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Dear Michel Therrien,

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Old
03-08-2014, 05:31 PM
  #101
Habs_Apostle
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I'm not suggesting this is a Stanely Cup calibre roster and nowhere did I suggest it was.

But we shouldn't be at the bottom in terms of offense either. And we shouldn't be getting outplayed every night the way we are and letting our goalies save our ass.

Most coaches don't have a goalie as good as Carey Price.

Tell me what it is.

We're outplayed, outchanced, our younger players are regressing, our Norris winner is called out all the time, near the bottom in scoring, our PP (which should be absolutely awesome) has sunk like a stone, he's playing favorites with lesser players and calling out players in the press.

The ONLY thing going for us is our place in the standings and that's largely due to our goalie.

You tell me. What should we praise him for? 'Cause the only thing we have going for us is goaltending and he has nothing to do with that.

Why did Bouillion play on the PP? Why does one line get all the PP opps and doesn't produce? Why does he start our supposed shut down defenseman in the offensive zone all the time?

YOU explain it because I can't. We're where we are in the standings because of Vezina caliber goaltending... that's it.
I don't have the answers. But you seemed to have studied Therrien much more throughly than I have, so that's why I asked.

As someone else pointed out, Therrien certainly doesn't make all the right decisions. But to claim he's solely to blame for everything that goes wrong and never to be given credit for anything that goes right seems somewhat radical to me. And it's been my experience that when someone takes a radical position (religious, political, or otherwise) and I ask for more of a balanced argument and they can't provide it, that they haven't thought things through very thoroughly and that they don't know what they claim to know. There's arguing simply to be right and support one's position at all costs and then there's arguing to try to achieve some clarity on the issue. I mean, I'd be more convinced if you could say, alright, here's what Therrien does well, BUT here's where I think he's dropping the ball. But you're just - he's completely incompetent in every way imaginable!

Don't you think your hate may be blinding you a little on this issue?

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Old
03-08-2014, 05:42 PM
  #102
Lafleurs Guy
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Originally Posted by Habs_Apostle View Post
I don't have the answers. But you seemed to have studied Therrien much more throughly than I have, so that's why I asked.

As someone else pointed out, Therrien certainly doesn't make all the right decisions. But to claim he's solely to blame for everything that goes wrong and never to be given credit for anything that goes right seems somewhat radical to me.
Solely to blame for anything that goes wrong? I don't remember writing that and I don't believe this.

That being said, I think he's a crappy coach and I don't see what he's done well this year. I'd love to hear what you think he's done well though. Please tell me.

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And it's been my experience that when someone takes a radical position (religious, political, or otherwise) and I ask for more of a balanced argument and they can't provide it, that they haven't thought things through very thoroughly and that they don't know what they claim to know. There's arguing simply to be right and support one's position at all costs and then there's arguing to try to achieve some clarity on the issue. I mean, I'd be more convinced if you could say, alright, here's what Therrien does well, BUT here's where I think he's dropping the ball. But you're just - he's completely incompetent in every way imaginable!
I don't think I've said anything radical at all. I've said he's a terrible coach, I've told you why and I've backed it up. It's not like there's no reason to believe this.

Tell me what he's done right this year. Our play has sucked, our offense has sucked, he's managed to kill a powerhouse PP... he's just lucky enough to have one of the best goalies in the world making up for this.
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Originally Posted by Habs_Apostle View Post
Don't you think your hate may be blinding you a little on this issue?
Why would I randomly hate this or any other coach? Doesn't make sense.

I hate seeing what he's doing with this team and I've told you why. You're talking like it's something personal and I'm making stuff up to justify hating him... You've got things backwards. He's made idiotic decisions and for THAT reason, I hate him as a coach.

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Old
03-08-2014, 05:49 PM
  #103
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The silver lining is that MT has to have some success this post-season/down the stretch. This is the most talented Habs team on paper witnessed in a very long time top to bottom with Vanek with the fewest injuries. He can't have a worse showing than past teams with worse teams and a ton of injuries.

