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Old
03-08-2014, 02:04 PM
  #126
glenngineer
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Originally Posted by 101st_fan View Post
Glenn,
The player you describe is that about one per draft class (on average) forward. That is a major issue our fanbase has ... expectation management. We all hope for the great find in a draft or a championship, but, the reality is that those things are few and far between ... especially if you're not drafting consistently in the top three (see Pittsburgh and Chicago in the early 2000s). We haven't won a championship in fifteen whole years of existence .... the entire country of Canada hasn't won a Cup in 20 with multiple teams vying for it.
So you're saying in 15 years there's only been 15 great forwards who have been drafted and developed? Really?

I just went to a random draft not 2003 but let's look at 2006.

Picks 2-5 were Jordan Staal, Toews, Backstrom and Kessel. 3 of them are pretty darn good players. Okposo at 7 is turning in to a pretty darn good player. The pick at 22 turns out to be this guy named Giroux. Pick 50 was Lucic. There were some other NHL players from that draft but for the most part, these are the guys.

Let's go to 2007 for fun. Kane, JVR and Turris top 3. I'd say Kane and JVR have turned out pretty well. Let's keep going. Voracek at 7, Couture at 9, Eller at 13, Pacioretty at 22, Simmonds at 61 is a stretch but still a pretty good player. Benn at 129.

I'm going to stop here but from a small sample size, 2 years, how many of those guys are game breakers. Toews, Backstrom, Kessel, Giroux, Kane, Couture and Benn. That's 7 guys in two drafts so reading your statement and doing some research, the two don't quite match up. Yes, great players are hard to come by but they can be had. Very good players can be had without top 10 picks as well.

Regardless of your comments or mine, fact is we have not drafted a guy in that class or developed a guy in that class of player in 15 years. There is no way you can prove this to me because it hasn't happened. When a guy like Benn is taken at 129, it shows it can happen. Datsyuk and Zetterberg were mid round picks as well. It is a crap shoot but when you keep rolling 7's something isn't quite right. There are some no brainers on that list but there are guys that got drafted later and then developed and we have been unable to do it and the talent pool says it's larger than what you're making it out to be.

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03-08-2014, 04:22 PM
  #127
101st_fan
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Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
So you're saying in 15 years there's only been 15 great forwards who have been drafted and developed? Really?

I just went to a random draft not 2003 but let's look at 2006.

Picks 2-5 were Jordan Staal, Toews, Backstrom and Kessel. 3 of them are pretty darn good players. Okposo at 7 is turning in to a pretty darn good player. The pick at 22 turns out to be this guy named Giroux. Pick 50 was Lucic. There were some other NHL players from that draft but for the most part, these are the guys.

Let's go to 2007 for fun. Kane, JVR and Turris top 3. I'd say Kane and JVR have turned out pretty well. Let's keep going. Voracek at 7, Couture at 9, Eller at 13, Pacioretty at 22, Simmonds at 61 is a stretch but still a pretty good player. Benn at 129.

I'm going to stop here but from a small sample size, 2 years, how many of those guys are game breakers. Toews, Backstrom, Kessel, Giroux, Kane, Couture and Benn. That's 7 guys in two drafts so reading your statement and doing some research, the two don't quite match up. Yes, great players are hard to come by but they can be had. Very good players can be had without top 10 picks as well.

Regardless of your comments or mine, fact is we have not drafted a guy in that class or developed a guy in that class of player in 15 years. There is no way you can prove this to me because it hasn't happened. When a guy like Benn is taken at 129, it shows it can happen. Datsyuk and Zetterberg were mid round picks as well. It is a crap shoot but when you keep rolling 7's something isn't quite right. There are some no brainers on that list but there are guys that got drafted later and then developed and we have been unable to do it and the talent pool says it's larger than what you're making it out to be.


Nice change from setting the bar at can "take over a game" down to "pretty darn good players" ... which takes it from the generational talent, 40 goal scoring types these boards routinely clamor for as though they grow on trees and then changes it to guys like Hartnell, Radulov, and at times Erat, Sullivan, and Dumont as Predators. You've managed to claim we need greatness, then support it with just "pretty darn good players". Way to redefine terms.

Since when is rolling a seven in craps a bad thing?

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Old
03-08-2014, 05:12 PM
  #128
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I'm highly capable of it. Just not worth the time to type a ****ing book of a response just to prove my point. Especially to someone that ALWAYS has to have the last word and is NEVER in the wrong.. And to someone whom I've debated with in the past, and it's always the same result. There is no point for me. None. So just stop, you're always putting posters here down and telling them their opinions are wrong. And I'm not the first one to say it to you.

