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Holmgren's last trade deadline

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Old
03-07-2014, 01:24 PM
  #76
blinds
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Dmen who have been better than Gus: Streit, Timonen, Coburn.

That's less than 6; Gus has very clearly done better than Schenn, Mez, Gill, and Grossmann this year. You're right, it is Berube's job to dress the best roster every night; he has sucked at that aspect of his job because he has consistently been sitting a guy who's done nothing but play solid hockey when given a chance. This isn't exactly a new trend for the Flyers either, giving young D talent the cold shoulder in favor of veterans, even if the vets aren't that good.

It's really, really concerning since the Flyers have spent the last two drafts furiously compiling defensive talent. It's a waste of time if none of it is going to get a real shot because the org has no idea how to trust or develop young dmen, and because they have an odd enthusiasm for mediocre/bad veterans.
I agree completely. The good news is they seem to have realized that they need to develop their own defenseman, the bad news is they don't know how and it's a little too late to catch up with the forwards. This organization has to be the most unwilling to change in the league and they made that pretty clear by selecting Berube as Laviolette's replacement. I don't see Berube leading this team to a Cup or any kind of contention.

Honestly, I'm more concerned with how our core's age doesn't match up right. Ideally, you want the defense and goalie to be older than the forward group. Defensemen and goalies usually hit their stride later in their career.

As is right now, our forward core is about to hit their peak in the next couple years. Some are already in their prime. That's before our new crop of defensemen are going to be able to make an impact (or the way things are going, even make it into the NHL). We don't have the defensemen right now to contend, and by the time we do the forwards might not be contender material.

The only solution I see to this problem is a trade for either a youngish 1D or a couple stud young defensemen (like Shattenkirk level) to fit with the forward core and Mason. If we stay the course, I don't think we have the right mix of players to contend for a long time. I love our prospects but the players don't mesh well just because of their age and, like people have been saying, we need a trade to shore up the defense with a youngish defender or two to match the forwards.

Morin is 8 years younger than Giroux. By the time he's able to make an impact, Giroux will be well out of his prime. It's unfortunate because Morin looks great, but I'd be willing to use him, Laughton, the Schenns, maybe one of Simmonds/Voracek, to make a move for the defense and build a team around Giroux, Couturier and Mason. We should be looking to contend in the next 2-4 years IMO and we still need some major moves to get there.


Last edited by blinds: 03-07-2014 at 01:30 PM.
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03-07-2014, 01:39 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by blinds View Post
I agree completely. The good news is they seem to have realized that they need to develop their own defenseman, the bad news is they don't know how and it's a little too late to catch up with the forwards. This organization has to be the most unwilling to change in the league and they made that pretty clear by selecting Berube as Laviolette's replacement. I don't see Berube leading this team to a Cup or any kind of contention.

Honestly, I'm more concerned with how our core's age doesn't match up right. Ideally, you want the defense and goalie to be older than the forward group. Defensemen and goalies usually hit their stride later in their career.

As is right now, our forward core is about to hit their peak in the next couple years. Some are already in their prime. That's before our new crop of defensemen are going to be able to make an impact (or the way things are going, even make it into the NHL). We don't have the defensemen right now to contend, and by the time we do the forwards might not be contender material.

The only solution I see to this problem is a trade for either a youngish 1D or a couple stud young defensemen (like Shattenkirk level) to fit with the forward core and Mason. If we stay the course, I don't think we have the right mix of players to contend for a long time. I love our prospects but the players don't mesh well just because of their age and, like people have been saying, we need a trade to shore up the defense with a youngish defender or two to match the forwards.

Morin is 8 years younger than Giroux. By the time he's able to make an impact, Giroux will be well out of his prime. It's unfortunate because Morin looks great, but I'd be willing to use him, Laughton, the Schenns, maybe one of Simmonds/Voracek, to make a move for the defense and build a team around Giroux, Couturier and Mason. We should be looking to contend in the next 2-4 years IMO and we still need some major moves to get there.
So management has provided the coach with a poor roster and the coach is poor...

How do the Flyers have a 33-21-6 record under this poor coach with such poor players?


