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"Habs are actively looking to change the core of their team"

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Old
02-16-2007, 11:31 AM
  #51
sticknrink
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Would Montreal accept a 2nd rounder + Plante(G) or Raymond(W) for Ryder ?

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Old
02-16-2007, 11:31 AM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
If Gainey can bring in a star centre to play on the 1st line, I could see Koivu enjoying great success on the 2nd line playing against 2nd-tier forwards. Less pressure on Saku = much more prodcution and less injuries for him. He won't slump as much either.
Agree with you

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Old
02-16-2007, 11:32 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by AH View Post
I hope so Doug. But I just dont see it. I want to know what you can possibly get for Kovalev that will make the team better. Koivu has a NTC. Souray and Markov are too valuable to the team. Trading them as rentals sends the wrong message to the everyone. Rivet is worthless. Ryder is worth a nice prospect but what the hell will that do for us in terms of making the playoffs THIS year (which I believe is the goal because that's just the way the business works)?
Will the NTC be waived if it's to play with his bro????

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Old
02-16-2007, 11:33 AM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Koivu CAN be part of the solution if better surrounded, the problem is that Koivu's own contract inhibits any help Gainey can get him, add to that Kovalev albatross of a contract and Gainey is stuck.
If we get rid of Kovalev, Samsonov, Bouillon and Souray's (eventual) contract, we can work on surrounding Koivu.

Kovalev: 2nd rounder
Samsonov: a puck
Souray: Bernier? Penner?
Bouillon: 4th rounder

This kind of return won't be enough to rebuild immediately... we'll have to hope Kostytsin and Grabovski can step in immediately and that Komi / Higgins continue to progress.

+

Sign a guy like Berard to replace Souray

+

Sign a big centre or big winger to support Koivu.

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02-16-2007, 11:34 AM
  #55
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If the Habs could bring in a young 1st center, I wouldn't mind seeing Grabovski be part of the package. We have to give to get. You add Ryder and our 1st rounder and I'm pretty sure we could get something good. I don't want a guy older than 25 years old. I'm not thinking of anybody right now but I hope there's someone in the league who could be that guy.

Then Souray should be traded for a young d-man with potential who is already in the league. A guy like Braydon Coburn would be something I would be looking for. If Anaheim are interested, Bobby Ryan could be another possibility.

Rivet should be traded for a 2nd rounder.

Sergei Samsonov should be buyout during the off-season. Bouillon or Dandenault should be traded for a 2nd rounder at the draft.

Lines:

Latendresse-1st trade-Kovalev
Higgins-Koivu-Kostsitsyn
Perezhogin-Plekanec-Johnson
Bégin-Lapierre-???

Markov-Komisarek
UFA-2nd trade
Streit-Bouillon/Dandenault

Huet
Halak

I would like to get rid of Kovalev and to bring in a better UFA but I doubt that Gainey would be able to find a taker.

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Old
02-16-2007, 11:34 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
I never agreed with Koivu's contract in the first place, when it happened I said it was a mistake, an understandable one, but still a mistake. It's kind of like Toronto Maple Leafs, they have a great player in Mats Sundin who I believe is a UFA...

Most fans want to see him back there, because he's their best player and they couldn't imagine the Leafs without Sundin, but if you think about it, what have the Leafs done while Sunding has been there???

I'm of the opinion that when you've tried going in a direction for x amount of years and it hasn't worked for x amount of reason, when you have the opportunity to go in another direction, you should take it, as much as it hurts to do so...Hell, I can't imagine the Habs without #11 as the captain, but it may be time to go in another direction.