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03-08-2014, 05:55 PM
  #104
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by Habs_Apostle View Post
The problem with this logic is that in the past teams have frequently had great years and then terrible years, all without a change in coaching. I'm not so sure it necessarily follows that it's the coach if the team doesn't do well one year. The claim you know this with utter certainty, given the complexity of trying to figure such a thing out, makes me doubt your sanity. As someone pointed out, there are so many factors to consider. And, honestly, we're not doing that bad, really.
Sure, other teams have followed great years with terrible ones, without a coaching change, but with change elsewhere. Maybe it was injuries, maybe it was key players leaving, maybe players tuned out their coach because they're tired of his antics or wtv, no matter what there definitely always is a reason(or reasons) as to why a team doesn't play as well as it can/could/should.

In our case, little change in the roster, no significant key injuries, so what is it? Is every single player in the top 9 just coincidentally having a worse season for no apparent reason? Does this make more sense than looking at what the coach has done and noticing differences?
We know we aren't playing like we did last year. You don't need basic or advanced stats to even realize this. Just compare the games. Look at how we played last year with much faster transitions, stronger forechecks and just hung onto the puck more, and compare it to the more passive system Therrien has us playing now. How can anybody that watches hockey say this team is playing the same way (or close to it).
Now you want to blame the players for it as Jigger77? You want to think every single player is not executing the same game plan despite it leading them to being one of the best possession and scoring team in the NHL?? If that's what you think, then okay. But I think it's more likely Therrien saw his team get outplayed in the POs, he saw guys tire out by season's end, so he opted to play a more passive system.
We had one of the best PPs in the NHL at the beginning of the year, we suddenly switched it when we broke up the EGG line for the last time and it has consistently declined since then. Why?? Are the players, yet again, deciding not to listen to the directives given to them by the coach??
We had a great balance last year on all 3 lines and shared offensive opportunities. This year, one line has been identified as the heavy duty one for offensive tasks.
These are all changes undeniably made by the coach. Why?

Therrien has tried new things this year and our goalie for the most part has bailed him out. Aside from that 10 game point streak we've been hovering around .500. Even during that hot streak, Price stole games by himself.
This has hidden our mediocrity and that's why you have some people just looking at the standings and say ''we're 3rd, he must be doing something good!''. Well, no, he hasn't done much. Not to help our team win at least. He's been riding the waves of hot players, that's all. We aren't playing well. But we definitely could.

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Old
03-08-2014, 05:57 PM
  #105
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The biggest issue with this team regarding Therrien is his glaring lack of structure.

The Habs more often than not appear to be playing firewagon hockey. As soon as the puck gets on your stick, move forward.

There are some simple fixes that could dramatically improve this team from a playoff team to a contender.

Breakouts. No structure whatsoever. Get the puck and fire it to somewhere. The hardest pass to make in hockey is when a player is pressured and he is not aware of where an open teammate is. In football, offensive players have to make reads on the defense to determine what the play will be. Structure. Set plays based on what the other team is showing with regard to forechecking pressure.

Entries into offensive zone. There are a multitude of teams who easily skate the puck into the zone because they have a plan and structure to react based upon what the opposing team is showing. It is easy to beat a team stacking the blue-line if you have a plan on how to attack it via passing and creating odd man advantages with the puck at the blue line.

Power Play. We have the best offensive DMan in the league on the PP. Teams adjust by sending two forwards high on Subban and Markov. That leaves a three on two low in our favor yet Therrien refuses to take advantage of that. Placing a forward in the crease forces teams into a 2 on 1 disadvantage. Once teams realize we take advantage of what they offer by playing aggressive against our D, they will not crowd Subban as much and then we get the opportunity to use Subban as a potent weapon again. Its all about structuring your attack and change to take advantage of what the other team is showing on defense. Again, looking at reads to decide what to do.

Finally, puck patience. Sometimes the best pass to make is one that is in the opposite direction of where you or going. Or to simply stop. We turn the puck over way too much because of our singular purpose of getting the puck into our offensive zone as fast as possible, regardless of whether there is support for the puck there.

The Habs have adequate firepower on this team to make a run for the Cup. Therrien has to take advantage of this and he is short-changing the team because of it.

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Old
03-08-2014, 06:01 PM
  #106
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Dear Michel Therrien,

Please quit now so that we could get a real coach before the playoffs.

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03-08-2014, 06:09 PM
  #107
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The silver lining (for Therrien bashers) is that if the team crashes and burns down the stretch and gets a quick first round exit after Bergevin's trade for Vanek, that might warrant Therrien getting fired.

