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Rumor Thread 3.0: Gagner fit for a King?

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Old
02-24-2014, 02:17 PM
  #801
joestevens29
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Originally Posted by Soundwave View Post
Sam's a good player. He will do well/OK elsewhere just like Cogliano has, this just isn't a great fit for him here.

When we drafted so many small-ish/skill first players it was likely we were simply going to have to trade some of them, and that's basically where we are at now.
Which is all fine and dandy, but is trading him for Henrique any better?

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02-24-2014, 02:19 PM
  #802
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Originally Posted by tv14 View Post
"Sponge" Henrique has a 0.46 ppg this, "non-sponge" Gagner has a ppg of 0.51 this year. Over an 82 game season thats a whopping 4 more points for Gagner. Even taking their career average ppg, and applying it to an 82 game season, Gagner scores only 6 more points. Now look at the offences both play for, and I don't think its fair to call one a sponge, and one not.

Plus I dont think we should be looking for the highest scoring 2nd line centre possible. This is a position that we can fill with someone with a solid 2-way game and sacrifice a little bit offensively as we have enough offensive players around him to make up for it.
Been saying this since the Yakupov draft, we don't need high end centers when we have 4 really good offensive wingers. We need two way centers with muscle who can retrieve the puck and have some average passing/playmaking skills. If I had it my way I'd have had the Oiler lineup looking something like this.

Hall-Berglund-Yakupov
Perron-Couturier-Eberle
Penner-Bozak-Hemsky
Gazdic-Hendricks-Jones/Smyth

I want to see two way guys down the middle, that's how you win championships. Obviously we would have picked Couturier in the 2011 draft and traded for Berglund. Added Penner through UFA.

People need to stop falling in love with point producers and start falling in love with good two way guys. I'd take a Jonathan Toews over a Malkin every day of the week.

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02-24-2014, 02:23 PM
  #803
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Originally Posted by nexttothemoon View Post
One thing that I think is overrated about the Oilers in general is their offensive abilities.

Even the media likes to point out the Oilers are offensively strong and it's the defense that needs help.

Well the truth is they are NOT that good offensively... it's just that they are worse defensively.

They were 20th in offense 2 seasons ago, they were 18th in offense last season and this year they are down to 20th in offense again.

They are essentially a BAD defensive team and a mediocre offensive team.

Yes they have slightly more upside potentially offensively... but if they trade pieces away like Yak/Eberle (and yes even Gagner)... they DO NOT have enough depth to be better than mediocre offensively.


I think that's actually one of the main problems with this team... not just that they are defensively bad but that they don't have enough offensive firepower to overcome those deficiencies in their own end.

I think better defense would make the offense perform better as well but obviously if they remove solid offensive pieces they are creating a void there as well... it's not as easy a fix as some seem to feel (again especially outside media viewpoints who have too much of a black/white view on what ails this team).
The Oiler's offensive problem isn't with their forwards IMO(they do suck defensively though), its with the fact that they get absolutely no offence from the defencemen. Go back through the last few years and I doubt our defence corps has been above 25th in the league in scoring.

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02-24-2014, 03:13 PM
  #804
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Originally Posted by nexttothemoon View Post
One thing that I think is overrated about the Oilers in general is their offensive abilities.

Even the media likes to point out the Oilers are offensively strong and it's the defense that needs help.

Well the truth is they are NOT that good offensively... it's just that they are worse defensively.

They were 20th in offense 2 seasons ago, they were 18th in offense last season and this year they are down to 20th in offense again.

They are essentially a BAD defensive team and a mediocre offensive team.

Yes they have slightly more upside potentially offensively... but if they trade pieces away like Yak/Eberle (and yes even Gagner)... they DO NOT have enough depth to be better than mediocre offensively.


I think that's actually one of the main problems with this team... not just that they are defensively bad but that they don't have enough offensive firepower to overcome those deficiencies in their own end.

I think better defense would make the offense perform better as well but obviously if they remove solid offensive pieces they are creating a void there as well... it's not as easy a fix as some seem to feel (again especially outside media viewpoints who have too much of a black/white view on what ails this team).
To me though our lack of getting into the top 10 offensively is tied to our d-men.

Which of our d-men can produce consitent break out passes without turning it over.

Our breakouts consist of wrapping it around the boards or a flick off the glass and hoping for a break.

None of our d-men can carry the puck out of the zone either consistently.

