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Dear Michel Therrien,

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Old
03-07-2014, 11:49 AM
  #51
Jigger77
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Originally Posted by daGreenGiant View Post
you haven't watched a single game properly if you think that Therrien is imposing the same structure game and system as last year, honestly. Went from a puck possession game to the ****ing trap and dump and chase. Every single play where the offensive zone is attempted to be settled in and the Habs are heavily pressured, they will dump the puck only to lose it and start the whole process again. Last year there was a whole lot more wheeling and dealing.
He didn't change the system. There's no evidence of it at all and it's just completely nonsensical. He has the same group of players as last year (pretty much) and they had some of the best stats in the league last year at a lot of levels. Unless Therrien decided to sabotage his job and purposely change a winning formula for some obscure reason. Unfortunately this thing called logic and common sense shows a sensible thinking person that that makes no sense whatsoever.

Yes there is a change, but other factors, such as some players not performing as well as last year are far more likely the cause of the discrepancy you are seeing.

People can believe what they want and I know it's trendy in here to hate on everything management, but when something just doesn't make sense it doesn't make sense.

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Old
03-07-2014, 11:52 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Jigger77 View Post
He didn't change the system. There's no evidence of it at all and it's just completely nonsensical. He has the same group of players as last year (pretty much) and they had some of the best stats in the league last year at a lot of levels. Unless Therrien decided to sabotage his job and purposely change a winning formula for some obscure reason. Unfortunately this thing called logic and common sense shows a sensible thinking person that that makes no sense whatsoever.

Yes there is a change, but other factors, such as some players not performing as well as last year are far more likely the cause of the discrepancy you are seeing.

People can believe what they want and I know it's trendy in here to hate on everything management, but when something just doesn't make sense it doesn't make sense.
We were not a grinding team that often found themselves dumping the puck last year, this year, according to Therrien himself, we are.

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Old
03-07-2014, 12:00 PM
  #53
Jigger77
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
We were not a grinding team that often found themselves dumping the puck last year, this year, according to Therrien himself, we are.
I get it now. You guys are basing this entire premise on that 3 second snippet from that TV show.

Somehow you decided that that meant he changed the entire system?

I mean you can believe what you want and if you have fun with it it's really harmless, but are you seriously convincing yourself of that based on that tv show snippet?

Or are you "assuming" he changed the system?

Because if you're assuming that's another story. It's a theory you have, not something that you can say factually happened.

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Old
03-07-2014, 12:56 PM
  #54
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I can point to the exact moment this grinding system started.

The day Gallagher got moved to the DD line.

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03-07-2014, 07:53 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Jigger77 View Post
I never heard that mentioned outside of here. Did MT specifically say he changed the system?

If he specifically said somewhere that he changed the system then I agree entirely that it's somewhat incomprehensible.
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
We were not a grinding team that often found themselves dumping the puck last year, this year, according to Therrien himself, we are.
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Originally Posted by Jigger77 View Post
I get it now. You guys are basing this entire premise on that 3 second snippet from that TV show.
So you ask for an explicit comment from Therrien regarding the switch to a "grinding" style, are given it, then attach a duration requirement?



So basically, unless Therrien comes out and gives a Saint Crispin's Day Speech on changing the system, you refuse to believe he has?

Despite dropping from 5th in ES GF to 26th?
Despite dropping from 5th on the PP to 13th?
Despite the fact that our shot differential went from +3.7 to -2.2?
Despite the fact that our winning percentage when trailing after 1 went from .421 to .219?
Despite the vast majority of our forwards have regressed offensively?

All of this is on the players, none on the coach?

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Originally Posted by Jigger77 View Post
He didn't change the system. There's no evidence of it at all and it's just completely nonsensical.
No evidence except:

Dropping from 5th in ES GF to 26th
Dropping from 5th on the PP to 13th
Our shot differential went from +3.7 to -2.2
Our winning percentage when trailing after 1 went from .421 to .219
The vast majority of our forwards have regressed offensively

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Originally Posted by Jigger77 View Post
Yes there is a change, but other factors, such as some players not performing as well as last year are far more likely the cause of the discrepancy you are seeing.
Yeah, it's far more likely that all of our players decided to stop playing a system that brought them success last year, and have decided on their own to grind it out...

...or that the majority of them all took giant leaps backwards or simply stopped caring about scoring goals or winning games.

Clearly, the probability of these factors applying to multiple players during the same season all at the same time is greater than the probability of one guy (who got fired from a team with Sidney Crosby and Evgeni Malkin) being incompetent.

