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Grossmann is the worst defenseman on the team

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Old
01-31-2014, 06:10 PM
  #76
ShawnTHW
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If you'd like to read a good piece on the defense as a whole, here is one:

http://www.orangeandblackpack.com/Pe...r-defense.aspx

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01-31-2014, 06:19 PM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnTHW View Post
If you'd like to read a good piece on the defense as a whole, here is one:

http://www.orangeandblackpack.com/Pe...r-defense.aspx
I've been saying that about the forwards for a while.

For a while this year, the team worked as a unit in the Dzone. They've since started going back to what was going on under Lavi...essentially leaving the Dmen to sort things out on their own while the forwards are more worried about getting up ice. It often looks like there's two separate units out there, forwards and defensemen, with little cohesion...instead of one group.

For example, several times a game all three fowards will be waiting at the blue line or in the neutral zone, covered, leaving no good pass option since there's very little chance they can get it cleanly...sometimes even while they let the puck carrier get pressured without providing a real outlet or support. That helps pin the team in the zone, perpetuating the cycle.

Hell, Streit and Grossmann had it happen against the Ducks. They had to pass back and forth as they were slowly pushed deeper into their own zone because they had no pass option that wasn't likely to spring a rush coming back the other way. Where was the forward hanging back to give them an easy outlet? Why has that guy disappeared as the season has gone on?

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01-31-2014, 09:51 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
I've been saying that about the forwards for a while.

For a while this year, the team worked as a unit in the Dzone. They've since started going back to what was going on under Lavi...essentially leaving the Dmen to sort things out on their own while the forwards are more worried about getting up ice. It often looks like there's two separate units out there, forwards and defensemen, with little cohesion...instead of one group.

For example, several times a game all three fowards will be waiting at the blue line or in the neutral zone, covered, leaving no good pass option since there's very little chance they can get it cleanly...sometimes even while they let the puck carrier get pressured without providing a real outlet or support. That helps pin the team in the zone, perpetuating the cycle.

Hell, Streit and Grossmann had it happen against the Ducks. They had to pass back and forth as they were slowly pushed deeper into their own zone because they had no pass option that wasn't likely to spring a rush coming back the other way. Where was the forward hanging back to give them an easy outlet? Why has that guy disappeared as the season has gone on?
Maybe this too simple of answer but because they are always behind the forwards are cheating and creating those big gaps between the d and wingers.

I think the Flyers should have made the trade TOR just made. They could have sent Grossmann to EDM. Make a trade for Daley or Weaver.

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02-01-2014, 01:24 AM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Dude, how am I removing his best games? I'm not. I'm just pointing out the rate of production required to get his stats to that point is incredibly unsustainable. Look at his monthly splits. He produces evenly, he doesn't really have spurts of ppg play like he just did. It's an outlier. It's not gonna continue. All I'm doing is pointing out that when he returns to normal production, he will no longer be outscoring his terrible defensive play.
Because you are only looking at the good part of his season as an outlier. The way it washes out, he is producing normally this year. The total package is normal production. The first two months of the year were just as much of an aberration. 1009 PDO, 8.0 SH%, within 0.1 PPG of his career average. As a whole, all of that is very gentle variation for a 32-game sample.


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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Because he was so awful defensively it almost outdid the good he was doing. It was a lot of flashiness for damned near nothing overall. He won us some games, yes...he also cost us some games on his own with his constant mistakes. What's the point if it's a wash? What's the point if the team's D is in a free fall, partly because of him?

Why not? Mez got tons of extra chances when Gus, a superior player, was healthy. Grossmann during his stint in Philly had been damned solid. Mez had his benefit of the doubt and he burned through it. Grossmann still has one step to go as far as I'm concerned. When/If he burns through it I'll call for his ass to become intimately acquainted with a seat in the press box.
The point is that the net result is way better than Grossmann. The point is that Meszaros has been at least average (and he's been better than average over the last two months) while Grossmann has been abysmal.

You keep qualifying Meszaros' results to say he "barely" or "almost" outscores his deficiencies. Well does Grossmann do the same? No, he's not even close. -18 at ES with a clean sweep of last place in every single advanced and traditional metric among Flyers D, so it's not about bad luck. Even when zone-start adjusted:

-LAST in CF%
-LAST in SF%
-LAST in FF%
-LAST in GF%
-LAST in GAON/60
-LAST in GFON/60
-LAST in zone exit success
-LAST in chances/60 and chance differential (tracking data through 1/9/14 -- the gap has surely widened since then)
-Bringing down differential stats for every player he's been partnered with
-Accelerated rate of disaster throughout the month of January

Grossmann is the one who has earned a trip to the press box or a trade out of town. It's already happened. How quickly fans/management come to realize that is another story.


