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How do we get better moving forward? No pun intended

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Old
02-25-2014, 03:33 PM
  #251
Soundgarden
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Byrddog View Post
I agree here but the fact we treaded for MDZ really only supports moving one of the top three. The logical choice would be Weber. Why? Because if a bidding war does start between say Philly and the Oil and perhaps Tampa wanting in as well. The haul Weber would bring would solidify the offense in a couple years and the blueline would begin to peak at this same time. Our fanbase has never been thru this, and while we would not want to actively market Weber there are teams out there that have the pieces to put together a offer that has to be considered.

Switching out a RH defender for a LH defender just solidifies our top four to make room for Seth Jones to be able to preform on his natural side and brings him a young partner who can grow with him. To me the Klein trade had more to it than just a one for one trade.

Josi-Weber
Jones/Ellis-Klein
Ekholm-Ellis/Jones
Bartley

to

Josi-Weber
MDZ-Jones
Ekholm-Ellis
Bartley

That will be a much more solid top 4 in the near future than what we had with Klein and Jones playing his off-side or on the third pairing.

As for acquiring forward talent, I think we are still in our re-tooling process, but we've seen a lot of progress. In one year we acquired Jones, Forsberg and MDZ, these are moves showing us getting younger, but we can see the fabric of the team kind of setting itself up with a future core. Trading Legwand for a first and a B prospect like Taylor Beck gets us another first and another prospect who could be on the roster this year. It also sets up Wilson moving to center permanently giving us something like this soon.

Down the middle going from

Legwand
Fisher
Spaling
Gaustad

to

Fisher
Wilson
Spaling/Gaustad
Gaustad/Watson/Tweener


There will be growing pains, but I think we're better off getting another first and trying to move up to the top 5, or even try for Reinhart if we like him best than moving Weber and waiting for everybody to hit their peak at once.

I think a lot of people are focusing on this season and the next one and not looking any further ahead, but Weber is a great player who should have a very long prime, I don't think we have to worry about our window closing to have to panic and trade Weber.

I think it's Poile's intentions are clear with the moves he's made and will potentially make at the deadline/draft. I don't think Weber will be moved barring a very big package deal and I think we can expect to see some shuffling at the deadline.

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02-25-2014, 03:49 PM
  #252
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I understand your method of thinking but I look down the road as well. Legwand is all but gone and Fish is saying 1 more year. So Down the middle there is nothing to fix that. Watson, Wilson?????? We are outside the area to have a legit shot at Reinhart, best case is going to be Nylander where the Preds will pick. And while I like the looks of Nylander he will not be ready for a while to make an impact. Whereas if the OIL overpay for Weber say Hall, RNH there first and Schultz The preds have at worst Reinhart or Ekbland with the Oil pick and Nylander with Preds pick. If DP Fenton can get another 1st or early 2nd for Leggy at the deadline more depth could be added for the future.

The top 6 has to seriously addressed now and the options are pretty slim.

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02-25-2014, 04:23 PM
  #253
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I would do a P Kane or Jonathan Toews for Weber Swap…thats about the only way I'd part with him right now

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02-25-2014, 04:30 PM
  #254
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Byrddog View Post
I understand your method of thinking but I look down the road as well. Legwand is all but gone and Fish is saying 1 more year. So Down the middle there is nothing to fix that. Watson, Wilson?????? We are outside the area to have a legit shot at Reinhart, best case is going to be Nylander where the Preds will pick. And while I like the looks of Nylander he will not be ready for a while to make an impact. Whereas if the OIL overpay for Weber say Hall, RNH there first and Schultz The preds have at worst Reinhart or Ekbland with the Oil pick and Nylander with Preds pick. If DP Fenton can get another 1st or early 2nd for Leggy at the deadline more depth could be added for the future.