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03-08-2014, 06:18 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by JAVO16 View Post
The silver lining (for Therrien bashers) is that if the team crashes and burns down the stretch and gets a quick first round exit after Bergevin's trade for Vanek, that might warrant Therrien getting fired.
The man is a complete and utter moron and gets out coached on a regular basis. Bashing him is well warranted.

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03-08-2014, 06:28 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by JAVO16 View Post
The silver lining (for Therrien bashers) is that if the team crashes and burns down the stretch and gets a quick first round exit after Bergevin's trade for Vanek, that might warrant Therrien getting fired.
Statistically the odds are in their favor. And when it happens, we'll hire a new guy, things will be rosy for awhile, and then he'll get bashed, eventually fired, rinse, repeat. Some old **** over and over. Well, at least there'll be a reprieve from the whining, if only temporarily.

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03-08-2014, 06:31 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Saintpatrick View Post
The man is a complete and utter moron and gets out coached on a regular basis. Bashing him is well warranted.
Coming from you, it is very credible.


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Old
03-08-2014, 07:02 PM
  #111
Habs_Apostle
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Sure, other teams have followed great years with terrible ones, without a coaching change, but with change elsewhere. Maybe it was injuries, maybe it was key players leaving, maybe players tuned out their coach because they're tired of his antics or wtv, no matter what there definitely always is a reason(or reasons) as to why a team doesn't play as well as it can/could/should.

In our case, little change in the roster, no significant key injuries, so what is it? Is every single player in the top 9 just coincidentally having a worse season for no apparent reason? Does this make more sense than looking at what the coach has done and noticing differences?
We know we aren't playing like we did last year. You don't need basic or advanced stats to even realize this. Just compare the games. Look at how we played last year with much faster transitions, stronger forechecks and just hung onto the puck more, and compare it to the more passive system Therrien has us playing now. How can anybody that watches hockey say this team is playing the same way (or close to it).
Now you want to blame the players for it as Jigger77? You want to think every single player is not executing the same game plan despite it leading them to being one of the best possession and scoring team in the NHL?? If that's what you think, then okay. But I think it's more likely Therrien saw his team get outplayed in the POs, he saw guys tire out by season's end, so he opted to play a more passive system.
We had one of the best PPs in the NHL at the beginning of the year, we suddenly switched it when we broke up the EGG line for the last time and it has consistently declined since then. Why?? Are the players, yet again, deciding not to listen to the directives given to them by the coach??
We had a great balance last year on all 3 lines and shared offensive opportunities. This year, one line has been identified as the heavy duty one for offensive tasks.
These are all changes undeniably made by the coach. Why?

Therrien has tried new things this year and our goalie for the most part has bailed him out. Aside from that 10 game point streak we've been hovering around .500. Even during that hot streak, Price stole games by himself.
This has hidden our mediocrity and that's why you have some people just looking at the standings and say ''we're 3rd, he must be doing something good!''. Well, no, he hasn't done much. Not to help our team win at least. He's been riding the waves of hot players, that's all. We aren't playing well. But we definitely could.
I don't think, on the other side of the coin, that Therrien is blameless in all this. I think what most are saying is that it's a combination of coaches (and NOT just Therrien) AND players that explains what's going on, that's all.

I think we need to keep in mind there's an organic relationship between players and coaches. I mean I assume they're communicating with one another and together working through a myriad of issues from game to game. As with any relationship, why just blame one partner over the other? It's about the coaches (again NOT just Therrien) and players together communicating to solve problems and issues as they arise so as to improve performance and achieve success. We're outsiders that have no freaking idea what's going on behind the scenes. As such, quoting paltry statistics to support broad, unassailable arguments, seems to me, not to get us very far


Last edited by Habs_Apostle: 03-08-2014 at 07:08 PM.
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Old
03-08-2014, 07:06 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
The biggest issue with this team regarding Therrien is his glaring lack of structure.

The Habs more often than not appear to be playing firewagon hockey. As soon as the puck gets on your stick, move forward.

There are some simple fixes that could dramatically improve this team from a playoff team to a contender.

Breakouts. No structure whatsoever. Get the puck and fire it to somewhere. The hardest pass to make in hockey is when a player is pressured and he is not aware of where an open teammate is. In football, offensive players have to make reads on the defense to determine what the play will be. Structure. Set plays based on what the other team is showing with regard to forechecking pressure.

Entries into offensive zone. There are a multitude of teams who easily skate the puck into the zone because they have a plan and structure to react based upon what the opposing team is showing. It is easy to beat a team stacking the blue-line if you have a plan on how to attack it via passing and creating odd man advantages with the puck at the blue line.

