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"Habs are actively looking to change the core of their team"

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Old
02-16-2007, 11:08 AM
  #26
Hotstreak
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I can believe Gainey's looking to do this, and It's at the point where I think it might be a good long-term solution, but if its done, Koivu WON'T be involved, even if he's not exactly the most liked hab on this board right now.

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02-16-2007, 11:08 AM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
You guys are kidding yourselves if you honestly think that a bad month and a half will suddenly make Gainey want to move Koivu. He is not the problem. Koivu will play out his contract here in Montreal and probably retire.
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Originally Posted by Hotstreak View Post
I can believe Gainey's looking to do this, and It's at the point where I think it might be a good long-term solution, but if its done, Koivu WON'T be involved, even if he's not exactly the most liked hab on this board right now.
I agree 100%.

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Old
02-16-2007, 11:09 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
If Gainey can bring in a star centre to play on the 1st line, I could see Koivu enjoying great success on the 2nd line playing against 2nd-tier forwards. Less pressure on Saku = much more prodcution and less injuries for him. He won't slump as much either.
Agreed. The problem with that Koivu makes almost 5mil/yr...that's 1st line center money, how can you bring in a star who makes less than Koivu?

The Habs don't have the cap flexibility to acquire a star center unless they move Koivu the other way or in a another deal.

The Habs won't see a legitimate PPG star unless they trade at least one of Koivu or Kovalev.

Or else you're pay structure is all out of whack (like it is now really)

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02-16-2007, 11:12 AM
  #29
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Guys, if we don't move Koivu off this team, we won't fix anything. He didn't do anything to save the three last coaches, which are now winning regularly with their respective teams. We always say our team lacks discipline, but what about the one who's supposed to show the example ? Koivu always lacked discipline, always took stupid and dump penalties at key times. He didn't started to do so this season. Where is the captain right now ? Where is the captain when we need him the most ? Did he say anything ? Did he do something on the ice ? We always blame Kovalev ( as matter of fact, he deserves it), but what about Koivu ? He's like theodore two years ago, he's a taboo. No journalists, no experts, no one is blaming him, which is sad because he's one of the reasons why the habs are always in that position if not the biggest reason. I am not saying that Koivu is a bad player, he's fast, has some skills, but he ain't suited for Captaincy. That is a fact, and the ones who aren't capable of admitting it are blinds... or maybe they don't want to touch the CH's taboo.

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02-16-2007, 11:13 AM
  #30
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keep koivu for the second line and higgins should also be playing on the 2nd or 3rd line to continue his development

ryder, kovalev souray should all go imo, and could fetch decent returns

i just wish they could pick up someone like jokinen

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Old
02-16-2007, 11:13 AM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Agreed. The problem with that Koivu makes almost 5mil/yr...that's 1st line center money, how can you bring in a star who makes less than Koivu?

The Habs don't have the cap flexibility to acquire a star center unless they move Koivu the other way or in a another deal.

The Habs won't see a legitimate PPG star unless they trade at least one of Koivu or Kovalev.

Or else you're pay structure is all out of whack (like it is now really)
You move Kovalev and Rivet...there's your cap space.

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Old
02-16-2007, 11:15 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuggy View Post
You move Kovalev and Rivet...there's your cap space.
dont forget to dump niinnima

he is a 2.5 million dollar suit model who warms the bench

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02-16-2007, 11:15 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
You guys are kidding yourselves if you honestly think that a bad month and a half will suddenly make Gainey want to move Koivu. He is not the problem. Koivu will play out his contract here in Montreal and probably retire.
And you are freaking kidding yourself if you think Koivu is still part of the solution. You just have to go in a different direction at some point. We changed GMs, coaches, starting goalies, but not the first line Center / Captain and it's still not working. The only constant has been Koivu through all of this.

They say ... never trade your best player. Not trading Koivu was fine and dandy when that was true. But it's no longer the case and it gets more and more evident from here on.

