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Old
03-07-2014, 12:21 AM
  #101
dulzhok
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Originally Posted by jwhouk View Post
With that little statement as Leggy left, I'm starting to wonder if the pendulum is swinging against Trotz.
Still would like a real link to the statement. Other than a twitter hash take on some dude's account. Watched all of the Poile's Legwand videos and nothing.

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03-07-2014, 12:27 AM
  #102
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Enough already. After 15 years, it is time for a change. Poile has never won a Cup much less been to a conference final. Trotz is a mediocre coach who should have been fired after we lost to Phoenix. I am tired of the excuses the "explanations" of how Trotz doesn't kill offensive talent. The bottom line is results and we have none. .
So if we have no offensive talent, what is there to kill exactly?

There are no excuses as to Trotz and talent-- just stats. From Sullivan, Kariya, Arnott, Radulov, Erat, Hornqvist, etc, etc. The best excuse that he does kill talent are two wannabe scoring line players in Peverley and Santerelli. Peverely scoring over 15 goals once. Santerelli over 10 goals once. Yeah, those guys would help a lot and are the epitome of how Trotz' kills talent

Poile is the worst GM in the league at acquiring offense talent, bar none.

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03-07-2014, 07:56 PM
  #103
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What are the Trotz defenders so afraid of? I mean how much worse can it get? Have you considered that it might get better with a different voice/philosophy behind the bench. Seems to have worked really well for Colorado. At the very least maybe we would be more entertaining to watch. Trotz and Poile need to move on. And I'm not the only STH who thinks this.

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03-07-2014, 08:35 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by hockey diva View Post
What are the Trotz defenders so afraid of? I mean how much worse can it get? Have you considered that it might get better with a different voice/philosophy behind the bench. Seems to have worked really well for Colorado. At the very least maybe we would be more entertaining to watch. Trotz and Poile need to move on. And I'm not the only STH who thinks this.
You act as though the ONLY thing that changed in Colorado over the past five years is Roy behind the bench. Missed four of the past five post seasons, selected in the top three overall three times in the past five years .... but it's all the coaching change and not years of rebuild and change.

As for how much worse it can get ... look at the past 20 years of the Oilers and Islanders. The 1966-1986 Red Wings.

But yeah ... two rough seasons is the pit of hell.

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03-07-2014, 08:37 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by hockey diva View Post
What are the Trotz defenders so afraid of? I mean how much worse can it get? Have you considered that it might get better with a different voice/philosophy behind the bench. Seems to have worked really well for Colorado. At the very least maybe we would be more entertaining to watch. Trotz and Poile need to move on. And I'm not the only STH who thinks this.
did you really ask that question after being in a division with Columbus for 12 years??

change just for changes sake is stupid.

If you want a different style of play you'd better bring in a whole new roster. This team, for good or ill, is built to play Trotz style hockey. It would take years to build a team designed to play an up-tempo high octane style

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03-07-2014, 09:07 PM
  #106
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So we just put up with the same Predators Hockey that has gotten us nothing? No banners and two playoff series wins out of 7? Why should we be content with mediocrity? Other markets aren't.

The team has been doing a hard sell on tickets, discounting them heavily. Do you think STH are happy about people getting seats for 10 bucks a pop? And the team is crappy and completely frustrating to watch. Not a very enjoyable experience.

We'll see if the ownership wakes up when the season ticket renewals drop.

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03-07-2014, 09:07 PM
  #107
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Columbus argument is ridiculous. Get some perspective for God's sake.

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03-07-2014, 09:24 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by hockey diva View Post
So we just put up with the same Predators Hockey that has gotten us nothing? No banners and two playoff series wins out of 7? Why should we be content with mediocrity? Other markets aren't.

The team has been doing a hard sell on tickets, discounting them heavily. Do you think STH are happy about people getting seats for 10 bucks a pop? And the team is crappy and completely frustrating to watch. Not a very enjoyable experience.

We'll see if the ownership wakes up when the season ticket renewals drop.
Nobody is happy with mediocrity. The sniveling about no banners in 14 completed seasons shows a complete lack of perspective. Teams had longer droughts in a six team league than the Preds have in a 30 team league ... again ... perspective.


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Columbus argument is ridiculous. Get some perspective for God's sake.
How is it out of perspective when answering the question of how much worse can it get?

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03-07-2014, 09:29 PM
  #109
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How is the audio in your echo chamber 101?

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03-07-2014, 09:57 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by hockey diva View Post
So we just put up with the same Predators Hockey that has gotten us nothing? No banners and two playoff series wins out of 7? Why should we be content with mediocrity? Other markets aren't.

The team has been doing a hard sell on tickets, discounting them heavily. Do you think STH are happy about people getting seats for 10 bucks a pop? And the team is crappy and completely frustrating to watch. Not a very enjoyable experience.

