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Rumor Thread 3.0: Gagner fit for a King?

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Old
02-25-2014, 02:12 PM
  #876
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Originally Posted by Spawn View Post
Scrivens will be awful if they don't sign him. If they do... great, solid deal. But if not...
.
Really? Awful? Wow people overvalue 3rd round picks around here. Teams trade them for negotiating rights, we traded it for a look at a goalie and the chance to negotiate. Even if he moves on, it was a low risk move. What are the odds of a third round pick playing in the NHL? Less than 10%? The odds of Scrivens signing here are probably higher then that, I'll make that deal all day. Plus, we got a historic 59 save performance out of that deal.

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02-25-2014, 02:15 PM
  #877
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I didn't mean to include the Perron trade as mid round picks.

Scrivens will be awful if they don't sign him. If they do... great, solid deal. But if not...
Will go along with trading a 3rd and two 4th last year for Fistric, Brown and Smithson. At least Brown returned a 4th rounder this year.
So the Oilers can draft a Cameron Abney replacement amirite? A third round pick is great value for the negotiating rights for a starting goalie.

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02-25-2014, 02:20 PM
  #878
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I don't know why people are counting out the possibility for a draft pick -> NHLer type of trade with the picks they might get from Hemsky, Schultz or whatever.

Guys like Micheal Frolik, Dave Bolland, Tyler Kennedy, Devin Setoguchi, Kris Russell, TJ Galiardi, etc. were all picked up fairly cheaply with draft picks in the last year or so.

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02-25-2014, 02:24 PM
  #879
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Originally Posted by raab View Post
MacT quickly proving he has no plan and is just as much of a dufus as the last GM. Can anyone make a photo of the 3 stooges with MacT, Howson, and Lowe, I feel like I'm watching an episode of that old show any time I hear any news about the Oilers these days.
He's shown he can identify weaknesses (went after Schneider and Bernier in the offseason while posters, myself included, were defending Dubnyk), identify and fill needs (Gordon), trade away futures for proven NHLers (Perron), take some risks (Belov), move on when he realizes he's made a mistake (LaBarbera+Dubnyk), and is capable of fixing those mistakes (Bryzgalov+Scrivens). Just because there's no Ryan Suter in free agency begging to sign with the Oilers and no Jordan Staal forcing a trade to Edmonton doesn't mean MacT isn't doing his job. It just means that the pieces we need most aren't available for a reasonable price. At least he's actively trying to improve the club, which is more than we can say about Tambo.

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02-25-2014, 02:28 PM
  #880
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I don't know why people are counting out the possibility for a draft pick -> NHLer type of trade with the picks they might get from Hemsky, Schultz or whatever.

Guys like Micheal Frolik, Dave Bolland, Tyler Kennedy, Devin Setoguchi, Kris Russell, TJ Galiardi, etc. were all picked up fairly cheaply with draft picks in the last year or so.
Because MacT will probaly use the draft picks for overpayment on ex-Oil Kings or to trade up for extra 6th and 7th rounder. BOLD.

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02-25-2014, 02:30 PM
  #881
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Because MacT will probaly use the draft picks for overpayment on ex-Oil Kings or to trade up for extra 6th and 7th rounder. BOLD.
I guess we can only hope?

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02-25-2014, 02:30 PM
  #882
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Originally Posted by dnicks17 View Post
I don't know why people are counting out the possibility for a draft pick -> NHLer type of trade with the picks they might get from Hemsky, Schultz or whatever.

Guys like Micheal Frolik, Dave Bolland, Tyler Kennedy, Devin Setoguchi, Kris Russell, TJ Galiardi, etc. were all picked up fairly cheaply with draft picks in the last year or so.
I suspect that is going to be one thing MacT tries. It's easier to move picks than prospects at times, especially at the draft.

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02-25-2014, 02:31 PM
  #883
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Originally Posted by Soundwave View Post
St. Louis hasn't actually won anything (unless there's a trophy for making the playoffs) and has been beaten in the playoffs by teams that have higher end offensive centers.

