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"Habs are actively looking to change the core of their team"

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Old
02-16-2007, 06:20 PM
  #176
NORiculous
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tritone View Post
In those 20 players are the likes of Malkin and Crosby who obviously can't be paid more than Koivu....keep looking...everyone here keeps criticizing logic but for some reason nobody seems to be using any. If anyone here thinks that Crosby won't end up making more than Koivu after his next contract negotiation, what can I say?

I said Koivu is a first line centre, Points(before season is over) and Dollar figures don't tell the whole story. Koivu has finished in the top 15 centres every year he has played (looking at PPG production percentage wise)
-His salary for a UFA is quite normal compared with other players of his calibre and stats.
-His defensive awareness is better than most 1st centers imo .
-His playoff stats are right up there
-He's slumping at the moment...just in case anyone failed to notice this, EVERYONE on the team is slumping! Does that automatically make him unworthy of 1st line centre status??? IMO ...No
-Have a look at Koivu's ice-time compared to other 1st line centers ahead of him in points right now.
-Have a look at how many 1st line centres are also playing 4-8 minutes PER GAME OF PK
I am not debating any of this, just the logic quoted in my previous post. The bold part is exaclty what I was saying, but it was used in the quoted message to prove something; hence the head hurting.

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Old
02-16-2007, 06:21 PM
  #177
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I'm in favour of this. It's obvious that this team doesn't have the heart and soul that it takes. Skill isn't everything.

Don't move Koivu, though. He's the kind of player we need more of.

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Old
02-16-2007, 06:24 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by BaseballCoach View Post
The exercise is to rebuild a core. Many have suggested that we can "change the core" and get better. I want to test that hypothesis. So we start by removing the present core, which is Koivu, Kovalev, Rivet and Souray, as well as ALL UFAs.

Assume that we have five spots to fill, which is Centres 1 and 2, Defencemen 1 and 2, and a top scoring winger. You have $25 Million to do it with.

You can add UFAs (estimate amount you will expect to pay), whether currently with the team or playing elsewhere in 06-07. You can also choose to add back Koivu (4.8M) or Kovalev (4.5M) at their contracted salaries if you wish one of them to be part of the new core.
Gainey can't just drop Koivu and Kovalev, they both have NTCs. So I'd keep those two and sign Markov (he's valuable no matter what the team's "core" is). Sounds like he wants $5 million so that would leave about $10 million with a defenseman and a center to sign right? I'd sign Berard and I'd want a big first/second line center so I'd look into Lindros, Tkachuk, Drury and Forsberg.

I really doubt it'll play out the way you're describing it though.

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02-16-2007, 06:34 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by HexCopterKey View Post
Gainey can't just drop Koivu and Kovalev, they both have NTCs. So I'd keep those two and sign Markov (he's valuable no matter what the team's "core" is). Sounds like he wants $5 million so that would leave about $10 million with a defenseman and a center to sign right? I'd sign Berard and I'd want a big first/second line center so I'd look into Lindros, Tkachuk, Drury and Forsberg.

I really doubt it'll play out the way you're describing it though.
Sounds like you are actually fairly happy with the present core.

I'm still waiting for someone who is NOT happy to show us how a new configuration can improve things.

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Old
02-16-2007, 06:35 PM
  #180
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Originally Posted by AH View Post
I hope so Doug. But I just dont see it. I want to know what you can possibly get for Kovalev that will make the team better. Koivu has a NTC. Souray and Markov are too valuable to the team. Trading them as rentals sends the wrong message to the everyone. Rivet is worthless. Ryder is worth a nice prospect but what the hell will that do for us in terms of making the playoffs THIS year (which I believe is the goal because that's just the way the business works)?

The only way to change the culture of the team is to trade prospects. And I dont see that happening either. You dont change the culture of the team at the deadline. You dont add leadership at the deadline. It's all supposed to be done in the summer.

Koivu had to go LAST year. That would have been the single biggest culture buster. Bob failed and I can't forget that. I can forgive the Kovalev contract but not the Koivu one.
I think Saku was signed too fast for too much. I mentioned they should have waited in the summer to sign him, even let his agent go around the league to see if he would have been offered. The fact is, he wouldn't have been offered what they gave him but no GM in the league. There was absolutly no worries to rush in signing him. I like Saku, he's done a lot of us but he has been on a scary decline for the last 3 years.

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Old
02-16-2007, 07:00 PM
  #181
Kirk Muller
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I don't think the core necessarily needs to be torn down, however i think the core needs to be redefined. The core as it stands needs to be Koivu, Higgins, Komisarek, Latendresse, Huet and hopefully guys like Souray and Markov.

The biggest change imo needs to be on the backend. For how many years has this average crew been kept together. Guys like Rivet and Bouillon have had their run in Montreal in my opinion. Streit is a good utility man but not an every day player in my opinion. Dandenault skates well but thats it.

And a some point Montreal needs to get a real star player. Not Kovalev who has "star" skills which are on display once in a while.