We'll see if the ownership wakes up when the season ticket renewals drop.
hey, you gotta do what you gotta do… Im just saying that how good do you think season ticket sales will be if we suffer through two or three Edmonton like seasons while whoever the new GM and coach are rebuild a team designed to play a style that suits you. You have never been a fan with season tickets for a team that truly sucks. If you think STHs are unhappy now, imagine how they will feel being out of the playoffs by December and losing games 6-2 instead of 2-1.

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Columbus argument is ridiculous. Get some perspective for God's sake.
um, that WAS perspective… and a vey legit answer to the question that was posed

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03-07-2014, 10:01 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Preds Partisan View Post
How is the audio in your echo chamber 101?
Again, how is his mention of Columbus out of perspective when answering diva's question of "how much worse can it get?" Calling one person's answer ridiculous and then personally attacking me is not participating in adult discourse ... but so far it is all you've offered. Feel free to participate in the discussion but that requires more than you've contributed over the last hour or so.

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03-07-2014, 10:58 PM
  #112
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Fair enough. But why discount the possibility that getting a new coach and GM might be good for the franchise? All I "hear" everything is fine, we should be grateful for what we do have, etc. I don't see any consideration for the opposing view that everything is not fine and just making the playoffs is not good enough any more. And obviously we aren't even doing that right now.

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03-07-2014, 11:35 PM
  #113
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hey, you gotta do what you gotta do… Im just saying that how good do you think season ticket sales will be if we suffer through two or three Edmonton like seasons while whoever the new GM and coach are rebuild a team designed to play a style that suits you. You have never been a fan with season tickets for a team that truly sucks. If you think STHs are unhappy now, imagine how they will feel being out of the playoffs by December and losing games 6-2 instead of 2-1
I believe the problem is that change is something people believe will give us some hope. Right now what do you have to hope for another defenseman falling in Poiles' lap in the draft? Some Predators fans are tired of this. We have tried it for 15ish years and what has it got us, where has it got us? I think it is time we admit this team is going through a rebuild cycle, hopefully it will not take too long. So why not make a change at the top since change is coming so we can see if a new system works better here. I for one would like to see some excitement back in the Arena. I remember watching the playoff pushes and being at the 2ot loss. I want that feeling again but I think it may be time for a change or two at the top.

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03-08-2014, 03:06 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by hockey diva View Post
Fair enough. But why discount the possibility that getting a new coach and GM might be good for the franchise? All I "hear" everything is fine, we should be grateful for what we do have, etc.
I rarely hear that at all, even from the most ardent of pro-Poile/Trotz supporters. I don't think anyone around here is satisfied with the performance of this team at this moment. How to improve that, however, is something that sees a very large variety of perspectives around here. I also think many of the pro-Poile/Trotz crowd will absolutely acknowledge the possibility that things could get better with new leadership, while also recognizing, and erring on the side of, the possible consequences.

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I don't see any consideration for the opposing view that everything is not fine and just making the playoffs is not good enough any more. And obviously we aren't even doing that right now.
Sorry hd, but I think it's a bit disingenuous to contend that those viewpoints are not being considered around here. The "Change Now" faction is more than sufficiently represented and heard in practically every thread on the board, if not necessarily agreed with by all.


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03-08-2014, 06:49 AM
  #115
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Originally Posted by hockey diva View Post
Fair enough. But why discount the possibility that getting a new coach and GM might be good for the franchise? All I "hear" everything is fine, we should be grateful for what we do have, etc. I don't see any consideration for the opposing view that everything is not fine and just making the playoffs is not good enough any more. And obviously we aren't even doing that right now.
no, what you hear (at least from me) is that this team isn't nearly as bad as you detractors make it out to be… we are a .500 hockey team and thats with missing our all world goalie for 51 games.

If you want to see what a really bad hockey team looks like, just look at Edmonton… all of those #1 picks and they still are completely hapless… and they play that "style" that you seem to want that you claim would "at least make us fun to watch"… yeah right, Im sure the Edmonton fans are all just happy as clams that their team is "fun to watch"


My point is this team, with this coach and GM, are a lot closer to being good again than you seem to think. If you disagree, fine, don't renew you tickets… but don't be surprised in a year or two when we are back in the playoffs if your seat has been taken…

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I believe the problem is that change is something people believe will give us some hope. Right now what do you have to hope for another defenseman falling in Poiles' lap in the draft? Some Predators fans are tired of this. We have tried it for 15ish years and what has it got us, where has it got us? I think it is time we admit this team is going through a rebuild cycle, hopefully it will not take too long. So why not make a change at the top since change is coming so we can see if a new system works better here. I for one would like to see some excitement back in the Arena. I remember watching the playoff pushes and being at the 2ot loss. I want that feeling again but I think it may be time for a change or two at the top.
sorry, but if you are feeling hopeless about this franchise its because you have been spoiled by success. Edmonton fans need hope. Calgary fans need hope. Blue Jackets fans and Avs fans needed (and got) hope. But we are not in any way comparable to the situations those fan bases were or are in, with multiple years of truly wretched hockey.