Notice, i'm not advocating trading Saku, just saying that if the opportunity presents itself and the return is advantageous, you have to pull the trigger
, one of the best replies this year . I said it before , it has been 10 years with #11, how many playoff rounds have we won . Agreed 100% like you said, we are not bashing this guy , or suggesting getting rid of win , but folks we have to move in another direction with ou core at some point - it`s a joke if we think we can win this core, and come back again next year . The opportunity wa there to say " NO " when he was due a contract . For the same money or so , we could of had Savard last year , he is an upgrade , younger ,and a better producer. Whitney was available for nothing, he is better than most of our core forwards , plus he is on the cheap . We have to see what Kosty can do , but give him a major top 6 forward job for the rest of the year , no pressure , and see what he does. Buffalo,rids themselves of Pyatt, McKee, Dumont , etc,, ahave they missed a beat ,
Atlanta loses a 90 point center have they missed a beat , sometimes we are so worried about what a vet means to the team , but you have to do what is best for the team ,and you must decide where you are in the food chain ,and act accordingly.
look what Colangelo has done for the raps in one year , Burke did it in one year in Anaheim , yes he had a decent frame work to do it , but it was the moving of Fedorov, Sykora, Ozolich, and other trash on a 12th place team , that allowed him to make a move for Pronger , and utilize his kids into core players . He used his assets to free up money and move forward the right way . HOW MANY GM`S WOULD OF DONE WHAT HE DID IN ONE YEAR ???

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Old
02-16-2007, 11:35 AM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waffledave View Post

I didn't say he was part of the solution, I said he wasn't part of the problem. I think they need to bring in a centre to replace Koivu on the first line. Changing the captaincy? Why? That wouldn't do anything!
He is not part of the solution, nor is he part of the problem. But his cap hit is almost $5 million and he is holding down the captaincy with dear life...

What is good for then?

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Old
02-16-2007, 11:36 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by perezhogin_19 View Post
If the Habs could bring in a young 1st center, I wouldn't mind seeing Grabovski be part of the package. We have to give to get. You add Ryder and our 1st rounder and I'm pretty sure we could get something good. I don't want a guy older than 25 years old. I'm not thinking of anybody right now but I hope there's someone in the league who could be that guy.

Then Souray should be traded for a young d-man with potential who is already in the league. A guy like Braydon Coburn would be something I would be looking for. If Anaheim are interested, Bobby Ryan could be another possibility.

Rivet should be traded for a 2nd rounder.

Sergei Samsonov should be buyout during the off-season. Bouillon or Dandenault should be traded for a 2nd rounder at the draft.

Lines:

Latendresse-1st trade-Kovalev
Higgins-Koivu-Kostsitsyn
Perezhogin-Plekanec-Johnson
Bégin-Lapierre-???

Markov-Komisarek
UFA-2nd trade
Streit-Bouillon/Dandenault

Huet
Halak

I would like to get rid of Kovalev and to bring in a better UFA but I doubt that Gainey would be able to find a taker.
Tuomo Ruutu...

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Old
02-16-2007, 11:38 AM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Komi#1 View Post
Tuomo Ruutu...
Great potential, but very injury prone and I still believe the Hawks would like to keep him because he is very young and if he pans out he will be a good one.

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Old
02-16-2007, 11:39 AM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AymanD View Post
Bouillon: 4th rounder
The odds are seeing Bouillon being traded less good than Koivu's ones.

Currently for next season, Gainey has these D-men under contract:

Dandenault, Bouillon, Streit.... You really think he would take the risk of having only Dandenault and Streit under contract? Have such a low amount of D-men will additionnaly inflate the UFA's contract who will join the team because they will know how bad we need them.

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Old
02-16-2007, 11:39 AM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Agreed. The problem with that Koivu makes almost 5mil/yr...that's 1st line center money, how can you bring in a star who makes less than Koivu?

The Habs don't have the cap flexibility to acquire a star center unless they move Koivu the other way or in a another deal.

The Habs won't see a legitimate PPG star unless they trade at least one of Koivu or Kovalev.

Or else you're pay structure is all out of whack (like it is now really)
In Tampa the second line center makes $7.8 million

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Old
02-16-2007, 11:39 AM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AH View Post
He is not part of the solution, nor is he part of the problem. But his cap hit is almost $5 million and he is holding down the captaincy with dear life...