The top 6 has to seriously addressed now and the options are pretty slim.
Yes, banking on Wilson to take over Legwand's spot right away would be tough, but I think in the long run we'd be a better team if we did that. We'd have a year for him to get settled in at center and find someone to replace Fisher before he hangs them up. Going out and signing a Stastny would do us wonders, I don't know if he'd sign here, but that IMO, would be the ideal scenario with Stastny as no.1 and Wilson at 2.


I think it'd be too optimistic of a scenario to say that Edmonton would give up both RNH and Hall, but if we could get one of them and one of Yak/Eberle, and a roster defender it would really improve our top 6 ,and even though our defense levels out our overall team looks like it'd contend with that core for a while.

The main concerns I'd have with trading Weber is if we'd be getting enough. We need both quality and quantity otherwise we'd have been better off sticking with Weber and watching what could be our first HOF'er in it's entirety. Weber's young enough that we could build a team around twice more.

The other concern is will Edmonton even offer that much up in the first place? If Edmonton will only go as high as either Yakupov OR Eberle and Gagner + a 1st this year does Poile take that because it's there or does he have the sense to stick it out with Weber or wait until something bigger comes along. I'm hoping that if Poile were to be taking calls for Weber, that he'd be calling the shots.

So, I see where you're coming at. Trading Weber SHOULD get us at least two top 6 forwards and a decent defenseman, but will anyone offer it? Would we be better off going the semi-conservative way that we've come to know and love by just taking picks and trying to sign UFA's? Will Jones and Josi be enough to contend for the cup without having to acquire another 25+ minute defenseman like Weber?

I'd like to see a major trade not involving Weber, but those don't happen every day. I think we could see some mid sized deals with us acquiring some 2nd tiered players with big upside, but I doubt we see the full shabang with Weber.

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02-25-2014, 04:54 PM
  #255
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I agree if a team is not willing to overpay then we have no business moving Weber. But if you can get 2/3 of a 1st line and other pieces you have to do it from the roster position there currently in. Looking from Webers point of view he has a few years for the team to become competitive before he starts to consider demanding a trade to play for a cup. I just do not see him waiting like Ignilia did to the very end of his career. There is a finite time he will wait. The front office holds all the cards now and his value is at its peak. While in two or three years hes still in his prime his trade value is less due to his playing years becoming less.

I am not concerned at all when it comes to Josi and Jones they will be able to pull the load. Both still have upside also which is very positive. There trade value is however not close to what would be needed to fix the offense.

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02-25-2014, 06:24 PM
  #256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundgarden View Post
Yes, banking on Wilson to take over Legwand's spot right away would be tough, but I think in the long run we'd be a better team if we did that. We'd have a year for him to get settled in at center and find someone to replace Fisher before he hangs them up. Going out and signing a Stastny would do us wonders, I don't know if he'd sign here, but that IMO, would be the ideal scenario with Stastny as no.1 and Wilson at 2.


I think it'd be too optimistic of a scenario to say that Edmonton would give up both RNH and Hall, but if we could get one of them and one of Yak/Eberle, and a roster defender it would really improve our top 6 ,and even though our defense levels out our overall team looks like it'd contend with that core for a while.

The main concerns I'd have with trading Weber is if we'd be getting enough. We need both quality and quantity otherwise we'd have been better off sticking with Weber and watching what could be our first HOF'er in it's entirety. Weber's young enough that we could build a team around twice more.

The other concern is will Edmonton even offer that much up in the first place? If Edmonton will only go as high as either Yakupov OR Eberle and Gagner + a 1st this year does Poile take that because it's there or does he have the sense to stick it out with Weber or wait until something bigger comes along. I'm hoping that if Poile were to be taking calls for Weber, that he'd be calling the shots.

So, I see where you're coming at. Trading Weber SHOULD get us at least two top 6 forwards and a decent defenseman, but will anyone offer it? Would we be better off going the semi-conservative way that we've come to know and love by just taking picks and trying to sign UFA's? Will Jones and Josi be enough to contend for the cup without having to acquire another 25+ minute defenseman like Weber?