What's more likely is that you have no idea what "more likely" means.

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Old
03-07-2014, 08:30 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Winter Eclipse View Post
So you ask for an explicit comment from Therrien regarding the switch to a "grinding" style, are given it, then attach a duration requirement?



So basically, unless Therrien comes out and gives a Saint Crispin's Day Speech on changing the system, you refuse to believe he has?

Despite dropping from 5th in ES GF to 26th?
Despite dropping from 5th on the PP to 13th?
Despite the fact that our shot differential went from +3.7 to -2.2?
Despite the fact that our winning percentage when trailing after 1 went from .421 to .219?
Despite the vast majority of our forwards have regressed offensively?

All of this is on the players, none on the coach?



No evidence except:

Dropping from 5th in ES GF to 26th
Dropping from 5th on the PP to 13th
Our shot differential went from +3.7 to -2.2
Our winning percentage when trailing after 1 went from .421 to .219
The vast majority of our forwards have regressed offensively



Yeah, it's far more likely that all of our players decided to stop playing a system that brought them success last year, and have decided on their own to grind it out...

...or that the majority of them all took giant leaps backwards or simply stopped caring about scoring goals or winning games.

Clearly, the probability of these factors applying to multiple players during the same season all at the same time is greater than the probability of one guy (who got fired from a team with Sidney Crosby and Evgeni Malkin) being incompetent.

What's more likely is that you have no idea what "more likely" means.
Nobody "decides" to stop playing well. Some key players (Emelin, Eller, Prust to an extent) are not having as good a year as last year. Coaches and players on this team regularly mention that they win when they stick to the game plan and they get in trouble when they deviate from it. Something definitely is different than last year. Personally I think it's some players not playing at their best like last year and second the team deviating from the game plan a bit more often at times. They did not decide conscientiously to do this, it's probably largely psychological. Maybe they started thinking they were a better team than they actually were I don't know. And yet they're still near the top of the conference so it's not like they are a sinking ship.

But you'll never convince me that any sane person looks at those numbers you posted for last year and then decides to change anything, let alone change the system entirely. (assuming that as much as you hate Therrien like he killed your dog we agree at least that he is a sane person)

Why? Because it's completely ridiculous to assume so. He could have been seriously considered for coach of the year last year. You think he's going to decide to change his system? Get real.

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Old
03-08-2014, 09:25 AM
  #57
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by Jigger77 View Post
Nobody "decides" to stop playing well. Some key players (Emelin, Eller, Prust to an extent) are not having as good a year as last year. Coaches and players on this team regularly mention that they win when they stick to the game plan and they get in trouble when they deviate from it. Something definitely is different than last year. Personally I think it's some players not playing at their best like last year and second the team deviating from the game plan a bit more often at times. They did not decide conscientiously to do this, it's probably largely psychological. Maybe they started thinking they were a better team than they actually were I don't know. And yet they're still near the top of the conference so it's not like they are a sinking ship.

But you'll never convince me that any sane person looks at those numbers you posted for last year and then decides to change anything, let alone change the system entirely. (assuming that as much as you hate Therrien like he killed your dog we agree at least that he is a sane person)

Why? Because it's completely ridiculous to assume so. He could have been seriously considered for coach of the year last year. You think he's going to decide to change his system? Get real.
Dude, how can you even say this after having written all of that?

You are trying to come up with any and every possible reason to blame the players for their lack of production, from saying they're just having worst years (without attacking the ''why'' part) to them not being as good as they thought to them being undisciplined and deviating from the system to flat out not knowing why.
And yet, you refuse to acknowledge Therrien's own words (after you asked for them btw) because it goes against your opinion.
You see, even after you asked for proof from Therrien related to the system, and it was brought forward to you, you ignored it. And you dare ask someone else to ''get real''???

Let me ask you this, Therrien has insisted (on more than one occasion btw) that we are a grinding team, do you agree with that statement??
When you look at this roster, do you see this team as a ''grinding'' one??
Were we playing a grinding style last year?

All these questions have very simple answers, but I'll enjoy seeing you side peddle in order to save face.
If you want to be the bigger man though, just at least admit the possibility that the coach messed up the system.
Don't try to find reasoning behind it, people do stupid senseless things at times. This wouldn't be the first time. We had one of the best PP in the NHL earlier in the year, then we started heavily using DD's line as the top unit and our numbers have been on a steady decline since. Those numbers are right there for our coaches to see, and yet, no changes on the PP. Can you explain the logic there? Of course not.
Can you explain to me the logic in putting our 4th line along with our bottom pairing Dmen out there, on more than one occasion ?? Can you explain to me why Therrien kept putting out the 4th line after they got caught not once but twice??