What is good for then?
His cap hit is not inhibiting anything. Look around the league and many teams have a 2nd line centre making that much. How many teams have a veteren 2nd line centre who happens to also be captain making less than 5 mil?

And then again with the captaincy argument, as if there are others players just begging for him to give it up so they can FINALLY open their mouthes! If Begin has something to say but he won't say it because he isn't captain, well he's not that good of a leader after all.

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Old
02-16-2007, 11:40 AM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AymanD View Post
If we get rid of Kovalev, Samsonov, Bouillon and Souray's (eventual) contract, we can work on surrounding Koivu.

Kovalev: 2nd rounder
Samsonov: a puck
Souray: Bernier? Penner?
Bouillon: 4th rounder

This kind of return won't be enough to rebuild immediately... we'll have to hope Kostytsin and Grabovski can step in immediately and that Komi / Higgins continue to progress.

+

Sign a guy like Berard to replace Souray

+

Sign a big centre or big winger to support Koivu.
seriously guys...we change the core a couple of time around saku...when u guys gonna realize... saku is part of the problem not part of the solution..

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Old
02-16-2007, 11:40 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Tuggy View Post
I see Koivu's name brought up a lot but I don't see him being traded. I still think he can be an effective player but just not carry the load offensively.
When Gainey resigned Koivu, it was a very deliberate decision. And IMO it was a good decision. Koivu is skilled, respected, and a hard worker, a Gainey kind of guy. He's not a 100-point forward, but he has intangibles in spades and was coming off a 70-point season. What could he have gotten as a UFA? Similar, I'd wager, to what he got with Montreal.

It was impossible to foresee Justin Williams' stick, but even then, before the team's collective slump, he was scoring at a torrid pace. He looks awful now, but let's not forget what he was doing in December.

Koivu is not part of the problem. There's no leader in this world who is better than the troops he leads. That doesn't imply that it might not be good to change first line centers -- although, good luck finding a better center than Koivu that's available!

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Old
02-16-2007, 11:41 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Damn right...I said so all day yesterday on this board...

our core players were rewarded with their salaries and were given multiple chances to prove their worth and they've failed yet again...Gainey right now, isn't looking to make deals like moving prospects, he wants to change the culture of this team, he wants a new face.

I hope he succeeds, cause those contracts to namely Koivu & Kovalev are going to be hard to move.
I don't see how the core has failed. What's the core? Koivu, Markov, Kovalev? Anyone else?

Most would agree that Koivu and Markov are core-player worthy, and Kovalev a legitimately strong support-core player.

Kovalev and Koivu are each paid roughly market value. Markov's paid below market value.

So given the fact that Montreal has a small core as it is, and we could all agree that they are not spectacular relative to the other cores of the league (though still worthy of being part of the foundation of any franchise), why is it that such a small amount (roughly $10.5m) is being spent on the core?

Why is roughly $6.5m being spent on #5, #6, #8 defensemen? (Dandenault, Bouillon, Niinimaa respectively)

While we value what Johnson has provided, he's earning an awful lot for a mediocre offensive player who provides energy, but not much in the way of grit. Same goes for Bonk.

Samsonov was identified as a core player (according to his salary), but hasn't worked out for a variety of reasons, which means Montreal's added more support scoring when a core player was needed.


Look, my point is that Montreal's core is not bad, it's just small. Teams have two options:

1) Small, elite core, a la Pittsburgh, Tampa Bay, et al.;

2) Larger core, filled with depth and talents that complement eachother, a la Nashville.


I don't believe Kariya or Sullivan are much ahead of Koivu, for example. Nor do I believe Timonen is much better than Markov. The difference is primarily that Nashville has a couple of more core players which allows a player like Hartnell and Radulov to thrive in a specific depth role, whereas Montreal relies on its Hartnell/Radulov equivalents (players like Plekanec, Higgins) to provide a bulk of the offense.