These boards used to be more active and a generally better place to come and discuss hockey. Now it's a cringe show.

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03-08-2014, 05:23 PM
  #129
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I'm highly capable of it. Just not worth the time to type a ****ing book of a response just to prove my point. Especially to someone that ALWAYS has to have the last word and is NEVER in the wrong.. And to someone whom I've debated with in the past, and it's always the same result. There is no point for me. None. So just stop, you're always putting posters here down and telling them their opinions are wrong. And I'm not the first one to say it to you.

These boards used to be more active and a generally better place to come and discuss hockey. Now it's a cringe show.
IWS, I agree with your last point, and it's a shame. I come here with the intent of just sticking my nose in and trying to get some good hockey talk in, not to try to win any arguments, though I'm sure I get in my fair share. Fact is, though, there's an incredible amount of vitriol thrown from both the reactionary and progressive elements around this place, and it creates a pretty uncomfortable atmosphere. Now a lot of that would be eliminated with just some good old fashioned winning, but until that trend flies around again, it would help if there was a little more grace and respect shown toward all viewpoints. Just IMO though, and I'm just someone who enjoys watching the game, loves the Preds, and knows that I don't know everything...occasionally.

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03-08-2014, 10:12 PM
  #130
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For years a select few on here mentioned that a change was perhaps needed at the GM and/or head coach position. Those posters were repeatedly told that making such a change was risky and would turn us into Florida, Columbus, Edmonton, etc. When mentioned that the team needed to trade or sign a more dynamic forward, again, same thing was mentioned. We don't need to do that so we don't turn into a bottom feeder.

Guess what, we are right there in that direction. We're hanging out in the cellar for the second year in a row. Something isn't working. The GM's trades, drafts and signings and or the coaching of those players. Something has to give. Saying that we're fine in that department is laughable, unless your expectations are to be a bottom team.

And yes there is a little bit of irony in that many said we wouldn't want to become Columbus and their future is looking much brighter now.

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03-08-2014, 10:21 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by Stranger View Post
For years a select few on here mentioned that a change was perhaps needed at the GM and/or head coach position. Those posters were repeatedly told that making such a change was risky and would turn us into Florida, Columbus, Edmonton, etc. When mentioned that the team needed to trade or sign a more dynamic forward, again, same thing was mentioned. We don't need to do that so we don't turn into a bottom feeder.
R
Guess what, we are right there in that direction. We're hanging out in the cellar for the second year in a row. Something isn't working. The GM's trades, drafts and signings and or the coaching of those players. Something has to give. Saying that we're fine in that department is laughable, unless your expectations are to be a bottom team.

And yes there is a little bit of irony in that many said we wouldn't want to become Columbus and their future is looking much brighter now.
Yeah, it only took them 3 GMs and what, 4 or 5 coaches to get to where they are now, which for thos of you keeping score at home, is currently 9th in their conference... albeit with hope of making the playoffs.... for the second time in their history...

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03-08-2014, 11:05 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
So you're saying in 15 years there's only been 15 great forwards who have been drafted and developed? Really?

I just went to a random draft not 2003 but let's look at 2006.

Picks 2-5 were Jordan Staal, Toews, Backstrom and Kessel. 3 of them are pretty darn good players. Okposo at 7 is turning in to a pretty darn good player. The pick at 22 turns out to be this guy named Giroux. Pick 50 was Lucic. There were some other NHL players from that draft but for the most part, these are the guys.

Let's go to 2007 for fun. Kane, JVR and Turris top 3. I'd say Kane and JVR have turned out pretty well. Let's keep going. Voracek at 7, Couture at 9, Eller at 13, Pacioretty at 22, Simmonds at 61 is a stretch but still a pretty good player. Benn at 129.

I'm going to stop here but from a small sample size, 2 years, how many of those guys are game breakers. Toews, Backstrom, Kessel, Giroux, Kane, Couture and Benn. That's 7 guys in two drafts so reading your statement and doing some research, the two don't quite match up. Yes, great players are hard to come by but they can be had. Very good players can be had without top 10 picks as well.

Regardless of your comments or mine, fact is we have not drafted a guy in that class or developed a guy in that class of player in 15 years. There is no way you can prove this to me because it hasn't happened. When a guy like Benn is taken at 129, it shows it can happen. Datsyuk and Zetterberg were mid round picks as well. It is a crap shoot but when you keep rolling 7's something isn't quite right. There are some no brainers on that list but there are guys that got drafted later and then developed and we have been unable to do it and the talent pool says it's larger than what you're making it out to be.
So long as you're including guys like Staal, Okposo, and (especially) Eller, Erat fits all of those categories and then some.