Lastly i want a change in attitude and style. A more agressive approach. Stop with trying to make a small skilled team with decent speed a defensive minded, trap trap, team who can't even forecheck, combined with a defense whose taught simply to bank the puck out. This is why the habs suck 5 on 5.

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02-16-2007, 07:13 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by BigTimer View Post
Oh gee, you're a brilliant one. Your formula should be faxed to GM's around the league. Let's disregard the actual performances.
I worded it wrong, you're right, but you know exactly where I was going, so no need for insults...

Since we were discussing his contract vs his production, I was going for a production/salary comparison and I'm SURE you know it.

And for whichever stats you may bring, there are counter arguments... Koivu doesnt play 25min/game, and in his roughly 16-18 min/game there is PK time... He also plays with lower scoring wingers, the 2nd line C wasn't anything to talk about until recently, etc etc so Koivu is checked up more easily than say Lecavalier who plays with St.Louis and Prospal and Richards on the PP, so has that much more room on the ice.

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Old
02-16-2007, 07:16 PM
  #183
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Berard ??

Hopefully we never sink low enough to consider picking him up to play defense

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Old
02-16-2007, 07:34 PM
  #184
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I have a hypothetical question not related to this topic at all.

If montreal had drafted Jordan Staal in last years draft would he be playing in Montreal? or would we have sent him back to juniors?

I'm going to have to say back in juniors

Kostityn 22 has had a look but not a real look, Don Lever says he's NHL ready

Latendresse 19 Sent back to juniors last year after great camp.

Carey Price 19 we'll see with him. I suspect he ends up in hamilton next year.

Just curious to see what u guys think.

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Old
02-16-2007, 08:08 PM
  #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HexCopterKey View Post
Gainey can't just drop Koivu and Kovalev, they both have NTCs. So I'd keep those two and sign Markov (he's valuable no matter what the team's "core" is). Sounds like he wants $5 million so that would leave about $10 million with a defenseman and a center to sign right? I'd sign Berard and I'd want a big first/second line center so I'd look into Lindros, Tkachuk, Drury and Forsberg.

I really doubt it'll play out the way you're describing it though.
No NTC for Kovalev.

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Old
02-16-2007, 08:10 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by BaseballCoach View Post
Sounds like you are actually fairly happy with the present core.

I'm still waiting for someone who is NOT happy to show us how a new configuration can improve things.
lol didn't I say the roster's biggest problem for the last decade has been size up front? Gainey doesn't need to ditch everyone in order to change things, he just needs to replace guys like Ryder and Samsonov with big players. I'm not saying I want Kovalev on the team either, I want to set him on fire everytime I see him with the puck but we're stuck with him until his contract is up, same with Koivu like it or not. If Gainey really wants to change things in the summer, expect him to shop Ryder around and maybe buy out Samsonov's contract so he can sign/trade for big top line players. That's about all he can and needs to do.

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Old
02-16-2007, 08:12 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by AH View Post
No NTC for Kovalev.
Really? I thought he had one. Oh well, I still don't see many teams being interested which means we're still stuck with him until his contract is up.

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Old
02-16-2007, 08:13 PM
  #188
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Originally Posted by HexCopterKey View Post
Really? I thought he had one. Oh well, I still don't see many teams being interested which means we're still stuck with him until his contract is up.
The Rangers are in a playoff hunt, perhaps they'll try him for a third time. We could ask for Josef Balej.

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Old
02-16-2007, 08:26 PM
  #189
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They couldn't afford him.

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Old
02-16-2007, 09:11 PM
  #190
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Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
Guys I see staying:

Koivu
Higgins
Markov
Komisarek
Begin
Lapierre
Latendresse
Plekanec
Streit
Souray
Huet

That's it. The rest is on the block, as far as I'm concerned.
I would not count Souray part of that list. Our d core Rivet/Souray are too slow and we would benefit an upgrade in speed. Both Rivet and Souray have not adapted well and struggle to make a nice outlet pass to come out of there zone. I would trade Souray prior to the deadline perhaps to a team like San Jose or Vancouver. If we could get a pick and a young promissing Dmen we would be in business. Perhaps Souray for Vlacic or Bourdon. With Then if they could convince Emelin to come over we would have quite a refreshing D-squad.. which is what we need IMO.

In front we desparatly need a fourth line, Lapierre is a good start, Begin belongs there and I think a guy like Laperiere could complete that squad quite well next year.

We certainly need more sole in this team...

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Old
02-16-2007, 09:28 PM
  #191
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I just hope to hell they bring Emelin over. Him and Komisarek on our blueline.. and then Valentenko in the future.. People will hate to play against us.. Emelin and Valentenko have heavy shots, are dirty and physical.. Komisarek is huge and physical.. We'll make teams pay the price.

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Old
02-16-2007, 09:34 PM
  #192
Watsatheo
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Unless we get something damn good, there is no way I would be happy if Koivu is traded.