Also St. Louis has some Pietranglo guy on the blueline, I think that probably has a lot to do with their success, not just their center corps.
Do you think St. Louis would have been beaten if they had a game breaker like Hall on the top line. Hell even Hall and Eberle on the top line with Backes as a center would scare the crap out of me. I'll argue day and night that you don't need an Elite #1 center to win a cup but you do need to be top 5-10 in the league for center depth with a great defence and above average goalie.


Last edited by raab: 02-25-2014 at 02:42 PM.
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02-25-2014, 02:35 PM
  #884
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And then they traded down with a high second to a lower second in order to pick up mid round picks in the draft. It's poor asset management.
That remains to be seen, and I'd argue on paper it's actually good (or at least intriguing) asset management. At the time he received a lot of praise, as fans of statistics pointed out the odds of a draft pick playing in the NHL is fairly static once you exit the first round... the argument goes that more mid round picks is better than fewer, even if they are a bit lower than what you traded away, because your odds of getting an NHL player actually increase.

Now I'm not saying this is ideal, and good scouting still gives those picks value. But MacT hasn't entirely abandoned this approach either. He only made the initial trade once Fucale was off the board.

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02-25-2014, 02:39 PM
  #885
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Reports from Boston is that Malcolm Subban is available for the right price

http://bostonherald.com/sports/bruin...ain_for_subban

MacT has to be all over this.

I would do it just to make this a more attractive place for PK Subban

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02-25-2014, 02:41 PM
  #886
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Originally Posted by Trafalgar Law View Post
He's shown he can identify weaknesses (went after Schneider and Bernier in the offseason while posters, myself included, were defending Dubnyk), identify and fill needs (Gordon), trade away futures for proven NHLers (Perron), take some risks (Belov), move on when he realizes he's made a mistake (LaBarbera+Dubnyk), and is capable of fixing those mistakes (Bryzgalov+Scrivens). Just because there's no Ryan Suter in free agency begging to sign with the Oilers and no Jordan Staal forcing a trade to Edmonton doesn't mean MacT isn't doing his job. It just means that the pieces we need most aren't available for a reasonable price. At least he's actively trying to improve the club, which is more than we can say about Tambo.
Right here is why I'm upset with him. He knew Dubnyk and Labarbera were useless but waits until were basically out of the playoffs before he makes any moves to fix it. Also why the hell didn't he move Gagner in the summer like I was saying he should do. For every good move he's made, he's made an equally bad move IMO. Guy is a Dufus and is being more proactive then the last GM but that doesn't means he's any better as the results haven't been there. Hopefully he can prove me wrong this summer but I highly doubt it now that he's saying he wants draft picks.

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02-25-2014, 02:41 PM
  #887
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Originally Posted by Fixed to Ruin View Post
Reports from Boston is that Malcolm Subban is available for the right price

http://bostonherald.com/sports/bruin...ain_for_subban

MacT has to be all over this.
Can't see Hemsky being the piece that gets it done.

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02-25-2014, 02:42 PM
  #888
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Originally Posted by Fixed to Ruin View Post
Reports from Boston is that Malcolm Subban is available for the right price

http://bostonherald.com/sports/bruin...ain_for_subban

MacT has to be all over this.

I would do it just to make this a more attractive place for PK Subban
Intesting that he would be, I wonder why they might be so interested in parting with him.

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02-25-2014, 02:46 PM
  #889
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Intesting that he would be, I wonder why they might be so interested in parting with him.
From the little bit I read on the main board it sounded like they don't need a goalie anytime soon and think they could get a good piece for him. Didn't sound like they wanted to deal him for a rental though, a guy with term would be preferred.

I also don't know that he's own the block and will be dealt, just more he might be available.