Hell, Hornqvist almost qualifies if you think Eller is a "top quality forward".

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03-08-2014, 11:11 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by Stranger View Post
For years a select few on here mentioned that a change was perhaps needed at the GM and/or head coach position. Those posters were repeatedly told that making such a change was risky and would turn us into Florida, Columbus, Edmonton, etc. When mentioned that the team needed to trade or sign a more dynamic forward, again, same thing was mentioned. We don't need to do that so we don't turn into a bottom feeder.

Guess what, we are right there in that direction. We're hanging out in the cellar for the second year in a row. Something isn't working. The GM's trades, drafts and signings and or the coaching of those players. Something has to give. Saying that we're fine in that department is laughable, unless your expectations are to be a bottom team.

And yes there is a little bit of irony in that many said we wouldn't want to become Columbus and their future is looking much brighter now.
If you honestly think back-to-back down years means you're right down there with what we went through up here...

Frankly, I think right now the Preds can be expected to be rough for a little while longer, but there's at least some future hope in all the right places. The kids on the blueline are right on schedule, and most of a decent forward corps is maturing in Milwaukee. And depending on how the draft goes, that could get even more of a boost.

Yeah, the team's in bad shape at the moment, and yes, a large part of it is due to a massive miscalculation by Poile this past offseason. But pretending you're anywhere near that level of perpetual misery is as outlandish and absurd as Jackets fans claiming we're Cup contenders.

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03-08-2014, 11:30 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
If you honestly think back-to-back down years means you're right down there with what we went through up here...

Frankly, I think right now the Preds can be expected to be rough for a little while longer, but there's at least some future hope in all the right places. The kids on the blueline are right on schedule, and most of a decent forward corps is maturing in Milwaukee. And depending on how the draft goes, that could get even more of a boost.

Yeah, the team's in bad shape at the moment, and yes, a large part of it is due to a massive miscalculation by Poile this past offseason. But pretending you're anywhere near that level of perpetual misery is as outlandish and absurd as Jackets fans claiming we're Cup contenders.
Im not sure if it was miscalculation by DP. I think he has been in on a number of situations attempting to bring talent here thru F/A. Unless a team drafts in top five on a pretty regular basis there just not going to stockpile a competitive team. The few players that are special and able to jump right in the league in any given draft is pretty small. SHort a a few year period with Karyia Sullivan Dumont and Arnott here players have been put into situations they are not ready for. So first the GM and front office have to select the right player then they must be developed properly. This has been the double whammy for the Preds.

The team is in a hole right now and given time they will rebound. The D is set and we have a world class goalie. If your someone is not willing to wait a couple more years to rebuild your gonna have to watch another team for a while. This is not a top destination for players wish lists no matter the amount of money that can be thrown at them. In time it could be but were not at that point now.

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Old
03-09-2014, 06:34 AM
  #135
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So long as you're including guys like Staal, Okposo, and (especially) Eller, Erat fits all of those categories and then some.

Hell, Hornqvist almost qualifies if you think Eller is a "top quality forward".
Go back and read my post. I listed some game breakers and some really good forwards on that list. If you notice I said, how many are game breakers, there were 7. That's what 101 was referencing but I also was saying there were some other good forwards drafted in addition to the game breakers. 101 said there is one game breaker usually per draft and in two separate draft years I found about 7 at various points of the draft.

The other guys listed are good top 6 guys. I never said we didn't draft good forwards, we have but we have never drafted and developed a game breaking guy that can take over a game on his own in 15 years. If you can find one that would be great but we never have. Erat for all his shortcomings was a solid top 6 guy but never a guy to take over a game on his own. Same can be said about Hornqvist. That's what the reference in my post was about and no one can sit here and tell me that we've drafted "the man" ever in our history and after 15 years of trying it's time to get others in who can find that little gem or two and then give that player to a coach and his staff that can develop him.

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03-09-2014, 10:06 AM
  #136
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If you honestly think back-to-back down years means you're right down there with what we went through up here...
You may want to read what I said again. I didn't say we were there yet

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03-09-2014, 10:23 AM
  #137
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Go back and read my post. I listed some game breakers and some really good forwards on that list. If you notice I said, how many are game breakers, there were 7. That's what 101 was referencing but I also was saying there were some other good forwards drafted in addition to the game breakers. 101 said there is one game breaker usually per draft and in two separate draft years I found about 7 at various points of the draft.
Okay. Now let's see how many the Preds were in a position to actually get.