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Old
02-16-2007, 09:49 PM
  #193
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Originally Posted by Watzatheo View Post
Unless we get something damn good, there is no way I would be happy if Koivu is traded.
Koivu isn't going anywhere but nor should he be counted on to carry this team. He has conditioning issues and doesn't match up favorably with other first line centers. I'm happy hes improved his faceoff ability but that would only be a bonus if we could score some first line support. Bob might trade the farm.

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02-16-2007, 09:57 PM
  #194
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I don't think we have many movable assets right now. Markov, Koivu, Souray, and perhaps Rivet are the only veteran assets we have right now. Youth should not be moved.

Rivet, wouldn't land us much imo. Markov, in my books, and im sure in the Habs organization, is untouchable, especially with our current core of D. Koivu, while very much movable, i don't think would fetch much. He would probably be better kept then moved. I really feel he has more value to the Canadiens than any other team. Infact of the movable assets so far, non of them are playing better than Souray. He leads the team in goals, points, and is exactly what a lot of teams are currently lacking. A big strong scoring D. I wonder if the habs fall out of the race they could convince souray to be traded to get return, and then re-sign him in the summer.

It would be a win-win situation for both sides, assuming we can give souray what he wants.

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02-16-2007, 10:09 PM
  #195
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Originally Posted by Mooch View Post
I don't think we have many movable assets right now. Markov, Koivu, Souray, and perhaps Rivet are the only veteran assets we have right now. Youth should not be moved.

Rivet, wouldn't land us much imo. Markov, in my books, and im sure in the Habs organization, is untouchable, especially with our current core of D. Koivu, while very much movable, i don't think would fetch much. He would probably be better kept then moved. I really feel he has more value to the Canadiens than any other team. Infact of the movable assets so far, non of them are playing better than Souray. He leads the team in goals, points, and is exactly what a lot of teams are currently lacking. A big strong scoring D. I wonder if the habs fall out of the race they could convince souray to be traded to get return, and then re-sign him in the summer.It would be a win-win situation for both sides, assuming we can give souray what he wants.

I cant believe that slipped through the CBA

Its so silly to be able to move someone at the deadline and be able to pick him up again a couple months later

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02-16-2007, 10:18 PM
  #196
Mooch
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hackett View Post
I cant believe that slipped through the CBA

Its so silly to be able to move someone at the deadline and be able to pick him up again a couple months later
I suppose it is, but then again the teams trading for that asset probably know about that specific player being traded for and their situation.

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Old
02-16-2007, 10:39 PM
  #197
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This is the time of year where good deals come along to make your team better in the long run.

I'm going to be sick if I have to watch the Habs do this again next year. I'm fed up with "good start, Holidays and the downward spiral".

We won't make the playoffs with this team the way it's going anyways, so why have to suffer through this every year.

I sure hope we find a way to get a Jagr, Sakic, or Iginla like player on this team once and for all. I like Saku. But he just can't carry a team like some other stars do.

Bob, if you can get a top guy who can get 90pts and carry a team, I don't care if it will take 2-3 years to get him to do that. Just to it all ready!

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Old
02-16-2007, 10:43 PM
  #198
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Originally Posted by Hackett View Post
I cant believe that slipped through the CBA

Its so silly to be able to move someone at the deadline and be able to pick him up again a couple months later
It's also silly to be able to trade Stuart, Sturm and Primeau for Joe Thornton but it happens. I don't have a problem with rentals being re-signed by their former teams.

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02-16-2007, 11:03 PM
  #199
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Originally Posted by HexCopterKey View Post
It's also silly to be able to trade Stuart, Sturm and Primeau for Joe Thornton but it happens. I don't have a problem with rentals being re-signed by their former teams.

I'm not saying that the rental player should never be able to sign back with his former team... but I do think there should be like a 2 year mandatory wait period.

I think this current method ruins the integrity of the trading process.

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Old
02-16-2007, 11:13 PM
  #200
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Don't move Koivu, though. He's the kind of player we need more of.
Look, I like Saku and think he is a good hockey player, not a great hockey player. He has fought hard off the ice for his life and through injury, I respect that and I am very compasionate to one's personal life and well being. But, life and hockey are two seperate things. Saku is a great ambassador for his fight against cancer and his survival, but I don't think we should have to keep a player that has never realized his potential or played a full season because of his couragous battle off the ice.

He is a good 2nd liner, a 1st liner he is not.

Untouchable to me he is not. We have shown so much loyalty to this player as a fan base and organization that it is incrediable. I think if Gainey went to him and said "Saku we have stood by you through thick and thin and we respect and value everything you have done for this organization on and off the ice"......."but, we have an offer from another team for your services". "They are a team that is a legit contender and are willing to to get you to be a part of your team, we are thinking of rebuilding and we think it is in your best interests to go to another team to be a part of a winner now, not later."

Saku should accept or waive his no trade clause, he owes it to a team that has always stood there for him....he owes it to himself to be a winner of the greatest trophy in sport.

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