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Old
02-16-2007, 11:16 AM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuggy View Post
You move Kovalev and Rivet...there's your cap space.
What team would be willing to take tose 2 and give you your "star" player?
Let's stop kidding oursleves - a star player can not be brought through a trade; we don't have much to offer, unless you're willing to give Higgins, Price...
And we saw that UFAs are not in a hurry to sign in Montreal...

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Old
02-16-2007, 11:18 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Habitants View Post
dont forget to dump niinnima

he is a 2.5 million dollar suit model who warms the bench
Ya, I was going to say him but ya know.

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Originally Posted by Coco Fever View Post
What team would be willing to take tose 2 and give you your "star" player?
Let's stop kidding oursleves - a star player can not be brought through a trade; we don't have much to offer, unless you're willing to give Higgins, Price...
And we saw that UFAs are not in a hurry to sign in Montreal...
You don't think Rivet is attractive to teams? I also think Kovalev could be of interest to certain teams. Just like Ryder, Souray, Niniimaa and Samsonov. Obviously the return for most of them won't be great but you clear the space then deal prospects using the extra cap space.

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02-16-2007, 11:19 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by AH View Post
And you are freaking kidding yourself if you think Koivu is still part of the solution. You just have to go in a different direction at some point. We changed GMs, coaches, starting goalies, but not the first line Center / Captain and it's still not working. The only constant has been Koivu through all of this.

They say ... never trade your best player. Not trading Koivu was fine and dandy when that was true. But it's no longer the case and it gets more and more evident from here on.
Well said. Time for a major change.

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02-16-2007, 11:21 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Tuggy View Post
You move Kovalev and Rivet...there's your cap space.
As mentioned below...easier said than done.

The Habs need to acquire a marquee player, a PPG talent who can be depended on for 82 games a season. Kovalev & Rivet won't get you that player, and even if you're just trying to move them to create cap space to land that PPG talent in free agency for example, no one is going to take Kovalev off your hands unless you take as big a problem off theirs.

As i've said before, Gainey has handcuffed himself....I'm not saying the Habs should move Koivu, not at all...however, something has to be done to bring him some help at least and that's going to be extremely difficult to do.

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Old
02-16-2007, 11:21 AM
  #38
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Kovalev three weeks 'injury' is probably something more like: 'I ask for a trade' by Alexei Kovalev.

Wise thing for everyone to not lower it's value by stating he want's to be out.

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Old
02-16-2007, 11:23 AM
  #39
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Koivu
Kovalev
Markov
Souray
Huet



That's the core of the team.



I'd like Koivu and Markov to stay...

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Old
02-16-2007, 11:24 AM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AH View Post
And you are freaking kidding yourself if you think Koivu is still part of the solution. You just have to go in a different direction at some point. We changed GMs, coaches, starting goalies, but not the first line Center / Captain and it's still not working. The only constant has been Koivu through all of this.

They say ... never trade your best player. Not trading Koivu was fine and dandy when that was true. But it's no longer the case and it gets more and more evident from here on.
Well we should of gone in that different direction last season. It's too late now and nobody would want him at his current pay rate unless we pretty much give him away. As much as the Saku lovefest gets on my nerves, I still think we would be better off to keep him on as a 2nd line center. Gainey just has to do whatever he can to land either Jokinen or Richards. There just isn't an alternative. We aren't getting anywhere without a first line pivot and Gainey must know this.

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Old
02-16-2007, 11:24 AM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
You guys are kidding yourselves if you honestly think that a bad month and a half will suddenly make Gainey want to move Koivu. He is not the problem. Koivu will play out his contract here in Montreal and probably retire.
Koivu is not part of the solution either, what does he bring to the table?

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02-16-2007, 11:25 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Tuggy View Post
Ya, I was going to say him but ya know.