2006:
Toews, Backstrom, Kessel: All picked long before Nashville would have picked.
Giroux: Picked just before the Preds could have picked. (The Nashville 1st had been traded to Washington at the deadline.)

2007:
Kane, Couture: Picked long before Nashville ever could have.
Benn: Picked 10 picks after the closest Preds pick... and was the second of three picks by Dallas in that round.

I'd say all seven realistically qualify as "unreachable".

Oh, and while we're at it... of those seven, how many of them have been on teams competitive enough to win a Cup? I count three, and it's that high only because two of them are on the same team.

Trust me, hon. You don't want to play this shoulda-coulda-woulda-drafted game with me. I've had LOTS of practice; it's one of those ancillary benefits of cheering for a team that's sucked for more than just two years.

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03-09-2014, 10:43 AM
  #138
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Originally Posted by 101st_fan View Post

Since when is rolling a seven in craps a bad thing?

Actually depending on what side of the table you are playing ( meaning betting with or against house), other than the initial roll out ( betting against the house), a 7 is the worst thing to roll in the game of craps. Once a number other than 7 or 11 is rolled and the number is set, you don't want to see a 7, in fact you want to see the number that was set. Then you are back to wanting to see 7's again.

If you are betting with the house, you don't want to see 7's on the roll out ( you want to see 2's and 3's). Once the numbers are set you want to see a 7 before the set number is rolled.

So seeing 7's can both be good and bad depending on what the previous roll of the dice is. If everyone sets a number and then rolls a 7 immediately after, well generally lots of people are losing money. Unless you are me of course and bet against everyone else on the table and with the house. ( When I play I actually stand right next to one of the pay out guys so not to be noticed, if the rest of the table sees you betting against them they will see it as bad luck and leave. I've cleared several tables like this before)

Anyways back on topic. If the problem isn't the GM or the coach, then what is the problem? I mean the players we have are here because of the GM. The players may not be performing because of the coach ( but thats not as cut and dry). So we have a team full of forwards that can't put the puck in the net, and this isn't exactly a new development. So obviously something somewhere has to change, because this group of forwards I just don't see getting better at it as a group any time soon.

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03-09-2014, 10:53 AM
  #139
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Anyways back on topic. If the problem isn't the GM or the coach, then what is the problem?
The problem is more nuanced than "this guy sucks, fire him and get someone else."

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03-09-2014, 10:59 AM
  #140
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The problem is more nuanced than "this guy sucks, fire him and get someone else."
What is it then

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03-09-2014, 11:11 AM
  #141
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The problem is more nuanced than "this guy sucks, fire him and get someone else."
Thats what I'm asking though. If the problem isn't the GM or the Coach as people keep defending then whats the issue? I mean yeah at a certain point the players you hire need to do what they are paid to do, but if they aren't or can't then why did you pay them to do it to begin with? If you brought these kids up in your system and they can't do it, does the Coach play a part in that or is it all the kids fault?

I mean seriously, we keep going back and forth but yet no one seems to know exactly what the issue is or how to fix it other than either trading for untradeable players, or by getting free agents we have hardly had a chance to get over the years.

So we sit and wait on what exactly? I mean yeah we have a couple of forwards that look like they might make it eventually, but thats not exactly filling a roster any time soon.

I mean right now it appears the fix is to wait another 3-5 years, hope the goalie and blue line are still around then by the time we get a team of decent forwards in place I guess? What do we do in the mean time? Tell the team to make sure they suck so we can get a top draft pick in the mean time? How do you keep fans interested in that and buying tickets?

I know the answer isn't easy, but damn. I don't blame anyone for wanting the GM and coach gone, then again I don't blame anyone for saying that we were right there and missed it a couple of years ago and we need to wait. Waiting

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03-09-2014, 11:33 AM
  #142
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Thats what I'm asking though. If the problem isn't the GM or the Coach as people keep defending then whats the issue? I mean yeah at a certain point the players you hire need to do what they are paid to do, but if they aren't or can't then why did you pay them to do it to begin with? If you brought these kids up in your system and they can't do it, does the Coach play a part in that or is it all the kids fault?

I mean seriously, we keep going back and forth but yet no one seems to know exactly what the issue is or how to fix it other than either trading for untradeable players, or by getting free agents we have hardly had a chance to get over the years.

So we sit and wait on what exactly? I mean yeah we have a couple of forwards that look like they might make it eventually, but thats not exactly filling a roster any time soon.

I mean right now it appears the fix is to wait another 3-5 years, hope the goalie and blue line are still around then by the time we get a team of decent forwards in place I guess? What do we do in the mean time? Tell the team to make sure they suck so we can get a top draft pick in the mean time? How do you keep fans interested in that and buying tickets?