Power Play. We have the best offensive DMan in the league on the PP. Teams adjust by sending two forwards high on Subban and Markov. That leaves a three on two low in our favor yet Therrien refuses to take advantage of that. Placing a forward in the crease forces teams into a 2 on 1 disadvantage. Once teams realize we take advantage of what they offer by playing aggressive against our D, they will not crowd Subban as much and then we get the opportunity to use Subban as a potent weapon again. Its all about structuring your attack and change to take advantage of what the other team is showing on defense. Again, looking at reads to decide what to do.

Finally, puck patience. Sometimes the best pass to make is one that is in the opposite direction of where you or going. Or to simply stop. We turn the puck over way too much because of our singular purpose of getting the puck into our offensive zone as fast as possible, regardless of whether there is support for the puck there.

The Habs have adequate firepower on this team to make a run for the Cup. Therrien has to take advantage of this and he is short-changing the team because of it.
I'm sure it's easier from a fan's perspective. If we put you in the room, somehow I don't think your suggestions suddenly radically transform this team. Then again, I might be wrong, and therefore you should be coaching in the NHL.

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03-08-2014, 07:19 PM
  #113
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by Habs_Apostle View Post
I don't think, on the other side of the coin, that Therrien is blameless in all this. I think what most are saying is that it's a combination of coaches (and NOT just Therrien) AND players that explains what's going on, that's all.

I think we need to keep in mind there's an organic relationship between players and coaches. I mean I assume they're communicating with one another and together working through a myriad of issues from game to game. As with any relationship, why just blame one partner over the the other? It's about the coaches (again NOT just Therrien) and players together communicating to solve problems and issues as they arise so as to improve performance and achieve success. We're outsiders that have no freaking idea what's going on behind the scenes. As such, quoting paltry statistics to support broad, unassailable arguments, seems to me, not to get us very far.
Hey, people have no problem blaming players when it's warranted. The Kost broz? Kovalev? Grabo? Lappy? Lats? Hammer? etc. Over the years, people have had no issues criticize players for some sloppy or lazy performances on top of weird coaching decisions.
But in this case, which player aside from Bourque can you actually blame??
We're not dealing with some bad lazy players here that are half-assing their game.
Heck, even Briere, can we really blame him? He had no business being signed in the first place.
Eller? Sure, you can put some blame on him, but I can easily point towards the fact he was used differently last year and earlier this year where he was a lot more effective. The biggest change for him was swapping his good linemates for worse ones (which was a coaching decision).
So, who else?

We're not talking about a couple of guys, which happens, we're talking about every single player in our top 9, we're talking about our top pairing Dmen that includes a Norris winner. We're talking about players that have very strong work ethics.
If the system hadn't changed, then okay, everybody here would be blasting the players away. But the system has changed and it's painfully obvious. For better or worse? Well, our team is slightly worse standing wise than last year, production wise it is much much worse though. Will we be better in the POs? That's the gamble the coaching staff I'm guessing is going for. There's no other logical explanation.
Unless you think the vast majority of the players with strong work ethics on our team suddenly decided to take their feet off the pedals and stop execute what the coach preaches. But that doesn't make sense to me.

In some cases, it's all on the players. In some others, it's a mix. And in some others again, it's on the coach.

Why it's easy to point towards the coach in our case? Well it's because we have two samples. This year and last one. With very little change to our roster but a change in our system, the vast majority has regressed this year. You don't need a PHD to realize what has changed the most.

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Old
03-08-2014, 07:26 PM
  #114
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Dear Michel Therrien

Please do the right thing and separate Vanek and Gionta.

Thanks.

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03-08-2014, 10:48 PM
  #115
SouthernHab
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I'm sure it's easier from a fan's perspective. If we put you in the room, somehow I don't think your suggestions suddenly radically transform this team. Then again, I might be wrong, and therefore you should be coaching in the NHL.
No desire to coach. Just observations that teams with structured approaches to offense and defense win the Stanley Cup.

This team is under-coached.

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03-08-2014, 11:17 PM
  #116
iane
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Why the hell did he pull Budaj? Why didn't he pull him after the first goal if he was gonna pull him on the next goal anyway?

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03-08-2014, 11:26 PM
  #117
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This goes out to MT and MB GTFO.

