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Do you trust Gainey at this point?

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Old
02-18-2007, 12:18 AM
  #76
Kimota
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
As much as I don't think he's the greatest GM on the planet, I have to agree with this. He's definately an intelligent man and everybody can see that we don't have the team to go far if we ever make it. So he's in no position to deal to get some missing pieces by trading our youth 'cause he knows we need more than that and our youth might end up being better than whoever we can get AND he can't really trade our Souray's and all for some youth 'cause it would mean for some that he's throwing the towel and lots of people here wouldn't like that. I don't agree with this last statement but that's how it is here and then people ask why can't we build something solid....Well not accepting reality may be one of the reasons why....
Dropping the towel? The towel is on the floor, already. We're finished. I actually think it would be good for the Habs if Sourey would go. A new energy. And I don't think the fans would mind that much to tell you the truth.

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Old
02-18-2007, 07:00 AM
  #77
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Yeah, there are white flags pitched all over the place.

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Old
02-18-2007, 07:59 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by davedave View Post
You're right. I apologize to plafleur10. I just get frustrated with all the negative threads saying pretty much the same thing over and over again. But plafleur10 made good points for a good discussion.
Apology accepted. I see Gainey still gathers a lot of respect, which is well deserved.But we all seem to agree the spotlight is on him and he's living his defining moments at this stage.

What he does in the next while, first in the next 10 days, then in these critical days just before and after the draft when the UFA frenzy starts will not only define his tenure as Habs GM but the Habs' future for the next 5 years.

We all also seem to agree that it would be, at this point, unacceptable and a grave mistake to lose the Sourays and Markovs of this world for nothing, so if Bob does not want to trade them, he better sign them in ahurry, 'cause if he plays this game and then loses them for nothing, he would be unforgiveable!

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02-18-2007, 08:21 AM
  #79
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Oh!, and a few more words.

1) Gainey IS certainly feeling the pressure right now, his refusal to give a spontaneous interview to a reporter last week in a hotel lobby, his insistance that the reporter go through PR man Dominique Saillant and then Saillant refusing the interview by saying "Mr. Gainey will speak when he ahs somthing to announce" are all uncharactristic of Gainey and of teh good guys image Habs front office has always tried to maintain.

2) What is is vision for the team, someone tell me.

3) He has been pretty inactive the last 12 months if you ask me. He's only moves have been getting Simpson at the deadline last year, letting Bulis walk, dealing Zednick for a 3rd, getting Johnson for a 4th and the ominous signing of Samsonov. Then he traded DOWN 4-5 picks at the Draft. Period. Hardly earth shattering.

4) A good GM, in addition to showing vision, has to pull a rabbit out of his hat and hit a homerun once in a while. For example, Anaheim went out to get Niedermayer and Pronger plus drafted extremely well. SJ pulled the big one getting Joe Thornton for 3 guys the Bruins might not even have by season's end.Buffalo got Briere and Drury to lead their offense.Vancouver went after Luongo.Nashville dafted very well and made nice complementary signings and have now hit their homerun with Forsberg. Jersey keeps plucking Parises and Zajacs with late 1st round picks each year.

5) To hit a homerun, you have to be prepared to take risks, hopefully calculated risk and you need to have guts. The line between conservative and scared is a very thin one indeed.

6) All I'm saying to Mr. Gainey is show us some balls. He definitely had them on the ice, if he still has them in the front office, he hasn't shown them yet.

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02-18-2007, 08:27 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by plafleur10 View Post
5) To hit a homerun, you have to be prepared to take risks, hopefully calculated risk and you need to have guts. The line between conservative and scared is a very thin one indeed.

6) All I'm saying to Mr. Gainey is show us some balls. He definitely had them on the ice, if he still has them in the front office, he hasn't shown them yet.
I think it sums up everything. I don't think Gainey is a bad GM, but maybe he wasn't the right guy for the situation we were in. We needed someone with guts to acquire a star player and change the status quo we've been in for the past 12 years. Maybe Gainey is too conservative for that. Also, he spent way too much money and he can't do anything now...

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Old
02-18-2007, 09:58 AM
  #81
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* Disclaimer: I'm a big Andre Savard fan, and I give him most of the credit for taking us from a team with very little depth to a team with a plethora of depth coming down the pipeline.

Do I trust Gainey? I'm not sure how to answer this question.

In terms of leadership, no question that I trust BG. When Gainey took over as coach last season, he showed me that he might be better suited as a coach than a GM. He did a great job getting the players to refocus after our terrible slide that season. Easily his greatest asset.