Don't try to find a logical explanation for everything. Sometimes it's just not there.

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Old
03-08-2014, 10:53 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Dude, how can you even say this after having written all of that?

You are trying to come up with any and every possible reason to blame the players for their lack of production, from saying they're just having worst years (without attacking the ''why'' part) to them not being as good as they thought to them being undisciplined and deviating from the system to flat out not knowing why.
And yet, you refuse to acknowledge Therrien's own words (after you asked for them btw) because it goes against your opinion.
You see, even after you asked for proof from Therrien related to the system, and it was brought forward to you, you ignored it. And you dare ask someone else to ''get real''???

Let me ask you this, Therrien has insisted (on more than one occasion btw) that we are a grinding team, do you agree with that statement??
When you look at this roster, do you see this team as a ''grinding'' one??
Were we playing a grinding style last year?

All these questions have very simple answers, but I'll enjoy seeing you side peddle in order to save face.
If you want to be the bigger man though, just at least admit the possibility that the coach messed up the system.
Don't try to find reasoning behind it, people do stupid senseless things at times. This wouldn't be the first time. We had one of the best PP in the NHL earlier in the year, then we started heavily using DD's line as the top unit and our numbers have been on a steady decline since. Those numbers are right there for our coaches to see, and yet, no changes on the PP. Can you explain the logic there? Of course not.
Can you explain to me the logic in putting our 4th line along with our bottom pairing Dmen out there, on more than one occasion ?? Can you explain to me why Therrien kept putting out the 4th line after they got caught not once but twice??

Don't try to find a logical explanation for everything. Sometimes it's just not there.
Coach said on TV we're a grinding team - He changed the system!

I'm not even remotely trying to come up with every reason to blame the players. What you don't understand is that the players and coach aren't pitted against one another. They are together all trying to win. It's like you're completely unable to see things objectively. Do you think Therrien woke up one day and said you know what these awesome stats suck, the players are looking too good. Let's change our style of play so that we suck more. Come on man.

Yes I believe that by in large Habs are a grinding team. Grinding team does not equate to less puck possession. Habs were the same team last year, they just executed better. Also they were "new" and other teams have figured them out a lot more this year.


And thanks for the advice about not finding a logical explanation to things, but I'll stick with logic. It's been good to me. You should try it sometime.

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03-08-2014, 11:13 AM
  #59
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Therrien is a subpar coach, it's pretty damn obvious to me. But he's who we're stuck with so we might as well just pray for miracles and for the team to grind it out in the playoffs somehow because he's not getting fired if they finish in the top 3 in their division.

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03-08-2014, 11:16 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Jigger77 View Post
Coach said on TV we're a grinding team - He changed the system!

I'm not even remotely trying to come up with every reason to blame the players. What you don't understand is that the players and coach aren't pitted against one another. They are together all trying to win. It's like you're completely unable to see things objectively. Do you think Therrien woke up one day and said you know what these awesome stats suck, the players are looking too good. Let's change our style of play so that we suck more. Come on man.

Yes I believe that by in large Habs are a grinding team. Grinding team does not equate to less puck possession. Habs were the same team last year, they just executed better. Also they were "new" and other teams have figured them out a lot more this year.


And thanks for the advice about not finding a logical explanation to things, but I'll stick with logic. It's been good to me. You should try it sometime.
What's with the strawman, again? Do you think anybody in this thread is implying that therrien did anything to make the team worse on purpose? Enough with that. It's childish.

And of course the team is trying together to win, when did anybody say anything to the contrary?

And there is precedent when it comes to therrien seeing a working system and changing it. And there can be logic in that. If you think you can improve something, why not try? Before he came in we had a fantastic PK. They changed it to a diamond kinda formation in the first year and it sunk like a rock.

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03-08-2014, 11:35 AM
  #61
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What's with the strawman, again? Do you think anybody in this thread is implying that therrien did anything to make the team worse on purpose? Enough with that. It's childish.

And of course the team is trying together to win, when did anybody say anything to the contrary?