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03-08-2014, 08:23 AM
  #116
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Originally Posted by PredsV82 View Post
did you really ask that question after being in a division with Columbus for 12 years??

change just for changes sake is stupid.

If you want a different style of play you'd better bring in a whole new roster. This team, for good or ill, is built to play Trotz style hockey. It would take years to build a team designed to play an up-tempo high octane style
You get a cookie.


"How much worse can it get?" is why Ken Hitchcock coaches the St. Louis Blues now. Among many, many other things.

(That said, if things really are regressing - and it looks like that could be the case - I'd consider a swap needed. Reserving judgement on that, tho.)

* * *
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Originally Posted by hockey diva View Post
Fair enough. But why discount the possibility that getting a new coach and GM might be good for the franchise? All I "hear" everything is fine, we should be grateful for what we do have, etc. I don't see any consideration for the opposing view that everything is not fine and just making the playoffs is not good enough any more. And obviously we aren't even doing that right now.
It's difficult to hear folks who agree with you when you're shouting your position so frequently and so stridently that that's all anybody can really talk to you about.

Also, consideration != agreement. If you look carefully, you'll see spots where some people have acknowledged that some change might be useful. What folks frequently end up objecting to, though, is this "we HAVE to remove them RIGHT NOW because RIGHT NOW OMG NOW NOW NOW" vibe that folks keep getting.

* * *
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sorry, but if you are feeling hopeless about this franchise its because you have been spoiled by success. Edmonton fans need hope. Calgary fans need hope. Blue Jackets fans and Avs fans needed (and got) hope. But we are not in any way comparable to the situations those fan bases were or are in, with multiple years of truly wretched hockey.
I've changed my mind. You get ALL THE COOKIES.


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03-08-2014, 09:11 AM
  #117
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Points made. I just think we can do better going forward than what we have in the current staff and management.

Poile and Trotz have done great things for the franchise. I can see that. However, 15 years is enough. It's time for a change. Fresh voices and leadership. I don't have the confidence that they can take this franchise to the next level, being a true contender. Poile has never put together a Cup winner in 30 years of being a GM. He had one Cup finalist in the late 90s. We have some good young talent coming in. How about a new coach to work with them?

I have another year on my full plus half. I will be dropping my half after next season. I will keep my full because at the very least I can see other great teams. And it's a social thing for me as well. I just have heard from other long time STH that they are unhappy.

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03-08-2014, 09:23 AM
  #118
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I would have no problem with Trotz if he would be willing to adapt his strategy to his players' strengths instead of forcing them into a one size fits all approach.

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03-08-2014, 09:27 AM
  #119
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Points made. I just think we can do better going forward than what we have in the current staff and management.

Poile and Trotz have done great things for the franchise. I can see that. However, 15 years is enough. It's time for a change. Fresh voices and leadership. I don't have the confidence that they can take this franchise to the next level, being a true contender. Poile has never put together a Cup winner in 30 years of being a GM. He had one Cup finalist in the late 90s. We have some good young talent coming in. How about a new coach to work with them?

I have another year on my full plus half. I will be dropping my half after next season. I will keep my full because at the very least I can see other great teams. And it's a social thing for me as well. I just have heard from other long time STH that they are unhappy.
The only change that would possibly work quickly is if you think there is a coach out there who can get more out of our current players than Trotz. I have no way of knowing if there is one or not, but if you hire someone with a totally different style, expect this team to struggle mightily until the new GM can turn over a substantial portion of the roster.

The only way I see a change like you want is to hire a new GM who tells Trotz he's going to obtain different kinds of players, and challenge Trotz to coach differently. If Trotz succeeds, its a win-win.. if he fails, your new coach at least will have players tailored to his style.

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I've changed my mind. You get ALL THE COOKIES.


mmmmmmm… cookies

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03-08-2014, 09:32 AM
  #120
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Also, consideration != agreement. If you look carefully, you'll see spots where some people have acknowledged that some change might be useful. What folks frequently end up objecting to, though, is this "we HAVE to remove them RIGHT NOW because RIGHT NOW OMG NOW NOW NOW" vibe that folks keep getting.
Exactly. We get rants for change for the sake of change ... and it must happen now with hyperbole filled posts that act as though the Preds are the worst team in NHL history ... and have for years. Buffalo is trying the concepts that some here advocate and it isn't working as they continue to flounder (coaching changes, front office changes, pay to get a big name free agent, no rhyme or reason behind it). Edmonton has used the rapid coaching changes, bring in any scoring forward they can draft model for years while missing the playoffs for seven straight seasons, thirteen of the past twenty. Even the Colorado example is far from a direct comparison. They've gone through four coaches in seven seasons, missed the playoffs five of the past seven opportunities, and drafted in the top three overall in three of the past five drafts. It wasn't bring in Patrick Roy, everything is fixed. It was years in the making and guys like Quenneville didn't succeed there during the lean span.