Not really directed at you, but it's a common theme. The Flyers are a Saturday win (and a Tampa loss) from having the 4th best record in the East. Every team has flaws and, while I don't think the Flyers have a great shot at winning a Cup this year, they're really not that far away.

Sure the team's missing a true #1 defenseman, but the Pens and Canes have won recent Cups without one, too (Gonchar was like Timonen for Pittsburgh). All that is required without blowing up the team is a few minor tweaks to make the team very competitive... and luckily they will only have to defeat one Western team to win a Cup.

I'm glad Holmgren stayed with the core he had... hopefully he doesn't blow it up in the summer.

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03-07-2014, 01:54 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Curufinwe View Post
Gus has played better than Grossmann and Schenn this season. That's why he leads the team in +/-.
But Gustafsson isn't competing for a roster spot with Grossmann or Schenn. The Flyers seem to want at least 2 physical presences on the blue-line. Gustafsson is competing with "non-physical" guys like Timonen, Coburn, Streit, and MacDonald/Meszaros, all of whom are better options than him at this point in time. He got most of his time when Meszaros was looking awful, which is fine. He will get a roster spot if/when he shows he is a better option.

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03-07-2014, 02:01 PM
  #79
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I think MacDonald is physical enough to play second pairing with Streit, and would help cover for Streit's average speed.

Coburn-Kimmo
MacDonald-Streit
Gus-Schenn

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03-07-2014, 02:07 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by CanadianFlyer88 View Post
So management has provided the coach with a poor roster and the coach is poor...

How do the Flyers have a 33-21-6 record under this poor coach with such poor players?


Not really directed at you, but it's a common theme. The Flyers are a Saturday win (and a Tampa loss) from having the 4th best record in the East. Every team has flaws and, while I don't think the Flyers have a great shot at winning a Cup this year, they're really not that far away.

Sure the team's missing a true #1 defenseman, but the Pens and Canes have won recent Cups without one, too (Gonchar was like Timonen for Pittsburgh). All that is required without blowing up the team is a few minor tweaks to make the team very competitive... and luckily they will only have to defeat one Western team to win a Cup.

I'm glad Holmgren stayed with the core he had... hopefully he doesn't blow it up in the summer.
I don't think the roster is particularly poor, just not contention material. It has some pretty serious shortcomings and there are a lot of teams that know how to exploit it. See most games vs NJ and NYR in recent years. It's too easy for teams with strong forechecks to keep us hemmed in our own zone. That's an issue with the poorly constructed defense. Too many slow players, too many one-dimensional players, too many players who can't handle the puck. Everyone on our defense falls under one of those categories except Gus and MacDonald.

Another issue is we don't have any clear cut goal scorers. We saw this problem more in the first half of the season, but it's still an issue. Giroux is our leading goal scorer and it looks like we might end the year with no one even hitting 30. We need players who can put it in the net from less than ideal opportunities or against hot goalies, and right now we don't have many players that can make those difficult shots. This isn't a particularly pressing issue compared to defense, but it would be very helpful if it could be solved.

I do think Berube is a poor coach, though. He makes awful roster decisions, he sends mixed messages to our young players, there is no accountability for veterans, and no solution for the persistent penalties. He is below average at in-game adjustments and will often let games get away from him before he tries to take control and he's gotten lucky with all our comebacks. I think he has an average system that the players have made work. We have a good team with strong player leadership and that's whats kept our record looking good.

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03-07-2014, 02:08 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Curufinwe View Post
I think MacDonald is physical enough to play second pairing with Streit, and would help cover for Streit's average speed.

Coburn-Kimmo
MacDonald-Streit
Gus-Schenn
I think this is what 90% of Flyers fans want to see at this point. Seems Grossmann can do no wrong with Berube, though.

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03-07-2014, 04:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xifentoozlerix View Post
But Gustafsson isn't competing for a roster spot with Grossmann or Schenn. The Flyers seem to want at least 2 physical presences on the blue-line. Gustafsson is competing with "non-physical" guys like Timonen, Coburn, Streit, and MacDonald/Meszaros, all of whom are better options than him at this point in time. He got most of his time when Meszaros was looking awful, which is fine. He will get a roster spot if/when he shows he is a better option.
The Flyers seeming to want those two physical presences is part of their philosophy problem. If Gus is playing better than Grossmann and/or Schenn (and he has) then he should be playing over them.