And there is precedent when it comes to therrien seeing a working system and changing it. And there can be logic in that. If you think you can improve something, why not try? Before he came in we had a fantastic PK. They changed it to a diamond kinda formation in the first year and it sunk like a rock.
I'm not saying anyone is implying that. I'm using that point to show how ludicrous the entire assumption is. Very different.

Has Therrien made adjustments that didn't work out so well? Of course. That's coaching. Did he wake up one day and decide to change the system entirely? Highly doubt it.

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03-08-2014, 11:40 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Jigger77 View Post
I'm not saying anyone is implying that. I'm using that point to show how ludicrous the entire assumption is. Very different.

Has Therrien made adjustments that didn't work out so well? Of course. That's coaching. Did he wake up one day and decide to change the system entirely? Highly doubt it.
One of the biggest changes appears to be the transition. Forwards are generally really far from the D and many times just waiting for tap ins/redirects at the blue line. Last year there was more of a focus on maintaining possession of the puck while crossing the blue line and using the team's speed. Now it's 90% dump and chase, which has definitely hurt us. We also don't seem to forecheck as aggressively. We used to employ a very strong 2 man forecheck to provoke turnovers. Now we usually have like 1 guy being decently aggressive and the 2nd man hanging back towards the neutral zone. I've heard/seen it theorized that we've switched to a more passive system (forechecking wise) to keep the forewards from wearing down by the playoffs.

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03-08-2014, 11:50 AM
  #63
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Dear Michel Therrien,

Please shave your head. Ever since you were hired I've been praying that you will finally wake up one day and shave your god damn head. Please realize that no matter how bad you will look completely bald it is still better than your current hair do.

We all suffer from denial so don't be too hard on yourself. Not everyone is a stud. You are definitely not. Please don't make that an excuse to keep this hair do. This isn't 1984.

By the way I think you are a horrible coach. Please see OP.

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03-08-2014, 11:53 AM
  #64
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One of the biggest changes appears to be the transition. Forwards are generally really far from the D and many times just waiting for tap ins/redirects at the blue line. Last year there was more of a focus on maintaining possession of the puck while crossing the blue line and using the team's speed. Now it's 90% dump and chase, which has definitely hurt us. We also don't seem to forecheck as aggressively. We used to employ a very strong 2 man forecheck to provoke turnovers. Now we usually have like 1 guy being decently aggressive and the 2nd man hanging back towards the neutral zone.
I agree. To me it starts down low in the defensive zone. I see extreme problems just getting the puck out of their zone compared to last year. Are the forwards further out I don't know. I remember JM called that puck support, he had the forwards come back really deep and insisted on short passes out of the zone. Trouble with that is you give all the time for a team to setup and trap in the neutral zone, thus basically neutralizing your speed. So I can see why they'd want to stretch out those passes a little to spring guys in the neutral zone and take advantage of their speedy forwards and force the other team's forwards and D to turn and chase a little more. What could have happened this year is other teams clued in on this so they started using a much heavier forecheck against our D. And your second point I also agree with. But isn't a "grinding" team is just that? To me "grinding" means heavy forecheck deep and winning battles to create turnovers, whereas a non grinding team would be more inclined to try and score on the rush and sit back a little more. So maybe it's not that Therrien changed anything, maybe collectively as a group they have to go back to what's made them successful last year.

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03-08-2014, 12:05 PM
  #65
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Therrien is not the one who forces GIonta to take 50 feet slappers, who forces Eller to just turn the puck over after outdeking himself in the offensive zone, who forces Galchenyuk to try pee-wee dekes when he comes in the offensive zone on the rush at centerice instead of taking the higher percentage play, who forces Prust to think he has silky hands this year, or who forced Desharnais NOT to make those incredible plays in the offensive zone earlier this year.

For Habs fans, there always are 2 targets; Goalies and Coaches. Reality is; in a 20 players roster, it's simplistic to always bring it down to one of those two factors.

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03-08-2014, 12:07 PM
  #66
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Dear Michel,

Ask your daughter is she wants to take me out on a date. Also let her know I'm a cheap drunk!

Cheers,

Habsawce

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03-08-2014, 12:11 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by HiggsBozon View Post
Therrien is not the one who forces GIonta to take 50 feet slappers, who forces Eller to just turn the puck over after outdeking himself in the offensive zone, who forces Galchenyuk to try pee-wee dekes when he comes in the offensive zone on the rush at centerice instead of taking the higher percentage play, who forces Prust to think he has silky hands this year, or who forced Desharnais NOT to make those incredible plays in the offensive zone earlier this year.