Talent evaluation? I think Savard's better, but Gainey did make some smart moves. Trading for Bonk and Johnson...those were very good moves. Getting Begin was another great move. Trading for Huet, I'd say Gainey was more lucky than he was savvy. Signing Samsonov, not so great...he really should have saved his money and given Kostitsyn that spot. It was a mistake, seems like he overpaid for a UFA just for the sake of bringing in a brand name. Samsonov hasn't really impressed anyone for the past 2-3 seasons.

In terms of contract negotation, the general consensus is that he's significantly better than Savard. Not sure if I agree with that. In Dallas, he signed Audette to a ridiculous contract...same with Turgeon. In Montreal, he signed Theodore to a ridiculous contract...giving a 4 year contract to Kovalev was questionable. I was never fond of Theodore, and while some people praise Gainey for having traded Theodore last season, I criticize Gainey for having waited that long, or for having signed him for that matter. I was clamoring for us to trade Theodore since 2002-2003, so Savard is just as guilty as Gainey in my book (however, Savard was willing to trade Theodore according to some rumors). You have to trade your overrated assets as soon as you discover they're overrated, i.e. while their market value is greater than their actual value. By the same token, a guy like Ryder is someone we should have traded a while ago; I get the feeling his market value has already caught up to his actual value, unfortunately.

Gainey might be willing to take more risks than Savard though. Trading Balej for Kovalev comes to mind...I'm not sure Savard would have had the balls to make that move. And to Gainey's credit, he hasn't given away any of the very solid prospects that Savard has brought to the organization (yet).

Firing Claude Julien to bring in a guy like Carbonneau...well, I was not a fan of that from the get-go. He fired Claude Julien because of their slide last season. But when CJ replaced Theo by Huet, the tide was seemingly turning. After CJ was fired, Gainey put Theo back in, only to eventually come to the same solution CJ had come to: put Huet in. Moreover, Gainey decides to replace a smart coach like CJ by Guy Carbonneau. Loved Guy as a player, but as a coach, he's a rookie. A rookie who's made many mistakes. CJ was fired for much less, so I'm happy to see him having success in NJ. I would add replacing CJ by Carbo to the list of mistakes Gainey has made.

Do I trust Gainey? I trust him to be a very average GM. I expected the team to be more successful by now, given the many prospects we have coming down the pipeline (mostly Savard picks). The team hasn't made any significant inroads since his arrival. Would things be different if Savard was still the GM? Honestly, probably not. We'd be a team within the 6-10 range in the conference, just like we currently are. So, to conclude, Gainey isn't horrible...he just isn't great either.

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Old
02-18-2007, 10:06 AM
  #82
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I think everyone here would agree he's a better coach than GM. I'd love for him to take over both positions until we could find a good replacement as a GM. However, I do trust Gainey as a GM, because I know he won't throw away guys like Higgins or Komisarek or Plekanec. Which is just plain smart.

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Old
02-18-2007, 10:22 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
I think everyone here would agree he's a better coach than GM. I'd love for him to take over both positions until we could find a good replacement as a GM. However, I do trust Gainey as a GM, because I know he won't throw away guys like Higgins or Komisarek or Plekanec. Which is just plain smart.
I agree with you on at least taht front that he will not be crazy enough to mortgage the future to give a useless temporary boost to this year,s failing team.

He is however the guy that dealt away then "prospect" Jarome Iginla for Joe Nieuwendyk, a borderline OK move if you have a real shot at the Cup, which he did then, an idiotic move otherwise.

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02-18-2007, 10:37 AM
  #84
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I think Gainey is doing the smart thing...He'll wait till the Trade deadline, and if we're not in playoff contention (if the team is still slumping) he'll make us sellers. A few of our players can garnish very valuable assets (namely Souray).

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02-18-2007, 10:57 AM
  #85
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You have to judge a GM in three ways when it comes to judging his abilities....a) Losing guys who go on to greatness elsewhere, and b) you acquire greatness and they transform your team, and c) letting players go when you know it's time to because there needs to be a change or because they are not worth the money they are asking, i.e. making tough decisions.

The a) has been successful (Beauchemin doesn't count because that was b/c of the Neidermayer effect). The players who have left (Garon, Theodore, Balej, Bulis, Zednik) have continued to be average.

The b) has been unsuccessful with the Kovalev and Samsonov signings but it's not the end of the world. There is still time to make up for it.

The c) has been mixed b/c he did not trade Theodore before his suckiness (but who could blame him for holding onto an all-star and former MVP who was 28 years old). The retention of Koivu was ill-advised although he can still make up for it by trading him in the next week. The Souray and Rivet departures in the next 10 days will make c) a relative success.