I'd like to see a major trade not involving Weber, but those don't happen every day. I think we could see some mid sized deals with us acquiring some 2nd tiered players with big upside, but I doubt we see the full shabang with Weber.
I think a bidding war would involve more teams than we think.
Edmonton-needs top two defense
Anaheim-needs a #1 RHD
Philadelphia-needs Defense, getting older
Tampa Bay-could use a RHD on top pair
NYI- Could use a #1 Defenseman
Who can offer the most that would help us out?

Seems like the team would have gotten a clue when Suter and Weber both wanted the team to improve and Suter walked. I guess not because this past summer we signed people like Stalberg,Cullen, and Nystrom. More third liners. This team has got to draft better on the offensive side. We need someone to remind Poile we had two Norris caliber defensemen once before and it did not cut it. We are going to have to make some moves to improve our offense. Weber would get us the best and most players. We have Jones who is a RHD waiting to step into Weber's spot.

I like Byrddog do not see Weber waiting around long before he demands a trade. Weber just won a Gold medal with Canada, he is in Norris talks again, but we do not have the offensive pieces here or in the minors or anywhere to put on the ice to win the cup. His value will never be more than now. Trading Weber for two top sixers or more would go along way in making our team much more balanced.

This is not directed at you Soundgarden but I keep seeing this everywhere, if we trade Weber we will not become the Oilers of the Central.

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02-25-2014, 06:35 PM
  #257
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundgarden View Post
Switching out a RH defender for a LH defender just solidifies our top four ........

It also sets up Wilson moving to center permanently giving us something like this soon.

Down the middle going from

Legwand
Fisher
Spaling
Gaustad

to

Fisher
Wilson
Spaling/Gaustad
Gaustad/Watson/Tweener

.
When are we going to solidify our top six?
I like Wilson at Center but he needs some good wingers.
What about Cullen, he is signed for next year as well unless we trade him as well?

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02-25-2014, 07:31 PM
  #258
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Originally Posted by predshabs View Post
When are we going to solidify our top six?
I like Wilson at Center but he needs some good wingers.
What about Cullen, he is signed for next year as well unless we trade him as well?
I forgot about Cullen, he's in his late thirties though so I don't see him in the long term plans. If we could get a pick or decet prospect he could be gone.

We need to address our top 6, definitely, but we only have three options. Draft, UFA, and trade.

Draft will be the easiest option. Having a top 10 pick that could be top 5 will definitely help, this is a forward heavy top ten so we should get another potentially high talented forward. Getting another 1st for Legwand goes a long way too. It could help us move up, or we can stand pat and draft another forward.

On the UFA front we'll have to overpay to get what we want and I think Poile is willing to do that, the question is does a Vanek or even a Stastny want to sign with us. It's sure help, and I'd love for it to happen, but it's not something we can depend on happening.

Trade. We could probably get a top 6 talent by trading out 1st+ a good prospect/decent assets like Wilson or Ellis. Of course Weber would get the biggest haul, but he's our cornerstone locked up. He's an easy answer for fixing our crappy offense, but obviously he's our face and a top 3 player at his position. He's still young enough for us to take our time and build through the draft. The only question is if he wants to wait another year + while we get him help up front?

That line-up I posted above won't likely be the final solution to our scoring needs, but we've got fisher for another year and I think slotting Wilson at center behind him whilst looking for an upgrade for Fisher seems like a realistic move going forward. I'm not saying it's ideal or it's the best center depth we've ever had, but I just think that's what is likely to happen. It seems very Poile like.

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02-25-2014, 09:00 PM
  #259
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Fisher and Wilson doesn't look like a very bright future at center. Yawn....

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02-25-2014, 11:04 PM
  #260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundgarden View Post
I forgot about Cullen, he's in his late thirties though so I don't see him in the long term plans. If we could get a pick or decet prospect he could be gone.

We need to address our top 6, definitely, but we only have three options. Draft, UFA, and trade.

Draft will be the easiest option. Having a top 10 pick that could be top 5 will definitely help, this is a forward heavy top ten so we should get another potentially high talented forward. Getting another 1st for Legwand goes a long way too. It could help us move up, or we can stand pat and draft another forward.