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03-08-2014, 11:48 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Habs_Apostle View Post
Statistically the odds are in their favor. And when it happens, we'll hire a new guy, things will be rosy for awhile, and then he'll get bashed, eventually fired, rinse, repeat. Some old **** over and over. Well, at least there'll be a reprieve from the whining, if only temporarily.
Not if they finally find someone good.

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03-08-2014, 11:52 PM
  #119
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The day Therrien gets fired, I'll be as happy as this week when we scored Vanek.

Major turnaround.

And this is from someone who rarely disses management.

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03-09-2014, 12:21 AM
  #120
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THe EGG line seriously WTF MT it is only about 50 games too late you dumb ****.

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03-09-2014, 12:26 AM
  #121
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The day Therrien gets fired, I'll be as happy as this week when we scored Vanek.

Major turnaround.

And this is from someone who rarely disses management.
Until you realize that the person next in line is Leferbvre.

Will be like the time people wanted Gainey gone but forgot Gauthier was next in line.

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03-09-2014, 12:30 AM
  #122
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Until you realize that the person next in line is Leferbvre.

Will be like the time people wanted Gainey gone but forgot Gauthier was next in line.
And after that it's only a matter of time before Therrien gets a third stint.

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03-09-2014, 12:56 AM
  #123
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Vanek Plek Briere (vets)
Gal Eller Gal (kids)
Pax DD Gio (lovers)

Comon do it Therien!!!!

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03-09-2014, 03:23 AM
  #124
Lafleurs Guy
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Originally Posted by JAVO16 View Post
The silver lining (for Therrien bashers) is that if the team crashes and burns down the stretch and gets a quick first round exit after Bergevin's trade for Vanek, that might warrant Therrien getting fired.
Is it bashing if the criticisms are valid?
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Originally Posted by Saintpatrick View Post
The man is a complete and utter moron and gets out coached on a regular basis. Bashing him is well warranted.
I agree.
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Originally Posted by Habs_Apostle View Post
Statistically the odds are in their favor. And when it happens, we'll hire a new guy, things will be rosy for awhile, and then he'll get bashed, eventually fired, rinse, repeat. Some old **** over and over. Well, at least there'll be a reprieve from the whining, if only temporarily.
Is it whining or legitimate criticism? I think what I've said is warranted.

You've said it's "radical" but haven't backed up why. Nothing radical about saying he's a bad coach because - well, he is.
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Originally Posted by Habs_Apostle View Post
I don't think, on the other side of the coin, that Therrien is blameless in all this. I think what most are saying is that it's a combination of coaches (and NOT just Therrien) AND players that explains what's going on, that's all.

I think we need to keep in mind there's an organic relationship between players and coaches. I mean I assume they're communicating with one another and together working through a myriad of issues from game to game. As with any relationship, why just blame one partner over the other? It's about the coaches (again NOT just Therrien) and players together communicating to solve problems and issues as they arise so as to improve performance and achieve success.
I could swallow this if some players were performing and others weren't but that's not the case. Almost everyone is underperforming. The PP has gone away, there's no transition game...

Cripes man, tough to blame the players when the system sucks like it does here...
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Originally Posted by Habs_Apostle View Post
We're outsiders that have no freaking idea what's going on behind the scenes. As such, quoting paltry statistics to support broad, unassailable arguments, seems to me, not to get us very far
"No idea?"

Let's not be disingenuous here. We have some idea of what's going on because we see the systems on the ice. We hear the BS about MB and MT talking about how Subban was a player who was benched (by them) before they coached him and then went on to win the Norris...

There's been a lot of stupid **** coming from MT. It's commendable that you're here to defend him (even if only as a Devil's Advocate) but he sucks donkey balls. Pick another cause that's actually worthy of your time.

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03-09-2014, 04:14 AM
  #125
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So depressing. The only thing worse than hiring a bad coach is hiring a decent one that lost his ****ing mind. He's slow to adapt, gets out coached on a regular basis, turned an under-sized speedy transition team into a grinding team... seriously wtf!? He preached earning ice-time and then started playing favorites at the expense of the team. A little bit of tough love is fine but he's completely running our star players into the ground.

A horribly coached and uncreative PP. Seriously we are nearing the playoffs and they STILL haven't figured it out? And people were talking about Gallant taking over as next coach after Therrier? GTFO too! I'm done.

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