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Proposal Thread: Trying It Again

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Old
02-28-2014, 11:23 AM
  #951
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Originally Posted by Moose Coleman View Post
If he's playing well under Nolan, why would Buffalo trade him? And how would we know he'd maintain that level of play here in a tougher conference with a different coach?

Let's not forget he's looked good before (which is how he ended up with such a ridiculous deal in the first place) and then fallen off a cliff.



This team has plenty of bad hockey players, they don't need more.

If we were talking about guys with size and some snarl who can play a competent two way game, that's a different story. Replacing top sixers with third and fourth liners doesn't end well (or do you not remember JFJ on the first line?)
I'd be willing to take that chance, I think a deal like Petry+2014 1st-Lander or a lower level prospect for Myers-Grigorenko-NYI 1st would work well for both teams.

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02-28-2014, 11:24 AM
  #952
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Originally Posted by CupofOil View Post
It's a risk for sure, but the Oilers are going to need to take risks at some point to further the process. I really like what i've seen of Myers this season and think that he's on the cusp of getting back to his form of several seasons ago. Those who think otherwise, haven't seen much of him this season or just make a judgment based on +/-.

I'd rather package Gagner in a deal for Myers than for Clifford and Petry being a #1D here means very little. I'm not a fan at all of the player that Petry has turned into and i came into this season thinking that he was a bit underrated but not anymore.
You are right about taking risks but that is not where the risk is going to come from. The risk will be is Myers the right player and right piece to the puzzle to move an Eberle or Yakupov or our 1st rounder for. What is your take on that?

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02-28-2014, 11:26 AM
  #953
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Originally Posted by CupofOil View Post
It's a risk for sure, but the Oilers are going to need to take risks at some point to further the process. I really like what i've seen of Myers this season and think that he's on the cusp of getting back to his form of several seasons ago. Those who think otherwise, haven't seen much of him this season or just make a judgment based on +/-.
Whereas you're making a judgement based on a three month sample size.

Fact is, if Meyers is turning the corner in Buffalo, they won't trade him for our throwaways.

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02-28-2014, 11:28 AM
  #954
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You are right about taking risks but that is not where the risk is going to come from. The risk will be is Myers the right player and right piece to the puzzle to move an Eberle or Yakupov or our 1st rounder for. What is your take on that?
This is all originating from a Gagner+Petry package which is much different than parting with a core player/top 3 pick.
I would only move Eberle, Yak or the pick for a more proven top pairing Dman.
I just feel the potential reward with Myers outweighs the risk of taking on his contract and giving up Gagner+Petry. Buffalo wouldn't make that deal anyway so all this is moot.

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02-28-2014, 11:28 AM
  #955
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Originally Posted by Moose Coleman View Post
If he's playing well under Nolan, why would Buffalo trade him? And how would we know he'd maintain that level of play here in a tougher conference with a different coach?

Let's not forget he's looked good before (which is how he ended up with such a ridiculous deal in the first place) and then fallen off a cliff.



This team has plenty of bad hockey players, they don't need more.

If we were talking about guys with size and some snarl who can play a competent two way game, that's a different story. Replacing top sixers with third and fourth liners doesn't end well (or do you not remember JFJ on the first line?)
Current top 6ers: Hall, RNH, Yakupov, Eberle, Hemsky, Gagner, Perron and maybe Arcobello.

That's 7 guys that have spent much of their careers in the top 6 and a possible gap filler in Arco until something better comes along. We need more bottom 6 grit and top 6 grit but since we won't get top 6 grit for the likes of Gagner and Hemsky you take what you can get and work towards getting that type of a player.

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02-28-2014, 11:34 AM
  #956
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Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
Current top 6ers: Hall, RNH, Yakupov, Eberle, Hemsky, Gagner, Perron and maybe Arcobello.

That's 7 guys that have spent much of their careers in the top 6 and a possible gap filler in Arco until something better comes along. We need more bottom 6 grit and top 6 grit but since we won't get top 6 grit for the likes of Gagner and Hemsky you take what you can get and work towards getting that type of a player.
Not if "taking what you can get" means downgrading significantly in areas that actually matter. Take a guy that's bad defensively and puts up points and replace him with a players who is bad defensively and doesn't put up points, that's a step backwards by any measure.