On the UFA front we'll have to overpay to get what we want and I think Poile is willing to do that, the question is does a Vanek or even a Stastny want to sign with us. It's sure help, and I'd love for it to happen, but it's not something we can depend on happening.

Trade. We could probably get a top 6 talent by trading out 1st+ a good prospect/decent assets like Wilson or Ellis. Of course Weber would get the biggest haul, but he's our cornerstone locked up. He's an easy answer for fixing our crappy offense, but obviously he's our face and a top 3 player at his position. He's still young enough for us to take our time and build through the draft. The only question is if he wants to wait another year + while we get him help up front?

That line-up I posted above won't likely be the final solution to our scoring needs, but we've got fisher for another year and I think slotting Wilson at center behind him whilst looking for an upgrade for Fisher seems like a realistic move going forward. I'm not saying it's ideal or it's the best center depth we've ever had, but I just think that's what is likely to happen. It seems very Poile like.
If we Trade Weber it will hurt. If we build from the draft it will hurt. Will Weber want to stay here through the time it will take us to get the pieces we need? Who knows.

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02-26-2014, 08:33 AM
  #261
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per mynhltraderumors.com

Jim Matheson of the Edmonton Journal: Matheson thinks the Oilers need to make a big play for top defenseman, and he thinks Shea Weber should be that target. The Predators have no top-six forwards. The Oilers and Flyers have the best young forwards to offer up to the Predators. The Predators would likely ask for Ryan Nugent-Hopkins or Taylor Hall. Matheson thinks RNH and Hall may be untouchable for the Oilers, but maybe they listen for a Weber deal. The Oilers first round pick is in play if they can’t get Aaron Ekblad. They could send any defenseman other than Justin Schultz. The Flyers had been willing to give up four first round picks for Weber when they signed him to an offer sheet. After this season, Weber will have 12 years left at $82 million. He carries a $7.857 million salary cap hit. He’s due $14 million in each of the next two seasons. Matheson thinks the Flyers would give up Brayden Schenn, Jake Voracek, and a defenseman or first round pick for Weber.
If the Oilers trade Ales Hemsky, they’ll be looking for a good prospect and not a draft pick. They need players who can play soon and not in three years. The Red Wings and Penguins seem like likely destinations.

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02-26-2014, 08:39 AM
  #262
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Meh...just speculation. Weber isn't getting traded. I always love when certain players are untouchable in these talks too. "Sure...we want your superstar, but our best players are unavailable".

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02-26-2014, 08:42 AM
  #263
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What are people's thoughts on Wilson?

Are they open to him being moved or is he a pretty big part of the core moving forward?

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02-26-2014, 08:48 AM
  #264
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What are people's thoughts on Wilson?

Are they open to him being moved or is he a pretty big part of the core moving forward?
IMO, Wilson certainly hasn't panned out as the offensive star I still think he could be, but I really hope we hold onto him. The Preds would be selling low and many here, including me, would love to see if he can stay at center. Especially if Legwand is moved.

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02-26-2014, 08:50 AM
  #265
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IMO, Wilson certainly hasn't panned out as the offensive star I still think he could be, but I really hope we hold onto him. The Preds would be selling low and many here, including me, would love to see if he can stay at center. Especially if Legwand is moved.
No doubt he can play center, he is a great 2nd line C for us in the future. However he needs the players on his wing to be more skilled. I think it starts with Craig on his right, but I feel like this has never been tried because of Trotz's defensive mind

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02-26-2014, 08:58 AM
  #266
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No doubt he can play center, he is a great 2nd line C for us in the future. However he needs the players on his wing to be more skilled. I think it starts with Craig on his right, but I feel like this has never been tried because of Trotz's defensive mind
Agreed.