When teams say we're weak defensively I think of it two ways. Not just defensive game, I'm thinking the offensive output from our D-Men.

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02-24-2014, 03:17 PM
  #805
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Originally Posted by Ghostbuster View Post
To me though our lack of getting into the top 10 offensively is tied to our d-men.

Which of our d-men can produce consitent break out passes without turning it over.

Our breakouts consist of wrapping it around the boards or a flick off the glass and hoping for a break.

None of our d-men can carry the puck out of the zone either consistently.

When teams say we're weak defensively I think of it two ways. Not just defensive game, I'm thinking the offensive output from our D-Men.
100% agree a defence that can quickly and accurately break out the forwards is the key to a top 5 offence. that and the PP

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02-24-2014, 03:20 PM
  #806
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Originally Posted by Ghostbuster View Post
To me though our lack of getting into the top 10 offensively is tied to our d-men.

Which of our d-men can produce consitent break out passes without turning it over.

Our breakouts consist of wrapping it around the boards or a flick off the glass and hoping for a break.

None of our d-men can carry the puck out of the zone either consistently.

When teams say we're weak defensively I think of it two ways. Not just defensive game, I'm thinking the offensive output from our D-Men.
And they can't hold the puck in and maintain any kind of presence or pressure in the o-zone either.

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02-24-2014, 03:41 PM
  #807
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And they can't hold the puck in and maintain any kind of presence or pressure in the o-zone either.
Having some better Dmen will help with that too.

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02-24-2014, 03:41 PM
  #808
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Originally Posted by raab View Post
Been saying this since the Yakupov draft, we don't need high end centers when we have 4 really good offensive wingers. We need two way centers with muscle who can retrieve the puck and have some average passing/playmaking skills. If I had it my way I'd have had the Oiler lineup looking something like this.

Hall-Berglund-Yakupov
Perron-Couturier-Eberle
Penner-Bozak-Hemsky
Gazdic-Hendricks-Jones/Smyth

I want to see two way guys down the middle, that's how you win championships. Obviously we would have picked Couturier in the 2011 draft and traded for Berglund. Added Penner through UFA.

People need to stop falling in love with point producers and start falling in love with good two way guys. I'd take a Jonathan Toews over a Malkin every day of the week.
That's overkill for 2-way centers, then people would be saying "why do have all that talent on the wings and no big time center for them to play with?". Couturier + Bozak/Gordon would be more than good enough.

They should have traded up in the draft to take both RNH and Couturier.

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Old
02-24-2014, 03:52 PM
  #809
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Originally Posted by Ghostbuster View Post
To me though our lack of getting into the top 10 offensively is tied to our d-men.

Which of our d-men can produce consitent break out passes without turning it over.

Our breakouts consist of wrapping it around the boards or a flick off the glass and hoping for a break.

None of our d-men can carry the puck out of the zone either consistently.

When teams say we're weak defensively I think of it two ways. Not just defensive game, I'm thinking the offensive output from our D-Men.
Petry can rush the puck. I agree otherwise though

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02-24-2014, 03:55 PM
  #810
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Originally Posted by Soundwave View Post
That's overkill for 2-way centers, then people would be saying "why do have all that talent on the wings and no big time center for them to play with?". Couturier + Bozak/Gordon would be more than good enough.

They should have traded up in the draft to take both RNH and Couturier.
I agree with that, but even still I think you could win with 3 above average 2 way guys. I mean look at a team like St. Louis. People say St. Louis needs a top end center, I disagree, if I'm St. Louis I'd be looking at adding a guy like Vanek for the playoff push. Can you imagine if St. Louis had a guy like Hall playing next to Backes and Oshie. How the hell would you stop him on LW with those guys?

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02-24-2014, 04:03 PM
  #811
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Originally Posted by raab View Post
I agree with that, but even still I think you could win with 3 above average 2 way guys. I mean look at a team like St. Louis. People say St. Louis needs a top end center, I disagree, if I'm St. Louis I'd be looking at adding a guy like Vanek for the playoff push. Can you imagine if St. Louis had a guy like Hall playing next to Backes and Oshie. How the hell would you stop him on LW with those guys?
While I don't disagree, I wouldn't use St.Louis as some blueprint of success. They haven't won anything.