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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Why not? You would have a PMD on every line, spreading that talent through the lineup. It's worth a shot, before bringing a known defensive disaster back into the mix.
Heaven forbid we have two who are capable of handling the puck on the same pairing, heaven forbid we abandon this traditional set-up that is getting us so far. Timonen - Coburn is our best pairing at moving the puck forward, and it's no coincidence that they both have some capability with the puck on their stick. What Coburn lacks in passing and stick-handling, he makes up with his fluid skating and ability to carry the puck forward. Even on the Gus - Schenn pairing, Schenn is capable of a viable outlet pass. Grossmann, on the other hand, is in league-worst territory for over a year. He's a ticking timebomb with a grenade on his stick.
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"We had a player that was supposed to be a great, shut-down defenseman. He was supposedly the be-all, end-all of defensemen. But when you did a 10-game analysis of him, you found out he was defending all the time because he can't move the puck.

"Then we had another guy, who supposedly couldn't defend a lick. Well, he was defending only 20 percent of the time because he's making good plays out of our end. He may not be the strongest defender, but he's only doing it 20 percent of the time. So the equation works out better the other way. I ended up trading the other defenseman."
-Dave Tippett

You're always praising the Phoenix defensive system in goaltending conversations. Well what defensemen make it work? Yandle, OEL, Morris... Zubov, Boucher and Robidas in Dallas when they won 100 games from 2005-2007. Guys who spend less time defending because they can move the puck (ranging from exceptional to capable, in that regard).

Grossmann is the paramount defensive disaster on this year's corps, because he's always defending. The answer to this is to make Gus - Schenn take on 2nd pairing responsibilities just to accommodate an offensively inept, supposed SDD with sheltered defensive minutes? That is such a superficial alteration and it doesn't address real issues.

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Old
02-01-2014, 01:58 AM
  #80
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Dude, I'm done. I got halfway through a response before realizing this is a circle.

You have your belief. I have mine. Neither is changing our minds. I think Mez is garbage. If he gets put in over Grossmann and doesn't produce at that .8ppg pace or whatever it was, you'll quickly turn on him too. I'm not falling for the month long hotstreak.

I get what you're saying with the Tippett/PMD stuff. But I don't think Mez is the answer there.

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02-01-2014, 02:23 AM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Dude, I'm done. I got halfway through a response before realizing this is a circle.

You have your belief. I have mine. Neither is changing our minds. I think Mez is garbage. If he gets put in over Grossmann and doesn't produce at that .8ppg pace or whatever it was, you'll quickly turn on him too. I'm not falling for the month long hotstreak.

I get what you're saying with the Tippett/PMD stuff. But I don't think Mez is the answer there.
I'd honestly rather have an AHL callup right now than either of them. I don't trust either of them at all. Give Timonen, Coburn, Schenn, and Gus the bulk of the defensive responsibility and give Streit and the callup sheltered minutes as the 3rd pairing. I'm not under any false impressions about the abilities of the Dmen we have in ADK, but I'd rather take the risk and see what they can do then stick with something that's already broken. Bourdon, Manning, or Alt would be nice to see, even if it's for a short time.

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02-01-2014, 02:54 AM
  #82
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5 on 5 points per 60 minutes amongst defensemen, entire NHL (300 min played):

Andrej Meszaros

2013-2014 = 2nd (in between Victor Hedman and Duncan Keith)
2012-2013 = injured
2011-2012 = 3rd (behind Erik Karlsson and Kris Letang)
2010-2011 = 21st (.01 behind Shea Weber)

Nick Grossmann

2013-2014 = 185th (out of 206)
2012-2013 = 189th (out of 204)
2011-2012 = 132nd (out of 229)
2010-2011 (Dallas) = 97th (out of 224)


On ice goals against per 20 minutes, same criteria:

Meszaros

2013-2014 = 151st
2012-2013 = injured
2011-2012 = 163rd
2010-2011 = 38th

Grossmann

2013-2014 = 179th
2012-2013 = 104th
2011-2012 = 122nd
2010-2011 (Dallas) = 54th

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Old
02-01-2014, 03:26 AM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Striiker View Post
I'd honestly rather have an AHL callup right now than either of them. I don't trust either of them at all. Give Timonen, Coburn, Schenn, and Gus the bulk of the defensive responsibility and give Streit and the callup sheltered minutes as the 3rd pairing. I'm not under any false impressions about the abilities of the Dmen we have in ADK, but I'd rather take the risk and see what they can do then stick with something that's already broken. Bourdon, Manning, or Alt would be nice to see, even if it's for a short time.
I'm just about there. If Grossmann hits the 3rd pairing and still sucks, **** it. See what the AHLers have. He should be on a short leash, too. 5 games. By Berube standards though (he can be patient to a fault, haha), that might mean 10 though.

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02-01-2014, 12:22 PM
  #84
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Who is the Flyers worst defenseman?

The one who has the puck.

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02-01-2014, 12:42 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
I'm just about there. If Grossmann hits the 3rd pairing and still sucks, **** it. See what the AHLers have. He should be on a short leash, too. 5 games. By Berube standards though (he can be patient to a fault, haha), that might mean 10 though.
Speaking of, has anybody been able to watch Alt this year? How has he looked? I'd like to see him get a shot on that bottom pairing if anybody is injured or something at some point.