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02-28-2014, 11:41 AM
  #957
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Originally Posted by Moose Coleman View Post
Not if "taking what you can get" means downgrading significantly in areas that actually matter. Take a guy that's bad defensively and puts up points and replace him with a players who is bad defensively and doesn't put up points, that's a step backwards by any measure.
Yeah because we don't need physical players we just need to add guys like Wellwood, Robert Nilsson, Omark, Schremp, O'Sullivan, Zherdev, Filatov, MAB, Tom Poti, Tom Gilbert, etc. to make this a Cup contender. NEWSFLASH this team IS GOING BACKWARDS WITH GAGNER AND HEMSKY PLAYING KEY ROLES ON IT. Seriously it's obvious that we can't get anything higher end that we really need by trading these guys and we suck with them here and have for many years so what is your plan? Don't shore up the bottom 6 and hope and pray that size in the top 6 falls in our lap? How in the hell does anyone expect change with the same easy to play against bums playing significant roles? It's ****ing mind boggling TBH.

Also how many more games do we lose next season of Mark Arcobello is our 2C than Sam Gagner? Those 6 less points in 7 less games is just going to sink our ship isn't it? Especially since you know Arcobello is +14 better than Sam the Sham.

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02-28-2014, 11:49 AM
  #958
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Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
Yeah because we don't need physical players we just need to add guys like Wellwood, Robert Nilsson, Omark, Schremp, O'Sullivan, Zherdev, Filatov, MAB, Tom Poti, Tom Gilbert, etc. to make this a Cup contender
Why don't you deal with the discussion at hand instead of inventing straw men?

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NEWSFLASH this team IS GOING BACKWARDS WITH GAGNER AND HEMSKY PLAYING KEY ROLES ON IT. Seriously it's obvious that we can't get anything higher end that we really need by trading these guys and we suck with them here and have for many years so what is your plan? Don't shore up the bottom 6 and hope and pray that size in the top 6 falls in our lap? How in the hell does anyone expect change with the same easy to play against bums playing significant roles? It's ****ing mind boggling TBH.
So you've traded a couple of top sixers to "shore up" the bottom six. Now you have a couple extra holes in the top six. And you still lack the "top six players with size" that you believe necessary to be a contender. So what's your plan to get those pieces? Play Gazdic/Clifford/Hendricks types in the JFJ role until something better falls into your lap?

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02-28-2014, 11:49 AM
  #959
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I would certainly be willing to add to Gagner for Myers. But why would we trade eberle, yaks, or our top 3 pick this year for a guy who has struggled for years?

That said, now that I've said it, watch me clean the egg off my face when Myers goes Subban on the league next year. haha

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02-28-2014, 11:51 AM
  #960
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Originally Posted by CupofOil View Post
This is all originating from a Gagner+Petry package which is much different than parting with a core player/top 3 pick.
I would only move Eberle, Yak or the pick for a more proven top pairing Dman.
I just feel the potential reward with Myers outweighs the risk of taking on his contract and giving up Gagner+Petry. Buffalo wouldn't make that deal anyway so all this is moot.
That's the truth. But dmen with his tool box and the top pairing potential he has don't get made available often. He's still very young for a dman and has proven he can eat minutes during his time in Buffalo. If you truly believe by watching him that he will round out his game in the defensive zone to compliment his offensive game then that's the type of deal the Oilers got to look at. If he gets back on track then he will no longer be available, even for the Eberles and Yakupovs. That is where the risk lies if you want to get him right now.

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02-28-2014, 11:55 AM
  #961
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moose Coleman View Post
Why don't you deal with the discussion at hand instead of inventing straw men?



So you've traded a couple of top sixers to "shore up" the bottom six. Now you have a couple extra holes in the top six. And you still lack the "top six players with size" that you believe necessary to be a contender. So what's your plan to get those pieces? Play Gazdic/Clifford/Hendricks types in the JFJ role until something better comes along?
To be fair, I like Clifford and Hendricks a lot more than JFJ. But I'm in the minority that thinks this team is actually better served with guys like that playing higher, than having Gags and Hemsky out there.

Say we end up with Reinhart at the draft. I think there will be many options to fill those two empty spots with. Rolling the top 3 lines often, you can switch Perron and Clifford, or Gordon and Reinhart for different dynamics.

Hall RNH Eberle
Perron Gordon Yakupov
Clifford Reinhart XXX
Gadzik XXX Hendricks

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02-28-2014, 12:04 PM
  #962
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Originally Posted by notloilersfan View Post
To be fair, I like Clifford and Hendricks a lot more than JFJ. But I'm in the minority that thinks this team is actually better served with guys like that playing higher, than having Gags and Hemsky out there.