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03-07-2014, 04:32 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Schmidty324 View Post
The Flyers seeming to want those two physical presences is part of their philosophy problem. If Gus is playing better than Grossmann and/or Schenn (and he has) then he should be playing over them.
You need a mix of players and skills. I am not a fan of Grossmann but even if you say Gus is better then Grossman it is only marginally. However, Grossmann kills penalties and can play against bigger forwards while Gus' skill are more wearily duplicated by Kimmo and Streit.

I just look at Gus and see now that 2 different coaches have not thought he was a NHL regular. It reminds of how everyone chastised the Flyers for not signing Sunshine but the guy went undrafted when he went back into the draft but everyone knew better then the Flyers.

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03-07-2014, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by lancer247 View Post
You need a mix of players and skills. I am not a fan of Grossmann but even if you say Gus is better then Grossman it is only marginally. However, Grossmann kills penalties and can play against bigger forwards while Gus' skill are more wearily duplicated by Kimmo and Streit.

I just look at Gus and see now that 2 different coaches have not thought he was a NHL regular. It reminds of how everyone chastised the Flyers for not signing Sunshine but the guy went undrafted when he went back into the draft but everyone knew better then the Flyers.
Who is Sunshine?

And well I recall Berube trusting Gus at times on the PK, though his stats don't really back me up on that so maybe i'm delusional. But i still would personally trust him on the PK with Schenn. He at least deserves more of a chance to show what he can do imo

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03-08-2014, 06:20 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by CanadianFlyer88 View Post
So management has provided the coach with a poor roster and the coach is poor...

How do the Flyers have a 33-21-6 record under this poor coach with such poor players?


Not really directed at you, but it's a common theme. The Flyers are a Saturday win (and a Tampa loss) from having the 4th best record in the East. Every team has flaws and, while I don't think the Flyers have a great shot at winning a Cup this year, they're really not that far away.

Sure the team's missing a true #1 defenseman, but the Pens and Canes have won recent Cups without one, too (Gonchar was like Timonen for Pittsburgh). All that is required without blowing up the team is a few minor tweaks to make the team very competitive... and luckily they will only have to defeat one Western team to win a Cup.

I'm glad Holmgren stayed with the core he had... hopefully he doesn't blow it up in the summer.
The offense is good, and sometimes the defense is ok.
But overall the defense is average to below average.
I do not share your optomism about the overall state of the team.
Right now they are on a roll and look like a lock to make the playoffs.
But, their mirage of a defense could reappear at any moment.

MacDonald does not replace Timonen, he just an improvement over Mez.
When Kimmo leaves we need more than a tweak to compete.
We need a partner for Coburn who can handle top minutes.
We do not need another bandaid like MacDonald on the 1st pairing.

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03-08-2014, 09:48 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Schmidty324 View Post
Who is Sunshine?

And well I recall Berube trusting Gus at times on the PK, though his stats don't really back me up on that so maybe i'm delusional. But i still would personally trust him on the PK with Schenn. He at least deserves more of a chance to show what he can do imo
Joacim Erickson

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03-08-2014, 10:48 AM
  #87
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Damn, the Gus love affair is so crazy. The guy is not that good, sorry. He's sitting in the pressbox because Coach Berube has to put the best roster on the ice every game. There are 6 defensemen on this roster that are better then Erik Gustafsson, and we have been lucky with injuries so far this year. That is why he is in the pressbox.
he has performed better then Grossman and Meszaros when he was here.
he is what he is. a cheap bottom pairing guy. I still think they should find a way to get this guy in the lineup. Yet when he goes in the lineup he has to be perfect. if he makes even a small percentage of mistakes that Grossman makes he is on the bench.
Some guys are seemingly allowed to suck every night without consequences . like Grossman.

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03-08-2014, 11:03 AM
  #88
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i would of liked Vanek but the forwards have not been the problem. i didnt want to trade for him just to trade for him. the forwards have been pretty good of late. we seem to have found some good chemistry with everyone so I am sure Holmgren thought it would be best to leave the forward group alone and I agree.
reason why they never were really in on Kesler as well

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