So really, b) needs to be addressed. If c) is properly conducted in the next 10 days, we wil have enough assets and cap $$$ to make b) happen.

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02-18-2007, 01:58 PM
  #86
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I still trust him, but not completely after this past week.

I have to commend him for standing pat and allowing the team to resolve their issues, but Bob's trade deadline was 3-4 games ago. That's when everyone in Habtown but Gainey saw the solution to this serious problem with the team was that it needed a quick shakeup. Having not brought in a different top forward our hopes now lay on a wing and a prayer.

But hey, who's to say he didn't try. Maybe 2 years down the road he can say "x team specifically asked for Grabovski, and now he's one of the best young players in the league. Guess who knows his **** now? Me, baby. ME."

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Old
02-18-2007, 02:01 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by plafleur10 View Post
I agree with you on at least taht front that he will not be crazy enough to mortgage the future to give a useless temporary boost to this year,s failing team.

He is however the guy that dealt away then "prospect" Jarome Iginla for Joe Nieuwendyk, a borderline OK move if you have a real shot at the Cup, which he did then, an idiotic move otherwise.
the Iginla move was fine in my books they did end up winning the cup with Niewendyk being a major contributor.

The funny thing about the Iginla trade is supposedly the flames really wanted Todd Harvey instead ,but Gainey did'nt want to give him up.. So Iginla was in the trade instead. Harvey was rated a higher prospect at the time.

I don't have a problem with the Iginla trade, Both teams benefitted from it. The Cup ends up in Texas and the Flames got a marquee player as it turns out. Dallas at the time of the trade was a legit contender, and had to go through either colorado or detroit. I wonder if he would still do the trade knowing how iginla turned out and assuming that Dallas would have never won the cup that year.

It's clear Gainey will do something by the deadline I think. But please no more rapidly aging vets. If we had a legit shot at the cup by all means go for it. Clearly we don't have the depth to go far in the playoffs, you can pretty much expect several injuries when you have to play every other day for 2 months.

So take any 1 or 2 of our key players out of our lineup. Look at the roster and tell me we can still compete with some of the powehouse teams.

Claude Julien was fired because he wasn't gainey's guy, and then the extended slump made it an easy decision for Bob.
If I took over as GM i would want to hand pick my coach also.

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Old
02-18-2007, 02:04 PM
  #88
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Gainey has failed big time this year. Hell, our best forward has 16 freaking goals. You can't win with a pathetich offence like this.

To be honest, I think Andre Savard is a way better GM than Gainey.

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02-18-2007, 02:06 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by AH View Post
You have to judge a GM in three ways when it comes to judging his abilities....a) Losing guys who go on to greatness elsewhere, and b) you acquire greatness and they transform your team, and c) letting players go when you know it's time to because there needs to be a change or because they are not worth the money they are asking, i.e. making tough decisions.

The a) has been successful (Beauchemin doesn't count because that was b/c of the Neidermayer effect). The players who have left (Garon, Theodore, Balej, Bulis, Zednik) have continued to be average.

The b) has been unsuccessful with the Kovalev and Samsonov signings but it's not the end of the world. There is still time to make up for it.

The c) has been mixed b/c he did not trade Theodore before his suckiness (but who could blame him for holding onto an all-star and former MVP who was 28 years old). The retention of Koivu was ill-advised although he can still make up for it by trading him in the next week. The Souray and Rivet departures in the next 10 days will make c) a relative success.

So really, b) needs to be addressed. If c) is properly conducted in the next 10 days, we wil have enough assets and cap $$$ to make b) happen.
a) Losing Beauchemin counts in my book, what is the "Niedermeyer effect"? Plus in order to really test the (a), a GM has to make a gutsy move once in a while which he ahs not done.

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02-18-2007, 02:18 PM
  #90
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Souray

On another site, someone quotes Souray as saying this morning on RDS that he has not yet been approached by Gainey for a new contract. If so, this is inconceavable and irresponsible in my view.

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02-18-2007, 02:19 PM
  #91
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Yes!

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02-18-2007, 02:22 PM
  #92
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* Disclaimer: I'm a big Andre Savard fan, and I give him most of the credit for taking us from a team with very little depth to a team with a plethora of depth coming down the pipeline.

Do I trust Gainey? I'm not sure how to answer this question.

In terms of leadership, no question that I trust BG. When Gainey took over as coach last season, he showed me that he might be better suited as a coach than a GM. He did a great job getting the players to refocus after our terrible slide that season. Easily his greatest asset.