Say we end up with Reinhart at the draft. I think there will be many options to fill those two empty spots with. Rolling the top 3 lines often, you can switch Perron and Clifford, or Gordon and Reinhart for different dynamics.

Hall RNH Eberle
Perron Gordon Yakupov
Clifford Reinhart XXX
Gadzik XXX Hendricks
Depth means having guys playing lower than their abilities, not over their heads.

That lineup to me looks like shuffling deck chairs. Still too small soft upfront, plus you have Gordon playing in a spot he has no business being in with the alternative being another teenager. I don't see any way that team isn't as bad or worse than what we have now. Ghastly stuff.

But seeing as how Hemsky's good as gone and Gagner looks like he's on the way out soon, I guess we'll find out (welcome Connor!)

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Old
02-28-2014, 12:22 PM
  #963
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Originally Posted by Moose Coleman View Post
Depth means having guys playing lower than their abilities, not over their heads.

That lineup to me looks like shuffling deck chairs. Still too small soft upfront, plus you have Gordon playing in a spot he has no business being in with the alternative being another teenager. I don't see any way that team isn't as bad or worse than what we have now. Ghastly stuff.

But seeing as how Hemsky's good as gone and Gagner looks like he's on the way out soon, I guess we'll find out (welcome Connor!)
I don't think its a winning combination but its better than what we have. Gordon doesn't belong at 2C, but I'd rather him there for now, than Gagner or the teen

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02-28-2014, 12:35 PM
  #964
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Originally Posted by notloilersfan View Post
I would certainly be willing to add to Gagner for Myers. But why would we trade eberle, yaks, or our top 3 pick this year for a guy who has struggled for years?

That said, now that I've said it, watch me clean the egg off my face when Myers goes Subban on the league next year. haha
Thing is, any deal with Gagner as a considerable piece for Myers will be a non-starter. If you want him, its going to one of those three pieces to entice Buffalo to move him here. Those are the three pieces that hold any significant value that should be available for the right price to improve this team.

It's up to the guys who get paid to be pro scouts for this team to identify if Myers has the skill and will to get back on track and become a true top pairing dman as he keeps maturing. Which doesn't bode well knowing the Oilers brass and track record.


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Old
02-28-2014, 12:44 PM
  #965
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Myers and Petry are essentially the same player right now minus Myers' Horcoff-sized contract.

There's a lot of people falling in love with the idea of Myers and not the actual Myers.
Is that really a bad thing?

The guy is at the very least a top-4 D-man (which I view Petry as). He's shown in his earlier seasons he can play at a top-pairing role and chip in offensively.

Yeah his contract is heavy, but with us possibly shedding the Gagner contract, and also not retaining some other players (Hemsky, Smyth, Schultz etc.), would us taking on a risk like Myers be the worst thing?

The good news is we currently don't have a real albatross type contract. Not that we should, but taking a risk on a young D-man who has shown immense talent in the past doesn't seem like the worst idea in the world to me.

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02-28-2014, 12:50 PM
  #966
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If Myers is truly available... he won't come cheap. Much more than Gagner+ BUT I'd definitely be on board with taking a shot at Myers. I think he's a solid dman and adding him to Marincin/Klefbom/Nurse (and maybe Ekblad)... that's a group that at least theoretically should have a good chance of being a decent defensive group.

What would Myers cost though... that's the big question. Probably one of the top assets.... I assume Eberle/RNH/Hall are off the table and Gagner/Hemsky don't have the value to make the deal doable and Yak has low value (and I really don't want to part with a guy that young with that much untapped potential anyway... although Eakins/MacT may feel differently).

That leaves Perron...

I like Perron quite a lot but I don't think the Oilers have much attachment to him... so I could see him being peddled. Perron would be leading the Sabres in goal scoring by a mile this season and you'd basically be selling Perron high at this point... one of the few Oilers that would be at near peak value.

Something around Perron+ for Myers might get it done. Would I do it? Probably. Would the Sabres? Depends on the plus of course but if Myers is actually on the market they may think they have enough defensive depth in the pipeline to part with him and they obviously need offensive help so there may well be a deal there in some form.

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02-28-2014, 12:51 PM
  #967
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There are some nice non-rentals out there like Edler, Ward, Myers, Erhoff. Definitely a chance for MacT to make a move of he wants. Hopefully he can pull something off.