A primary difference is the blueline. Nashville's got a deep, puck-moving defense. Montreal's defense is a weakness in the puck moving department.

Take the example of Detroit: Zetterberg, Datsyuk are the only forwards that have exceptional talent in some way or another. Datsyuk is not an exceptional player on the whole ... he's streaky, soft, suspect defensively and suspect when the going gets rough. Zetterberg is phenomenal, in my view, and a legitimate star. But then Detroit has the likes of Samuelsson and Cleary playing on the second line there, so we can make a claim that Montreal's talent up front is greater than Detroit's.

So why is Detroit better than Montreal?

In part due to Zetterberg, as he's really that good and helps mold their team as a whole, but largely due to the defense. Lidstrom, Kronwall, Lebda, Chelios, D.Markov, Schneider. They can all skate. They can all move the puck. They're all solid, unspectacular defensively and they're efficient.

Montreal's only efficient defenseman is Markov and at times Dandenault. Komisarek's useful, but the rest are average at best in their own zone. Rivet, as much as I like him, is not a puck mover and not a sufficient threat in transition, which makes him an average defenseman. He's worthwhile due to his character, but when there are three defensemen (Komisarek, Rivet, Souray) who are not efficient and they're all offering the same characteristics (character, grit, physical presence), then there's a problem. (And yes, I realize Souray's got a cannon of a shot).


My point is that this core has not failed. Koivu, while he's struggled horribly of late, also played well above his head earlier in the year and played like one of the better Cs in the league for a stretch. He's balancing himself out right now. Kovalev's played below par for himself this year, but we can likely all agree that he's more of a support to a core player than a core player himself, ideally.

The overpayment of depth players, the lack of an additional core forward added into the mix, and the subpar puck movement on the blueline are true causes for this team's return to mediocrity, in my view.

I can't think of another team in the league that relies on 1.5 core forwards to lead a team to the playoffs. Especially if the blueline isn't exceptional.

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Old
02-16-2007, 11:41 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Habitants View Post
dont forget to dump niinnima

he is a 2.5 million dollar suit model who warms the bench
Noo Noo and Nooo Niinnima is our long awaited 2nd line center

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Old
02-16-2007, 11:43 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Kafka View Post
The odds are seeing Bouillon being traded less good than Koivu's ones.

Currently for next season, Gainey has these D-men under contract:

Dandenault, Bouillon, Streit.... You really think he would take the risk of having only Dandenault and Streit under contract? Have such a low amount of D-men will additionnaly inflate the UFA's contract who will join the team because they will know how bad we need them.
Dandenault, Streit, Markov will re-sign here, Komisarek is RFA. Bring up Cote. That's 5 d-men, bring in a 6th d-man and pay him like a 6th d-man (ie: not Boullion money) or bring in Emelin.

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Old
02-16-2007, 11:44 AM
  #68
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he started by trading robiero, now ryder needs the boot.... but he would have to have HUGE kahonas to trade koivu, don't see it happening, nor is it going to help move the franchise forward

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02-16-2007, 11:47 AM
  #69
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The core of this team isn't going to change until the younger players grow up. Higgins, Ryder, Plekanec, Kostitsyn, Grabovsky. That's the next core of this team. We're gonna have to ride Koivu and Kovalev out for the remainder of their contracts.

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02-16-2007, 11:49 AM
  #70
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The core of this team isn't going to change until the younger players grow up. Higgins, Ryder, Plekanec, Kostitsyn, Grabovsky. That's the next core of this team. We're gonna have to ride Koivu and Kovalev out for the remainder of their contracts.
Then we need to upgrade the next core..

Because none of the "young" players you mentionned are good enough to build around, they're great to build with... but they are no foundation..

Maybe Halak or Price??

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02-16-2007, 11:50 AM
  #71
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Agreed. The problem with that Koivu makes almost 5mil/yr...that's 1st line center money, how can you bring in a star who makes less than Koivu?