Talent evaluation? I think Savard's better, but Gainey did make some smart moves. Trading for Bonk and Johnson...those were very good moves. Getting Begin was another great move. Trading for Huet, I'd say Gainey was more lucky than he was savvy. Signing Samsonov, not so great...he really should have saved his money and given Kostitsyn that spot. It was a mistake, seems like he overpaid for a UFA just for the sake of bringing in a brand name. Samsonov hasn't really impressed anyone for the past 2-3 seasons.

In terms of contract negotation, the general consensus is that he's significantly better than Savard. Not sure if I agree with that. In Dallas, he signed Audette to a ridiculous contract...same with Turgeon. In Montreal, he signed Theodore to a ridiculous contract...giving a 4 year contract to Kovalev was questionable. I was never fond of Theodore, and while some people praise Gainey for having traded Theodore last season, I criticize Gainey for having waited that long, or for having signed him for that matter. I was clamoring for us to trade Theodore since 2002-2003, so Savard is just as guilty as Gainey in my book (however, Savard was willing to trade Theodore according to some rumors). You have to trade your overrated assets as soon as you discover they're overrated, i.e. while their market value is greater than their actual value. By the same token, a guy like Ryder is someone we should have traded a while ago; I get the feeling his market value has already caught up to his actual value, unfortunately.

Gainey might be willing to take more risks than Savard though. Trading Balej for Kovalev comes to mind...I'm not sure Savard would have had the balls to make that move. And to Gainey's credit, he hasn't given away any of the very solid prospects that Savard has brought to the organization (yet).

Firing Claude Julien to bring in a guy like Carbonneau...well, I was not a fan of that from the get-go. He fired Claude Julien because of their slide last season. But when CJ replaced Theo by Huet, the tide was seemingly turning. After CJ was fired, Gainey put Theo back in, only to eventually come to the same solution CJ had come to: put Huet in. Moreover, Gainey decides to replace a smart coach like CJ by Guy Carbonneau. Loved Guy as a player, but as a coach, he's a rookie. A rookie who's made many mistakes. CJ was fired for much less, so I'm happy to see him having success in NJ. I would add replacing CJ by Carbo to the list of mistakes Gainey has made.

Do I trust Gainey? I trust him to be a very average GM. I expected the team to be more successful by now, given the many prospects we have coming down the pipeline (mostly Savard picks). The team hasn't made any significant inroads since his arrival. Would things be different if Savard was still the GM? Honestly, probably not. We'd be a team within the 6-10 range in the conference, just like we currently are. So, to conclude, Gainey isn't horrible...he just isn't great either.
Very nice assessment. I too am a big Andre Savard fan and think he was treated really unfairly by Boivin.

I am too still really unsure about Gainey, people say he built a winner in Dallas but he had Moadno and Hatcher to build around, an owner with really deep pockets and no salary cap do deal with.

We'll see in the next days how he reacts. He sure a hell won't make a panic move but the things I fear the most are a bad trade or another bad signing this summer. I'm still unsure about his capacity to evaluate talent.

But in all of this, I hope Boivin's choices get questionned more in the next weeks and during the summer. The guy was brought in to orchestrate the sale of the team, and he hasn't shown any good hockey based decision this far, filling everyone up with how amazing fans we are and how a great tradition the habs, etc.

If Carbo, Gainey and the players have to deliver, so does the president of the team...

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Old
02-18-2007, 02:29 PM
  #93
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Very nice assessment. I too am a big Andre Savard fan and think he was treated really unfairly by Boivin.

I am too still really unsure about Gainey, people say he built a winner in Dallas but he had Moadno and Hatcher to build around, an owner with really deep pockets and no salary cap do deal with.

We'll see in the next days how he reacts. He sure a hell won't make a panic move but the things I fear the most are a bad trade or another bad signing this summer. I'm still unsure about his capacity to evaluate talent.

But in all of this, I hope Boivin's choices get questionned more in the next weeks and during the summer. The guy was brought in to orchestrate the sale of the team, and he hasn't shown any good hockey based decision this far, filling everyone up with how amazing fans we are and how a great tradition the habs, etc.

If Carbo, Gainey and the players have to deliver, so does the president of the team...
Gainey was with the Minesota North stars when they were moved to Dallas. i don't recall what his role was with the North Stars, I know he coached them for a while, but i don't recall if he was GM as well.

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02-18-2007, 02:42 PM
  #94
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a) Losing Beauchemin counts in my book, what is the "Niedermeyer effect"? Plus in order to really test the (a), a GM has to make a gutsy move once in a while which he ahs not done.
The Neidermayer effect is that I would look great playing with Neidermayer. I dont think Beauchemin is anything special. He got hot last season down the stretch and everyone noticed. He hasn't done anything special since. Mind you he has been hurt, but I dont see him duplicating that effort.

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