin is out there with the top line the results aren't the same, and Toots is allot more skilled then Malik. Toots is allot better fit with Shannys line then what Malik would bee, without a doubt. But thats not the issue here.

Making the right plays out of your own end is allot harder then people thinks. It doesn't look fancy, but pretty much all the time its devestating to make a pass one second too fast or one second too slow. You often got three players open with the puck, but if you pass to two of them they will be checked right when they get the puck.

Malik have developed great chemistry with the top unit. He knows how they want it. Extremely talented players like Jagr and Co got a purpose behind everything they do, especially at this age. You need to be able to read what purpose Jagr got, what purpose Nylander got, and play after that.

If Straka bolts out and gets open, but Nyls and JJ goes low to skate it out, sending a long pass to Straka, even if he is open, will result in a lost puck, a counterattack against, and atleast half a minute of lost offensive hockey from JJ. Nyls and Jagr and co aren't winning the puck back in the neutral zone.

Thoose things takes time to learn, it takes experience, it takes timming, it takes hockeysense ect.

I have several times noticed how Toots have struggled in that aspect when he have been on the ice with Jagr. He have often tried to challenge forecheckers at the wrong time, tryed to go long for Straka when Nyls and JJ haven't been in positiong, tryed to find Jagr when JJ absolutely didn't want the puck. JJ got his spots were he wants the puck, were he demands it, but in some situations he doesn't want it at all.

A example that I have notice is when JJ changes sides, from right to left in the transition play in his own end. Many guys in that spot, often centers, want the pass pretty much at center ice with speed, JJ wants the puck after he have reached the left side and have turned up, not at center ice, he never goes over to the left side unless he got time and room to turn up. Roszival and Malik always delivers it to him when he have reached the left side, but I especially remember one situation where Toots were on the ice with JJ and passed him before he had turned up on the left side and JJ abruptly stopped, despite not beeing checked and sent it back to Ward and they had to start over. JJ probably knows that he aren't agile enough with his body to turn and accelrate fast enough in a situation like that so he never puts himself in that situation, he want the puck with the face toward the other net.

Malik executes poorly at times. But he got the timming right, he thinks the game like thoose guys, he really got good chemistry there. Its easy to study it watching on TV, but its allot harder to read what purpose Jagr got on the ice when you are pressured by forecheckers ect. Malik does that well, and with Nylander too. Nyls gets allot more pucks to work with from Malik alone then he have from Rachunek and Ward the last two games combined.

You can notice it comparing how it looks when the top unit is out there with Malik and Roszival, and compare that to the odd shifts they get with other pairings. With the former they look smooth, the transitition game always moves on pretty easy. Though as soon as they get a shift with other D's, it looks choppy, they have to force it ect.

Girardi could never even remotly replace him there. First of all he have never played that kind of hockey. All his coaches have in many situations thaught him to do the opposite of how the top unit wants it. I think you need to have either world class poise, or allot of experience, to be able to learn to play with them. I strongly belive that Marc Staal got that potential, his poise is world class, really really great. Of the other young D's in the world I think Eric Johnson also might cut it, not Jack Johnsson or Bourdon among others. Other then them there is just a bunch of vets, who have learned the trade. Poti had problems with it, and if anything thoose aspects were his strengths...

Though IMO Pck, Grardi and co aren't even close.


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02-13-2007, 05:13 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Ola View Post
If we had Dan Boyle or Thomas Kaberle that would defenitly work, though Rozival don't got that mobility. He can read the play and got good timming stepping up and finding holes. But he can't beat forecheckers on a shift by shift basis with his skating.
I agree about Roszival, but dispite his shortcomings he still doesn't turn the puck over at the same frequency Malik does. What I am saying is you don't have to be Bobby Orr or his partner, you just have to be smart... as in don't make a blind backhanded pass through the center of the defensive zone... or don't hold the puck until 2 forecheckers pressure you and dump it behind the net when your partner is leaving the zone... Something like that.

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02-13-2007, 06:17 PM
  #72
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Not sure if anyone touched on this but its really weird how Mailk is +21 and leads the team, while Tyutin is -12 and is the worst on the squad.

We've all thought for the most part that Tyutin's been the most solid defensman thorughout the year.

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02-13-2007, 07:24 PM
  #73
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Jagr's line...

probably has scorerd about that many more ES goals than whatever line Tyutin has been out there. Perhaps not as many, but that's a start.

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02-14-2007, 03:42 AM
  #74
Ola
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Originally Posted by Mugerya View Post
I agree about Roszival, but dispite his shortcomings he still doesn't turn the puck over at the same frequency Malik does. What I am saying is you don't have to be Bobby Orr or his partner, you just have to be smart... as in don't make a blind backhanded pass through the center of the defensive zone... or don't hold the puck until 2 forecheckers pressure you and dump it behind the net when your partner is leaving the zone... Something like that.
I can't argue against that.

The penaltys and braincramps of course can't be excused.

The lack of physical play can be excused but at the same time, that excuse aren't flattering (lack of foot speed ect).

In the end I do hope that Staal is given a real shot with Roszival next season, and that Malik are traded in a Steve Rucchin type of deal (lot of Rucchin in this trade ), were we can get a pick for him.

My point in this thread is just that I belive its prefectly understandable why Renney are playing Malik with Roszival over Girardi, Pck, Lampman and Baranka to name a few. And I don't see a need to boo Malik, thats something I think hurts the team allot...

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Old
02-14-2007, 06:45 AM
  #75
DutchShamrock
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ola View Post
I can't argue against that.

The penaltys and braincramps of course can't be excused.

The lack of physical play can be excused but at the same time, that excuse aren't flattering (lack of foot speed ect).

In the end I do hope that Staal is given a real shot with Roszival next season, and that Malik are traded in a Steve Rucchin type of deal (lot of Rucchin in this trade ), were we can get a pick for him.

My point in this thread is just that I belive its prefectly understandable why Renney are playing Malik with Roszival over Girardi, Pck, Lampman and Baranka to name a few. And I don't see a need to boo Malik, thats something I think hurts the team allot...
Ok, I think we are seeing eye to eye. I was big on Malik last year, so I don't have problems with him playing with Roszival. I didn't like the fans booing Weekes before games last year, so I agree that those actions are counterproductive. I don't have problems with his physical actions in games (hitting, no goals, no highlight reel passes), I have a problem with his decisions. The good thing about that is he can correct it if he just gets his head in the right place.

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