You don't think Rivet is attractive to teams? I also think Kovalev could be of interest to certain teams. Just like Ryder, Souray, Niniimaa and Samsonov. Obviously the return for most of them won't be great but you clear the space then deal prospects using the extra cap space.
The biggest barganing chips Gainey has at his disposal are Souray & Ryder, at least they're the most desirable players from opposing GM's standpoint based on salary, potential impact and signability.

They can move Rivet, but there's not a huge market for a guy like him...moving Koivu and Kovalev will prove extremely difficult, Markov is part of the solution, not the problem IMO although even I his biggest fan wouldn't be against trading him should the return yield a sure bet young up and coming player to build around.

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02-16-2007, 11:26 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Habitants View Post
dont forget to dump niinnima

he is a 2.5 million dollar suit model who warms the bench
Seriously, I've been wondering for 2 months why niinimaa hasn't been sent to Hamilton... ok he's expensive, but at least clear the cap space!

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02-16-2007, 11:26 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by AH View Post
And you are freaking kidding yourself if you think Koivu is still part of the solution. You just have to go in a different direction at some point. We changed GMs, coaches, starting goalies, but not the first line Center / Captain and it's still not working. The only constant has been Koivu through all of this.

They say ... never trade your best player. Not trading Koivu was fine and dandy when that was true. But it's no longer the case and it gets more and more evident from here on.
Couldn't have said it better myself.

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Old
02-16-2007, 11:26 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Tuggy View Post
I see Koivu's name brought up a lot but I don't see him being traded. I still think he can be an effective player but just not carry the load offensively.
I don't see him being traded, nor Do I want him to be traded, I just want to see him 2nd line centre.

1. ?
2. koivu
3. plekanec
4. bonk

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Old
02-16-2007, 11:28 AM
  #46
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Koivu is not part of the solution either, what does he bring to the table?
Koivu CAN be part of the solution if better surrounded, the problem is that Koivu's own contract inhibits any help Gainey can get him, add to that Kovalev albatross of a contract and Gainey is stuck.

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02-16-2007, 11:29 AM
  #47
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
The biggest barganing chips Gainey has at his disposal are Souray & Ryder, at least they're the most desirable players from opposing GM's standpoint based on salary, potential impact and signability.

They can move Rivet, but there's not a huge market for a guy like him...moving Koivu and Kovalev will prove extremely difficult, Markov is part of the solution, not the problem IMO although even I his biggest fan wouldn't be against trading him should the return yield a sure bet young up and coming player to build around.
Dumping Rivet would be along the "change culture / leadership " lines. He is worth a 2nd rounder, but more importantly his cap hit can better utilized with someone else on the roster.

Neither Markov nor Souray will get you the marquee player with their current contract situations, but they will land you a package similar to Forsberg's. You can then parlay those additional assets into a marquee player that will be around for 3 to 4 more years (like Jokinen).

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Old
02-16-2007, 11:30 AM
  #48
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If trading of core players means vets it is going to be UFA's, maybe a Ryder....but don't kid yourself that Koivu and Kovalev are going anywhere unless Gainey is willing to take on the same salary or more from another team (plus NTC have to be waived).

Koivu and Kovalev are core players, but their play and contracts almost make them impossible to move.

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Old
02-16-2007, 11:30 AM
  #49
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Like I said some days ago...

Glad to see I'm not the only one thinking about that, there has to be something done, we dropped from 4th to 10th place in a few weeks, and I don't see this slump ending soon...

Everything was working right in the first half of the season, but then some players stopped working hard... and now, MOST of the team don't work at all.

Cohesion is severly lacking in the team play, leadership on ice too, and chaos and confusion seems to wreak havoc on the team chemistry.

A true leader would do something... a true leader could not tolerate these child bickerings. I think that Souray should be the captain because right now he seems to be the only one willing to kick bad workers ass.

Anyway, the core is severly damaged because of this slump, and in fact, if you look in the last years, the same patterns always seem to appear at the same time, i.e. they start the season in fire, they have a mid season slump that last until march, and then they begin to work to try to repair damaged pots...