The Habs don't have the cap flexibility to acquire a star center unless they move Koivu the other way or in a another deal.

The Habs won't see a legitimate PPG star unless they trade at least one of Koivu or Kovalev.

Or else you're pay structure is all out of whack (like it is now really)
Koivu's worth roughly the amount he's earning on the open market. Look, Arnott makes close to what Koivu does, and Arnott's not in Koivu's league. Satan does, too. Kovalev too.

While Koivu is expensive, he's worth that much. The open market has indicated as much. Koivu's not the problem here. The team's salary structure, as outlined by AymanD recently, is out of whack. There's no justifiable reason to be paying third-liners like Bonk and Johnson as much as they're making, nor paying depth defense (especially Niinimaa, who's acquisition and subsequently keeping him for the duration of the season was completely mind-boggling).

Cheap, cap-friendly contracts like Higgins, Komisarek, Plekanec, Perezhogin are not being put to good use. While these good players are cheap, Montreal could/should have pursued a higher-end talent to be the core, let Higgins be a support forward to Koivu + elite winger, rather than expected to be the catalyst of the line. Let Ryder work on a lower line where he can play a complementary role with his shot + a weapon on the PP, rather than being given big minutes and expected to produce as a big-time forward ... when really, he's just a guy that works hard and has a good enough shot to notch 25 goals, hopefully.

Instead the cap-friendly contracts have been used to give more money to depth players and identifying non-core players like Samsonov as being potential huge contributors. While I didn't mind the Samsonov signing, I don't understand why he was used the way he was, and I don't think it addressed Montreal's need of a core player up front. I don't think Gainey truly believed it did either, which is why it was more of a test-the-waters contract (2-year deal, salary not appropriate for a core player).

It's not the core that failed here. I like Gainey. I have a lot of respect for the man. But the core wasn't large enough to succeed, and the depth has not proven to be as good as their salaries would indicate.

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02-16-2007, 11:52 AM
  #72
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The problem is not Koivu...The problem is that Koivu shouldnt be our best player and our main leader...When your 1st center is Koivu and your best winger is Kovy, youre in trouble...I have no problem keeping one of Koivu or Kovalev but not both...Koivu would look good with a player like Heatley or Kovy would look great with a center like Marleau...The problem is we dont have a real go to guy...A real leader that can take the team on his shoulders night after night...


P.S I have no clue how to get one...

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Old
02-16-2007, 11:53 AM
  #73
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I agree that the core of this team needs a shakeup, however, i think core is being overstated here.

Staying imo will be:

Koivu
Higgins
Markov (at the deadline, summer is up to him)
Komisarek
Begin
Lapierre
Latenderesse

Everyone else is available and I imagine Gainey to be looking to deal

Sourray
Ryder
Rivet
Kovalev
Samsonov


That's my opinion but I think dealing those guys will only be beneficial both salary cap wise and for a change in the "core". A case can be made for each ones departure.

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Old
02-16-2007, 11:56 AM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoHabsGO252006 View Post
I agree that the core of this team needs a shakeup, however, i think core is being overstated here.

Staying imo will be:

Koivu
Higgins
Markov (at the deadline, summer is up to him)
Komisarek
Begin
Lapierre
Latenderesse

Everyone else is available and I imagine Gainey to be looking to deal

Sourray
Ryder
Rivet
Kovalev
Samsonov


That's my opinion but I think dealing those guys will only be beneficial both salary cap wise and for a change in the "core". A case can be made for each ones departure.
How is Lapierre staying as a sure thing?
I agree with the others but I have no idea what Bob will do with Koivu.

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Old
02-16-2007, 12:01 PM
  #75
ChuckyToGally
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sticknrink View Post
Would Montreal accept a 2nd rounder + Plante(G) or Raymond(W) for Ryder ?
What would we do with another G? I don't even know who Raymond is.

Offer your 1st rounder and we have a deal.

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