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02-25-2014, 02:47 PM
  #890
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Originally Posted by Trafalgar Law View Post
He's shown he can identify weaknesses (went after Schneider and Bernier in the offseason while posters, myself included, were defending Dubnyk), identify and fill needs (Gordon), trade away futures for proven NHLers (Perron), take some risks (Belov), move on when he realizes he's made a mistake (LaBarbera+Dubnyk), and is capable of fixing those mistakes (Bryzgalov+Scrivens). Just because there's no Ryan Suter in free agency begging to sign with the Oilers and no Jordan Staal forcing a trade to Edmonton doesn't mean MacT isn't doing his job. It just means that the pieces we need most aren't available for a reasonable price. At least he's actively trying to improve the club, which is more than we can say about Tambo.
The MacT hate here is ridiculous. If he can replicate last offseason and bring in a 2 top 6 player with grit or top 4 D and a quality bottom 6 player, all while giving up lesser picks/prospects thatd be money.

MacT has been one of the most active GMs in the league this past year, and has been involved in probably 60% of all trades. Not to mention all the FAs he went after

The Smid trade was questionable, but Horak has been very good in the AHL, and Smid has further regressed in Calgary, and is one the trade block again. It will be interesting to see what Burke gets. Even giant Flames homer Kent Wilson is seeing what Oiler fans saw this season

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Incredbily, Smid might be the worse player of the twi. The erstwhile Oiler seems to have gathered himself a lot of fans during his short time here in Calgary, but I'm not one of them. Smid is fearless, can seem to absorb a lot of pain and isn't afraid to mix it up here and there, but his weaknesses easily overwhelm his strengths. Aside from O'Brien, Smid is the slowest defender on the Flames blueline. He doesn't have any offensive upside and isn't very good at moving the puck. If something goes wrong with Smid on the ice - a bad bounce, a poor decision - he can't recover.


As a result, Smid has the worst possession rate of the Flames regular defenders this year. In addition, his contract stretches for another three seasons at an average of $3.6M per year. My guess is he's a replacement level defender (at best) by the time his deal terminates in 2016-17, a year in which he'll be owed $4M in salary.


Smid's heart is willing, but the actual ability is lacking and he seems to be on a downward spiral. Burke should see if he can pull a Douglas Murray with some team at the deadline desperate for blueline grit and move Smid for whatever he can get.
Hendricks is overpaid, but has kicked started the bottom two lines and brought a lot of heart

MacT has not been shy to address our needs. He has to move one of the forwards, and I trust hell make a solid trade

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02-25-2014, 02:51 PM
  #891
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Right here is why I'm upset with him. He knew Dubnyk and Labarbera were useless but waits until were basically out of the playoffs before he makes any moves to fix it. Also why the hell didn't he move Gagner in the summer like I was saying he should do. For every good move he's made, he's made an equally bad move IMO. Guy is a Dufus and is being more proactive then the last GM but that doesn't means he's any better as the results haven't been there. Hopefully he can prove me wrong this summer but I highly doubt it now that he's saying he wants draft picks.
Because their was no goalie market? Scrivens was LAs starter for a good chunk of the year (when Dubnyk was in free fall) and only became expendable when Jones emerged and when Quick was on the come back.

He should have looked at trading Gagner last season, but what was the market for a 24 yo with RFA year left? Plus Gagner had a break out year. He was looking good in pre season before Kassian assaulted him, and has looked better recently. Maybe the jaw injury really impacted him. Burrows and Crosby were both affected by it

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02-25-2014, 03:02 PM
  #892
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Because their was no goalie market? Scrivens was LAs starter for a good chunk of the year (when Dubnyk was in free fall) and only became expendable when Jones emerged and when Quick was on the come back.

He should have looked at trading Gagner last season, but what was the market for a 24 yo with RFA year left? Plus Gagner had a break out year. He was looking good in pre season before Kassian assaulted him, and has looked better recently. Maybe the jaw injury really impacted him. Burrows and Crosby were both affected by it
Gagner won't be here when/if the Oiler's are contenders, he should have been dealt. Good teams have a blueprint of the type of team they want and the players that they want to fill those roles. Look at Boston for example they dealt Seguin even though he has a ton of upside, I highly doubt Chiarelli is losing any sleep over that deal. MacT saying he's now looking for draft picks is a step in the wrong direction. 2nd and 3rd rounders aren't going to make us a better team next year. We should be identifying guys that will and be sending out guys like Gagner, Hemsky, Schultz, etc... for guys who fill roles on the blueprint for a championship team.