I'm tired of this... we can't build around this core. We have to change it... and Koivu is the first that needs to leave, I like him as a person because he's involved in the community. But as a player, I think his time has come to an end...

I don't need to speak about Kovalev, Rivet, Ryder, Bouillon... etc.

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02-16-2007, 11:31 AM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Agreed. The problem with that Koivu makes almost 5mil/yr...that's 1st line center money, how can you bring in a star who makes less than Koivu?

The Habs don't have the cap flexibility to acquire a star center unless they move Koivu the other way or in a another deal.

The Habs won't see a legitimate PPG star unless they trade at least one of Koivu or Kovalev.

Or else you're pay structure is all out of whack (like it is now really)
There is no player in the league that is going to expect more money than Koivu just because "he's a bigger star." Koivu is one of the most respected players in the league.

There is alot of dead weight on this team that makes way too much money before looking at Koivu. Why the **** is Boullion still on this team making close to 2 mil? I would rather play Aebischer on defence. Boullion is ****ing terrible, causes more turnovers and 2-1 breaks than anyone I've ever seen in my life! Cote is cheaper and probably twice as effective.

And all this is before even looking at guys like Niinimaa and others who have no value at all and can easily be waived. I have no clue why they haven't brought up Cote and haven't waived Niinimaa and Boullion. Makes no sense at all.

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Originally Posted by MontrealHabs View Post
Guys, if we don't move Koivu off this team, we won't fix anything. He didn't do anything to save the three last coaches, which are now winning regularly with their respective teams. We always say our team lacks discipline, but what about the one who's supposed to show the example ? Koivu always lacked discipline, always took stupid and dump penalties at key times. He didn't started to do so this season. Where is the captain right now ? Where is the captain when we need him the most ? Did he say anything ? Did he do something on the ice ? We always blame Kovalev ( as matter of fact, he deserves it), but what about Koivu ? He's like theodore two years ago, he's a taboo. No journalists, no experts, no one is blaming him, which is sad because he's one of the reasons why the habs are always in that position if not the biggest reason. I am not saying that Koivu is a bad player, he's fast, has some skills, but he ain't suited for Captaincy. That is a fact, and the ones who aren't capable of admitting it are blinds... or maybe they don't want to touch the CH's taboo.
I really feel as if some people on this board have a distorted view of what being an NHL captain is. Having the "C" on your sweater doesn't automatically give you superpowers and responsibilities, just like NOT having a "C" on your sweater doesn't automatically take away your voice and disable any leadership qualities you may have.

If you're saying there is a leadership problem on this team, then you're saying there are no leaders at all on this team. What would the difference be if Begin was captain? Guys would try harder? Don't kid yourself. It makes no difference who has the C. They can give it to Marc Streit and it won't make a lick of difference. The players will listen to whoever they respect, not to whoever has the C on their sweater.

You think that in Dallas, now that Modano isn't captain anymore, he simply stopped talking and lets Morrow do it all? You think the players automatically stopped listening to him because he doesn't have the C? Come on, the captaincy is more for the fans than it is for the team.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AH View Post
And you are freaking kidding yourself if you think Koivu is still part of the solution. You just have to go in a different direction at some point. We changed GMs, coaches, starting goalies, but not the first line Center / Captain and it's still not working. The only constant has been Koivu through all of this.

They say ... never trade your best player. Not trading Koivu was fine and dandy when that was true. But it's no longer the case and it gets more and more evident from here on.
I didn't say he was part of the solution, I said he wasn't part of the problem. I think they need to bring in a centre to replace Koivu on the first line. Changing the captaincy? Why? That wouldn't do anything!

There has been alot more than Koivu constant in all this. How about bad drafting, bad signings, no talent brought in to supplement Koivu (honestly, who have they brought in? Enigmatic players...They have yet to bring in a single gritty forward who has consistently put up points), rookie coaches (every single time). it goes on and on.

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