Just 24 months ago, the Preds were in that mythical "window of opportunity" ... a bit contradictory when looked at logically. If Poile can't get players and Trotz can't coach, how the hell was the team allegedly on the cusp just two seasons ago?

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03-08-2014, 09:55 AM
  #121
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I am all for change. Very simple, in 15 years of having a franchise, Poile, Trotz and their respective staffs have been unable to draft and develop a top forward in this league. That is truth. Has this franchise ever had a guy that could step on the ice and take over a game or a shift by themselves the way that the truly great players do? The answer again is no. While they have done a great job overall, this one fact remains and is what separates us from taking the next step as a franchise. Even the players we've traded for or signed through free agency weren't those types of upper echelon players. Kariya's best years were behind him because of injuries and he was the closest one that could take over a game but wasn't that guy anymore once he got here. Sully had moments of greatness. Arnott had amazing skill but no heart. Dumont was a solid contributor but not the man. Forsberg's time was short and he was a shell of himself when he got here.

This regime is great at drafting and developing goalies and defensemen. No doubt about that. While that's great, a team needs balance and while I agree that defense wins championships, you can't win if you don't score either. While other teams have had great defensemen on their rosters or even multiple greats on the blue line, their forward corps had top notch players as well. Balance is key and if this franchise were a see saw, we'd be tilted towards one side for sure.

At the end of the day Poile and Trotz have done a great job. The team played hard the other night, they even finished checks and played with a physical edge which was nice to see. However, we've scored 3 goals in 3 games and that won't get it done. We have to learn to draft and develop better forwards for this team to move ahead and I think giving Poile and Trotz 15 years to give their best is more than enough time to warrant looking in to other options that might benefit the Predators. If we were able to move on from Legwand, we should be able to move on from Poile and Trotz as well.

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03-08-2014, 10:13 AM
  #122
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101, I hear your points, and I am not one for wholesale change.

Poile and staff:
- Hit very high on defensive prospects and 2/3rd line tweening forwards. They have a knack for developing goaltenders (caveat: TONS of high drafted goaltender busts - finley, pickard, lasak, jeremy smith, etc.)
- Actually a pretty mundane first round track records. Lots of busts.
- Have drafted three legitimate superstars, only one a high round pick: Suter (7th), Weber (49th), Rinne (258th). This is pretty remarkable.
- No elite forward talent.

Trotz:
- Does well typically each year.
- Rigid defensive / forechecking system.
- Gets a lot of production out of a team built of tweeners.
- Dump / chase is predominant form of transition.
- Offense is run through the defensemen, primarily, especially if the centers struggle with the transition game.
- Excellent PK.

I don't mind Poile's overall drafting. I just believe you have to be willing to supplement your shortcomings in drafting forward talent with FA and trades. Early on he was hampered in this area by a budget. The past two years he has not, and he has sucked. The acquisitions of Forsberg and Iron Hook have stood out to me, though. Excellent moves by Poile in that regard.

As for Trotz, I don't like the dump/chase mentality. I get how that might be best with our team as we lack good puck-carriers, but, so many times I see us waste offensive zone time due to another dump in. Additionally, do we have to bring all 5 guys back on the poewer play, every time? He is conservative TOO much IMO.

I would like some change. Housely has been excellent for this team, and I think the defense and powerplay has improved dramatically.

Just a few thoughts, and they are incomplete

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03-08-2014, 01:14 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
I am all for change. Very simple, in 15 years of having a franchise, Poile, Trotz and their respective staffs have been unable to draft and develop a top forward in this league. That is truth.
Under the constraints you describe, Radulov would serve as an admirable counterexample. I also think Erat's time here is criminally underrated. That said, I can understand folks wanting better w/r/t forward development in that time. I'm just not convinced it'd happen as easily as folks seem to presume.

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03-08-2014, 01:38 PM
  #124
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Glenn,
The player you describe is that about one per draft class (on average) forward. That is a major issue our fanbase has ... expectation management. We all hope for the great find in a draft or a championship, but, the reality is that those things are few and far between ... especially if you're not drafting consistently in the top three (see Pittsburgh and Chicago in the early 2000s). We haven't won a championship in fifteen whole years of existence .... the entire country of Canada hasn't won a Cup in 20 with multiple teams vying for it.

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03-08-2014, 01:58 PM
  #125
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Stupid Predators fans. You gotta lower your expectations. You have to aim for finishing second to last in our division instead of last. Anything else is setting your expectations to high.

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