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02-25-2014, 03:09 PM
  #893
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Intesting that he would be, I wonder why they might be so interested in parting with him.
my guess is rask is under 25 and arguably a top 5 goalie in the league, if subban lands then a andy macdonald or a significant piece like that then makes sense to dangle him.

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02-25-2014, 03:18 PM
  #894
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Gagner won't be here when/if the Oiler's are contenders, he should have been dealt. Good teams have a blueprint of the type of team they want and the players that they want to fill those roles. Look at Boston for example they dealt Seguin even though he has a ton of upside, I highly doubt Chiarelli is losing any sleep over that deal. MacT saying he's now looking for draft picks is a step in the wrong direction. 2nd and 3rd rounders aren't going to make us a better team next year. We should be identifying guys that will and be sending out guys like Gagner, Hemsky, Schultz, etc... for guys who fill roles on the blueprint for a championship team.
Nobody knows what teams were offering last offseason for Gagner, so how do we know he would have received a blue print type player? It could have been other small soft players or grinder bottom sixers. So while Gagner doesn't fit the blue print of a championship team, its better to hold on to a quality player while waiting for the right deal. And I have yet to see an Gagner like players being dealt for top 6 two players with size, so 29 GMs are failing at building that championship blue print

The Seguin deal was very bad, and should not be overlooked because Boston is doing well. They would have been doing better if they would have kept Seguin (they won the cup when he was there). Seguin has gone on to break out in Dallas, and this trade will come back to bite them soon rather than later. That deal would be equivalent to Eberle + Musil for Stajan and M. Reinhart.

I agree we shouldn't be looking for more picks, we should be dealing picks for players (like Perron deal). But I have yet to see MacT say he was looking for picks.

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02-25-2014, 03:29 PM
  #895
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Originally Posted by topchowda View Post

The Seguin deal was very bad, and should not be overlooked because Boston is doing well. They would have been doing better if they would have kept Seguin (they won the cup when he was there). Seguin has gone on to break out in Dallas, and this trade will come back to bite them soon rather than later. That deal would be equivalent to Eberle + Musil for Stajan and M. Reinhart. .
Who exactly is Reilly Smith in your scenario?

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02-25-2014, 03:30 PM
  #896
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Nobody knows what teams were offering last offseason for Gagner, so how do we know he would have received a blue print type player? It could have been other small soft players or grinder bottom sixers. So while Gagner doesn't fit the blue print of a championship team, its better to hold on to a quality player while waiting for the right deal. And I have yet to see an Gagner like players being dealt for top 6 two players with size, so 29 GMs are failing at building that championship blue print

The Seguin deal was very bad, and should not be overlooked because Boston is doing well. They would have been doing better if they would have kept Seguin (they won the cup when he was there). Seguin has gone on to break out in Dallas, and this trade will come back to bite them soon rather than later. That deal would be equivalent to Eberle + Musil for Stajan and M. Reinhart.

I agree we shouldn't be looking for more picks, we should be dealing picks for players (like Perron deal). But I have yet to see MacT say he was looking for picks.
He said it today after practice. And as for Gagner I would have been fine seeing him go for a dman like Gunnarsson or a bottom sixer like Clifford+. Those types of guys I can see us winning a cup with in a few years. Like I said good teams have a blueprint and go out and acquire the type of players to fill roles on there blue print even if they have to overpay to get them. For me I don't see the Oilers having any blueprint for the type of team they want to build and it seems like they're more focused on winning insignificant trades more so then building a great team and having a plan in place to do it.

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02-25-2014, 03:36 PM
  #897
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All I have to say is it's gonna take MacT longer than a year to fix the mess Tambo left this team in. We are already starting to see the pieces fit together. Well....some of us are seeing it anyhow.