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02-01-2014, 07:09 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
Well of of course having a #1 would make things look better but there's none available so the next best course of action would looking for better defensemen who can bring different skill sets than just having all of the same thing.

My point being it's not the end of the world to not have a #1 like most here think. You can still have a good defense without one assuming you adjust your personnel better. Pittsburgh has one of the better defensive core's in the league this year despite not having a #1 (I don't count Letang as one because he's not effective enough on defense & doesn't log 25+ minutes a night).
I think the Flyers should try to go the route of the 2006 Hurricanes who had no real #1 but a lot of #3s and #4s. They didn't really have a weak d-pairing, they were all interchangeable. I would try to go this route since a #1 can not be had.

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02-01-2014, 07:17 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Totally Radivojevic View Post
5 on 5 points per 60 minutes amongst defensemen, entire NHL (300 min played):

Andrej Meszaros

2013-2014 = 2nd (in between Victor Hedman and Duncan Keith)
2012-2013 = injured
2011-2012 = 3rd (behind Erik Karlsson and Kris Letang)
2010-2011 = 21st (.01 behind Shea Weber)

Nick Grossmann

2013-2014 = 185th (out of 206)
2012-2013 = 189th (out of 204)
2011-2012 = 132nd (out of 229)
2010-2011 (Dallas) = 97th (out of 224)


On ice goals against per 20 minutes, same criteria:

Meszaros

2013-2014 = 151st
2012-2013 = injured
2011-2012 = 163rd
2010-2011 = 38th

Grossmann

2013-2014 = 179th
2012-2013 = 104th
2011-2012 = 122nd
2010-2011 (Dallas) = 54th
Unless you can correct/normalize for qaulity of competition, "linemates" and zone starts, those stats are difficult to glean much from just by direct comparison.

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02-01-2014, 07:18 PM
  #88
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If we could replace the Streit-Grossmann pairing with two players who can skate well and not lose the puck every time it touches their sticks it would make this team so much better. They are the weakest links on the defense.

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02-01-2014, 07:31 PM
  #89
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Streit is much better at handling and passing the puck.

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02-01-2014, 09:34 PM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
Unless you can correct/normalize for qaulity of competition, "linemates" and zone starts, those stats are difficult to glean much from just by direct comparison.
Don't overestimate the effect of zone starts. If you look earlier in the thread, all of Grossmann's ZS-adjusted differentials are last on the d-corps too. Grossmann isn't facing extreme QoC either and it's offset by quality of teammates. He's not an example of extreme deployment effects like Hall or Couturier.

http://hockeyanalysis.com/2013/04/05...y-fancy-stats/

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02-02-2014, 09:05 AM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Appleyard View Post
He is a #5 being asked to play the role - effectively, of a #3.

He is what he is and everyone knows that... a big, defensively sound, shot blocking, good PKing D man with limited puck skills.


Yep Good hockey player!

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02-02-2014, 02:12 PM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Damaged Goods View Post
Don't overestimate the effect of zone starts. If you look earlier in the thread, all of Grossmann's ZS-adjusted differentials are last on the d-corps too. Grossmann isn't facing extreme QoC either and it's offset by quality of teammates. He's not an example of extreme deployment effects like Hall or Couturier.

http://hockeyanalysis.com/2013/04/05...y-fancy-stats/
Information is information. So long as it's not wrong, it's useful. My point was simply that the information he gave should definitely be intepretted cautiously, given the differences in how those two players are used. That point stands. My point was not that Grossmann's stats are what they are because he is an outlier in terms of usage, but that the huge difference between his and Meszaros's numbers are due in part to differences in their usage.

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02-02-2014, 02:24 PM
  #93
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Ummm Schenn by far... What have you been smoking?

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02-02-2014, 02:41 PM
  #94
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Ummm Schenn by far... What have you been smoking?
I take it you haven't read through the thread then?

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03-08-2014, 09:58 PM
  #95
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Bump.

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03-08-2014, 10:00 PM
  #96
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lulz.

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03-08-2014, 10:00 PM
  #97
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It is unbelievable how much worse he's become since we acquired him. Like it's shocking. It can't just be age, can it?

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03-08-2014, 10:10 PM
  #98
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Grossmann horrible

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03-08-2014, 10:13 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by jeff leonard View Post
It is unbelievable how much worse he's become since we acquired him. Like it's shocking. It can't just be age, can it?
Earlier in the season the offense was not performing so they were playing a much more "lock it down" style. Grossmann fit that style so his positive traits (shot blocking, physical play) were effective.

Now that the forwards have confidence the team is playing a much more up tempo style and Grossmann cant keep up. He serves a purpose but I think MacDonald and Schenn can make up for it. Gus should be in there.

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03-08-2014, 10:15 PM
  #100
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I blame Malkin's drive by elbow.

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