For Habs fans, there always are 2 targets; Goalies and Coaches. Reality is; in a 20 players roster, it's simplistic to always bring it down to one of those two factors.
Well said. Nice to hear other people see things with a little wider lens than #FireTherrien!

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03-08-2014, 12:20 PM
  #68
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Well said. Nice to hear other people see things with a little wider lens than #FireTherrien!
So how do you explain Gionta on the 1st and 2nd lines playing alongside Vanek...?

That's just poor line management.

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03-08-2014, 12:34 PM
  #69
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So how do you explain Gionta on the 1st and 2nd lines playing alongside Vanek...?

That's just poor line management.
If Plekanec is actually as good as his apologists claim him to be on this board, he'll find a way to make the #4 goal scorer in the NHL since 05-06 produce, and himself by the same occasion... No matter what/who is on the other wing.

You guys said Plekanec was always the one getting screwed by his wingers/coach? Well he finally has one of the league's very best player on his side. That should suffice.

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03-08-2014, 12:37 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by HiggsBozon View Post
Therrien is not the one who forces GIonta to take 50 feet slappers, who forces Eller to just turn the puck over after outdeking himself in the offensive zone, who forces Galchenyuk to try pee-wee dekes when he comes in the offensive zone on the rush at centerice instead of taking the higher percentage play, who forces Prust to think he has silky hands this year, or who forced Desharnais NOT to make those incredible plays in the offensive zone earlier this year.

For Habs fans, there always are 2 targets; Goalies and Coaches. Reality is; in a 20 players roster, it's simplistic to always bring it down to one of those two factors.
Yes because no player ever gets criticized here except for goalies and coaching. Talk about having a selective memory just to make a "point"

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03-08-2014, 12:44 PM
  #71
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Yes because no player ever gets criticized here except for goalies and coaching. Talk about having a selective memory just to make a "point"
Oh, yeah... Other players get criticized. Those people actually criticizing those other "more popular" guys on this board get called out more often than not, and are treated like idiots though.

Who dares pronouncing in vain the name of the great Lars Eller here? Or Plekanec for that matter?

Nah. You'll find about 90 complaints about Therrien/Desharnais/Goaltending here for every 100 complaints.

You'd think this team were the '80s Oilers the way people talk about Therrien and the management here. No objectivity whatsoever, just a bunch of obnoxiousness.

Habs fans are so predictable that, I bet even if Vanek/Plekanec are doing **** all in the next few weeks, people will still find a way to discredit the coach and somehow bring a "rational" explanation on how Therrien screwed it all up, and that it's not that maybe, just maybe, Plekanec isn't the kind of guy who will feed his linemates all that much, and that maybe, once again, Therrien saw it correctly before all of this board, and that it's why he didn't bother loading up his line with offensive weapons anyway.

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03-08-2014, 12:53 PM
  #72
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This is the NHL, even the top teams need a lot of "grinding" to win. Doesn't prevent our fans from completely misunderstanding what MT wants...but go on...

Team Canada had a ridiculous amount of skill, but what won them the gold is their top players were willing to grind and play defense and others(Russians and US) were not as willing.
"We are a grinding team, accept that"

Pretty hard to misunderstand those words.

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03-08-2014, 12:57 PM
  #73
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"We are a grinding team, accept that"

Pretty hard to misunderstand those words.
And still, people blow it out of proportions. We don't have the players to play a run and gun kind of game. Neither do we have the players to play a puck-possesion, cycling game. We have a group who will score on turnovers on the rush, or after stealing the puck by winning a race for it, or, like Therrien would say, grinding out for it.

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03-08-2014, 01:12 PM
  #74
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And still, people blow it out of proportions. We don't have the players to play a run and gun kind of game. Neither do we have the players to play a puck-possesion, cycling game. We have a group who will score on turnovers on the rush, or after stealing the puck by winning a race for it, or, like Therrien would say, grinding out for it.
That's nonsense. We were one of the best puck possession teams in the league last year.

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03-08-2014, 01:13 PM
  #75
coolasprICE
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiggsBozon View Post
If Plekanec is actually as good as his apologists claim him to be on this board, he'll find a way to make the #4 goal scorer in the NHL since 05-06 produce, and himself by the same occasion... No matter what/who is on the other wing.

You guys said Plekanec was always the one getting screwed by his wingers/coach? Well he finally has one of the league's very best player on his side. That should suffice.
addition by subraction = Brian Gionta

Let's be critical of Pleky once he's liberated.

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