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02-25-2014, 03:47 PM
  #898
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All I have to say is it's gonna take MacT longer than a year to fix the mess Tambo left this team in. We are already starting to see the pieces fit together. Well....some of us are seeing it anyhow.
Has he improved the defence at all? We still have no goalies signed past the end of this season, he really needs to get on that. Would be horrible to go into this summer without any goaltender signed. He's made a few good trades and signings but some of them were later then they should have been. Hendricks for Dubnyk(Dubnyk should have been moved in the off season for a 3rd/4th line vet grinder), Bryzgalov signing(guy was playing in the ECHL while we lost any hopes of the playoffs). This team still has a long way to go and MacT hasnt addressed goaltending or defence long term. Next year isn't looking any brighter for Oiler fans then this year if Mact can't get the defence and goaltending up to at least league average.

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02-25-2014, 04:02 PM
  #899
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He said it today after practice. And as for Gagner I would have been fine seeing him go for a dman like Gunnarsson or a bottom sixer like Clifford+. Those types of guys I can see us winning a cup with in a few years. Like I said good teams have a blueprint and go out and acquire the type of players to fill roles on there blue print even if they have to overpay to get them. For me I don't see the Oilers having any blueprint for the type of team they want to build and it seems like they're more focused on winning insignificant trades more so then building a great team and having a plan in place to do it.
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Has he improved the defence at all? We still have no goalies signed past the end of this season, he really needs to get on that. Would be horrible to go into this summer without any goaltender signed. He's made a few good trades and signings but some of them were later then they should have been. Hendricks for Dubnyk(Dubnyk should have been moved in the off season for a 3rd/4th line vet grinder), Bryzgalov signing(guy was playing in the ECHL while we lost any hopes of the playoffs). This team still has a long way to go and MacT hasnt addressed goaltending or defence long term. Next year isn't looking any brighter for Oiler fans then this year if Mact can't get the defence and goaltending up to at least league average.
Hes looking to recoup 3rd round picks, not get 2nds. We can recoup high round picks by trading N Schultz, Potter, Larsen etc who have no impact on this team and who can be replaced by Fedun or any FA really

In the offseason is the main time to revamp the defense, he brought in Ference (established top 4 D) and Belov. At that time he couldn't forsee Smid failing as much as he did, and Ference struggle in the top 4 role. Once the season starts its nearly impossible to make trades for top 4 or top 6 NHL players. It never happens.

Dubnyk was also fresh off a .920 season (13th best), not sure who would have been an upgrade at that point who was available, but they would have costed ALOT. Hindsight is 20/20 on HF. That or completely unrealistic ideas of how trades occur. MacT also went after Bernier and Schneider, who unfortuantly weren't going to be traded to a divisional rival.

Now we have Scrivens who looks to be a potential #1 goalie (top sv % in the NHL, rose on the Oilers, but small sample size).

People are expecting MacT to pull of multiple NHL 14 type deals for established top pairing D or #1 centers/ goalies. But it takes two GMs to make a deal, and their has been a lack of top pairing D being traded despite a extremely high demand for them.

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02-25-2014, 04:06 PM
  #900
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Has he improved the defence at all? We still have no goalies signed past the end of this season, he really needs to get on that. Would be horrible to go into this summer without any goaltender signed. He's made a few good trades and signings but some of them were later then they should have been. Hendricks for Dubnyk(Dubnyk should have been moved in the off season for a 3rd/4th line vet grinder), Bryzgalov signing(guy was playing in the ECHL while we lost any hopes of the playoffs). This team still has a long way to go and MacT hasnt addressed goaltending or defence long term. Next year isn't looking any brighter for Oiler fans then this year if Mact can't get the defence and goaltending up to at least league average.
He has been far from great but he has made some good moves as a rookie GM. This deadline and offseason will tell us all that we need to know about MacT as GM IMO. I'm hoping that he pulls a few rabbits out of his hat and this team is much more balanced and tougher to play against at the start of next season.

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