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02-24-2014, 04:13 PM
  #812
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While I don't disagree, I wouldn't use St.Louis as some blueprint of success. They haven't won anything.
That's the problem with having a lack of 1st line talent like they do. When you need guys to step up and play at an elite level, you don't have anyone that can

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Old
02-24-2014, 04:14 PM
  #813
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Originally Posted by ChaoticOrange View Post
While I don't disagree, I wouldn't use St.Louis as some blueprint of success. They haven't won anything.
Could argue LA and Boston although Krejci some would say isn't really a two way guy. LA definitely has 3 in Kopitar-Richards-Stoll, although Kopitar is at a higher level then anyone I mentioned.

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02-24-2014, 04:24 PM
  #814
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100% agree a defence that can quickly and accurately break out the forwards is the key to a top 5 offence.
It's also a key to better defense, quite frankly.

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Old
02-24-2014, 04:46 PM
  #815
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Originally Posted by The Nuge View Post
Petry can rush the puck. I agree otherwise though
Petry may be the exception to that.

I'm also hoping J. Schultz can develop that skill. He has shown glimpses. Same with Marincin.

That still leaves us with 3, maybe 4 offensively inept d-men.

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02-24-2014, 05:54 PM
  #816
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I think the Oilers should get proactive and sign Scrivens now. Not sure who else they may be thinking of for next season but I don't see how he hasn't won over some confidence in him. Shouldn't take big money, maybe 3 years at 2.5 for each(?), or even 4 years at 3? or maybe go bold and even longer, take a risk and try to get some value years. I think its worth the risk, plus its not crazy money that would get us into too much trouble. Thoughts?

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02-24-2014, 05:59 PM
  #817
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The blind Petry love is wearing on me.

I was a huge Petry fan.

He has fallen apart this year.

Looks to be back on track with Maracin but really isn't playing half as well as some people are saying.

Hopefully his train wreck of a season has been because of Eakins and can be saved but right now he looks like garbage and if he plays next year like he did this year no one would want this guy on their team period.

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02-24-2014, 06:00 PM
  #818
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I disagree with alot of you J shultz does move the puck out decently our transition just wasnt the same when he was hurt.

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02-24-2014, 06:43 PM
  #819
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I've lost a lot of respect for MSL after this trade request. Also explains why Yzerman stepped down as soon as the Olympics were over.

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02-24-2014, 08:21 PM
  #820
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I've lost a lot of respect for MSL after this trade request. Also explains why Yzerman stepped down as soon as the Olympics were over.
I don't disagree with MSL at all. He's been one of the best players in the league, for YEARS, and his own GM couldn't get his back over Kunitz? He should have been on the team 4 years ago and he should have been on this team.

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02-24-2014, 08:25 PM
  #821
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I don't disagree with MSL at all. He's been one of the best players in the league, for YEARS, and his own GM couldn't get his back over Kunitz? He should have been on the team 4 years ago and he should have been on this team.
Agreed.

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Old
02-24-2014, 08:34 PM
  #822
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Which is all fine and dandy, but is trading him for Henrique any better?
Close to a wash but not only might do good for one or both players it might keep 'trade someone trade Gagner' fans quiet for a bit.

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02-24-2014, 08:37 PM
  #823
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I agree with that, but even still I think you could win with 3 above average 2 way guys. I mean look at a team like St. Louis. People say St. Louis needs a top end center, I disagree, if I'm St. Louis I'd be looking at adding a guy like Vanek for the playoff push. Can you imagine if St. Louis had a guy like Hall playing next to Backes and Oshie. How the hell would you stop him on LW with those guys?
St. Louis hasn't actually won anything (unless there's a trophy for making the playoffs) and has been beaten in the playoffs by teams that have higher end offensive centers.

Also St. Louis has some Pietranglo guy on the blueline, I think that probably has a lot to do with their success, not just their center corps.

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02-24-2014, 08:43 PM
  #824
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We have our own St. Louis on the Oilers. Compare him to Arcabello. So far Arcobello is slightly ahead in most stats comparing age.
One can only dream.

I wonder who skates faster?
Never count out the little guy.


Last edited by fuswald: 02-24-2014 at 08:58 PM.
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02-24-2014, 08:55 PM
  #825
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St. Louis hasn't actually won anything (unless there's a trophy for making the playoffs) and has been beaten in the playoffs by teams that have higher end offensive centers.

Also St. Louis has some Pietranglo guy on the blueline, I think that probably has a lot to do with their success, not just their center corps.
EDIT- Thought it was MARTIN St. Louis not St. Louis BLUES My bad

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