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02-26-2014, 10:14 AM
  #267
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No doubt he can play center, he is a great 2nd line C for us in the future. However he needs the players on his wing to be more skilled. I think it starts with Craig on his right, but I feel like this has never been tried because of Trotz's defensive mind
I too hope we keep Wilson and I too hope they get him in a position that he will have skilled players around him. Maybe Moser-Wilson-Smith. If Predators are truly going after Gagner, we would have Fisher-Gagner-Wilson-Gaustad for next year.

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02-26-2014, 10:16 AM
  #268
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No doubt he can play center, he is a great 2nd line C for us in the future. However he needs the players on his wing to be more skilled. I think it starts with Craig on his right, but I feel like this has never been tried because of Trotz's defensive mind
Probably because, until this year, you could bloody-well guarantee those 2 on the same line would directly give up a goal-a-game; it's not Trotz's mindset, it's that those guys were awful.

Remember, Trotz rolled a line of Sullivan/Arnott/Dumont - at best Sullivan hustled, Dumont was hockey-smart, and Arnott put his big-body in the right place - but they didn't play a whole lotta' D. He lived with cherry-picking Paul on the other line opposite those guys, and his supposedly defensive first C scored something like 27 goals.

It's about actual TALENT, not potential. This is why none of the trade Weber stuff makes any sense until you start talking stud top-3.

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02-26-2014, 11:17 AM
  #269
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Probably because, until this year, you could bloody-well guarantee those 2 on the same line would directly give up a goal-a-game; it's not Trotz's mindset, it's that those guys were awful.

Remember, Trotz rolled a line of Sullivan/Arnott/Dumont - at best Sullivan hustled, Dumont was hockey-smart, and Arnott put his big-body in the right place - but they didn't play a whole lotta' D. He lived with cherry-picking Paul on the other line opposite those guys, and his supposedly defensive first C scored something like 27 goals.

It's about actual TALENT, not potential. This is why none of the trade Weber stuff makes any sense until you start talking stud top-3.
For saying what I was going to say (with the same examples, even!) before I could, you get a cookie.


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02-26-2014, 11:34 AM
  #270
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For saying what I was going to say (with the same examples, even!) before I could, you get a cookie.

Why don't i get a cookie?

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02-26-2014, 11:51 AM
  #271
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Why don't i get a cookie?
Cookies are earned. Get earnin'.

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02-26-2014, 12:16 PM
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02-26-2014, 04:11 PM
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Ultimately that's why I think Weber doesn't get traded because no one is going to be willing to fork over what they need to to get him. Every team wants Weber for their scraps and being Poile is probably perfectly happy riding Weber out til he retires they aren't going to get him without putting up the big guns.

Personally if Edmonton called up about Weber, the asking price is definitely firm and its gonna be crazy. If a team like Edmonton calls and RNH, etc aren't on the table I tell them not to call back til they are.

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02-26-2014, 07:52 PM
  #274
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Wilson trending into Legwand territory.

-He'd produce more if he played with more talented players <check>
-He's being held back by having to play too defensively <check>

Are there any questions about Wilson's personal behaviors that may be in doubt? Could have the trifecta.

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02-26-2014, 08:05 PM
  #275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Duke View Post
Wilson trending into Legwand territory.

-He'd produce more if he played with more talented players <check>
-He's being held back by having to play too defensively <check>

Are there any questions about Wilson's personal behaviors that may be in doubt? Could have the trifecta.
He is also coming off both shoulders being operated on and the team acquiring 3 new forwards in the offseason with him playing multiple positions. This year was always going to be a down year for Wilson. To expect him to come into the season with a limited training camp, rehabbing offseason, with new parts/pieces, on a team with pathetic goaltending, and Barry Trotz the headcoach, is too much to ask IMO. We saw Wilson hit a groove last year. He has shown the offensive ability this year. I still maintain that he will be a productive forward. The key is finding a linemate with some offensive ability that Trotz is willing to let play with Wilson, oh ... and powerplay time would help.

And by the goaltending/Trotz comments I am insinuating that the poor goaltending caused Trotz to shore up the defensive game even more then he has in the past.

Just my 2 cents.

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