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02-28-2014, 12:53 PM
  #968
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Myers doesnt move like he used too and hes not as physical as he once was. He is way overpaid and Buf isnt just going to dump him for nothing. No way I trade Ebs Yak or our 1st this year in a package and they wouldnt have any interest in gags.

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02-28-2014, 01:05 PM
  #969
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Is that really a bad thing?

The guy is at the very least a top-4 D-man (which I view Petry as). He's shown in his earlier seasons he can play at a top-pairing role and chip in offensively.

Yeah his contract is heavy, but with us possibly shedding the Gagner contract, and also not retaining some other players (Hemsky, Smyth, Schultz etc.), would us taking on a risk like Myers be the worst thing?
Biggest red flag for me is that he plays in the soft conference and has been wildly inconsistent in every facet of his game. Will he improve? Well, he's the same age as Sam Gagner so keep that in mind when you make your prognostications. I don't believe the maxim that defencemen develop slower than forwards applies to real elite guys.

Quote:
The good news is we currently don't have a real albatross type contract. Not that we should, but taking a risk on a young D-man who has shown immense talent in the past doesn't seem like the worst idea in the world to me.
There's a not insignificant chance Meyers' deal would fit the bill in short order. If it took a package of Gagner/pick/prospect to get him, it might be worth the risk. Anything more is probably pushing it.

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02-28-2014, 01:18 PM
  #970
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It seems like the following dmen are available Edler, Myers, Ehroff for sure and not sure who else is available out there. Edler and Ehroff are both left shooting and Myers is right shooting. Do you go after two of those dmen or just one of them. Which dman do you go after and what would the cost be.

Would getting Edler and Myers and have them as our top pairing really improve this team a lot?

What would the cost be though?

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02-28-2014, 01:21 PM
  #971
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Myers is overrated. The most I would be willing to give up for him is Gagner and a B-level prospect

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02-28-2014, 01:23 PM
  #972
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There are some nice non-rentals out there like Edler, Ward, Myers, Erhoff. Definitely a chance for MacT to make a move of he wants. Hopefully he can pull something off.
Those are all nice...except Ward. He's not going to help us at all.

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02-28-2014, 01:26 PM
  #973
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It seems like the following dmen are available Edler, Myers, Ehroff for sure and not sure who else is available out there. Edler and Ehroff are both left shooting and Myers is right shooting. Do you go after two of those dmen or just one of them. Which dman do you go after and what would the cost be.

Would getting Edler and Myers and have them as our top pairing really improve this team a lot?

What would the cost be though?
Yes Edler and Myers would drastically improve our team. As for the cost, I don't think we can afford them both without creating holes in our top 6 forwards

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02-28-2014, 01:33 PM
  #974
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The thing is Myers is a RHS when we already have Petry-J.Schultz. I'd be fine with J.Schultz on the third pairing but management clearly thinks highly of him and I honestly don't know if the difference between Petry and Myers is that much of a difference.


The left-side is horrible though, Ference has been awful and should be relegated to the bottom pairing asap. Marincin has been fantastic but it's also way too risky to count on him for next year for the top 2 left-handed spots. Then N.Schultz/Belov/etc are all awful.

Plus, has Myers really regained form enough to warrant an Eberle or something? I'm not sure he has.

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02-28-2014, 01:35 PM
  #975
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Originally Posted by Moose Coleman View Post
Biggest red flag for me is that he plays in the soft conference and has been wildly inconsistent in every facet of his game. Will he improve? Well, he's the same age as Sam Gagner so keep that in mind when you make your prognostications. I don't believe the maxim that defencemen develop slower than forwards applies to real elite guys.
His inconsistency is worrying, don't get me wrong, but I do believe young D-man take more time to mature than forwards. I do think a change of scenery will do him good. Fixing consistency to me is something much more plausible than developing multiple tools.

In a way I see this as being a reverse Dion. Phanuef flashed some talent early on for Calgary, his development somewhat plateaued, traded to Toronto and he's developed into a pretty good D-man. I think Myers can do that, except coming to the west from the east.

Quote:
There's a not insignificant chance Meyers' deal would fit the bill in short order. If it took a package of Gagner/pick/prospect to get him, it might be worth the risk. Anything more is probably pushing it.
Cost is key here. Guys like Eberle, Yak, 2014 1st etc etc., should be so far off the table, they shouldn't be considered.

If we're taking on a reclamation project, we should be paying reclamation prices.

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