I know the answer isn't easy, but damn. I don't blame anyone for wanting the GM and coach gone, then again I don't blame anyone for saying that we were right there and missed it a couple of years ago and we need to wait. Waiting
I will again point out that we are not anywhere near the situations that Calgary is in now or that Columbus and Colorado were in, and Edmonton seems to have been in forever.

The truth nobody wants to see is that this is not that bad of a team. We have had a really bad week, and having no Legwand is going to make the final 20 games worse and so our final position in the standings will seem a lot worse than the team actually is.

but we played .500 hockey without Rinne for 4 months. We were within 4 points of a playoff spot 2/3 of the way through the season, again with no Rinne for all of that time.

Last year, which everyone remembers as awful, was much the same... we were actually right there for a playoff spot until about a week before the trade deadline, and then injuries took their toll on the last three weeks of the season and we ended up 14th in the west.

This team is primed to be a contender, and soon. We are completely set on defense and in goal for at least the next 4-5 years. Not just good but world class defense and goaltending. There isnt another 'rebuilding" team that is anywhere near that well stocked on the back end. So we need some forwards who can score, and thats pretty much all we need. In the next two years you would think at least two or three players from within the organization will blossom into full time NHL forwards, and if we can pick up one or two more by trade, draft or free agency, we will be in good shape.

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03-09-2014, 11:47 AM
  #143
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I will again point out that we are not anywhere near the situations that Calgary is in now or that Columbus and Colorado were in, and Edmonton seems to have been in forever.

The truth nobody wants to see is that this is not that bad of a team. We have had a really bad week, and having no Legwand is going to make the final 20 games worse and so our final position in the standings will seem a lot worse than the team actually is.

but we played .500 hockey without Rinne for 4 months. We were within 4 points of a playoff spot 2/3 of the way through the season, again with no Rinne for all of that time.

Last year, which everyone remembers as awful, was much the same... we were actually right there for a playoff spot until about a week before the trade deadline, and then injuries took their toll on the last three weeks of the season and we ended up 14th in the west.

This team is primed to be a contender, and soon. We are completely set on defense and in goal for at least the next 4-5 years. Not just good but world class defense and goaltending. There isnt another 'rebuilding" team that is anywhere near that well stocked on the back end. So we need some forwards who can score, and thats pretty much all we need. In the next two years you would think at least two or three players from within the organization will blossom into full time NHL forwards, and if we can pick up one or two more by trade, draft or free agency, we will be in good shape.

So we sit around and hope something happens that hasn't really happened before ( forwards develop). So we wait some more

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03-09-2014, 11:48 AM
  #144
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I am wondering if our scouting needs to be revamped. Particularly the ones scouting in Canada. They have not found a decent forward up there in a long time. If we are going to contend, as much as it pains me to say this, we need more Canadian forwards. We don't have a game breaker for sure and we need top 3 talent. Most of the best are found north of the border.

Voldy, maybe if we were in East it wouldn't be, but in the West we are bad. And I don't see us getting any better any time soon.

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03-09-2014, 12:07 PM
  #145
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Thats what I'm asking though. If the problem isn't the GM or the Coach as people keep defending then whats the issue?
See, here's the issue. If I say "Poile signed too many third-liners this offseason", the instant conclusion is going to be "Poile ****ed up; fire Poile". But that's not a fair conclusion.

If I say "Wilson hasn't developed as expected under Trotz", the instant conclusion is going to be "Trotz ****ed up; fire Trotz". But that, also, is not a fair conclusion.

Folks are busy looking for someone to blame so they can Fire The Bad Guy and Make It All Better. That is not the right approach.

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Originally Posted by Armourboy View Post
So we sit around and hope something happens that hasn't really happened before ( forwards develop). So we wait some more
If we automatically discount anything that's previously not happened, then the Preds will never, ever win the Stanley Cup.

(Incidentally, Poile has drafted at least one star forward before - on quick review, I noticed he was GM of the Caps when they drafted Bondra.)

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Originally Posted by hockey diva View Post
I am wondering if our scouting needs to be revamped. Particularly the ones scouting in Canada. They have not found a decent forward up there in a long time. If we are going to contend, as much as it pains me to say this, we need more Canadian forwards. We don't have a game breaker for sure and we need top 3 talent. Most of the best are found north of the border.
Maybe. I don't know much about the Preds scouting staff and so couldn't comment rationally.

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03-09-2014, 12:27 PM
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So we sit around and hope something happens that hasn't really happened before ( forwards develop). So we wait some more
we wont just sit and wait for forwards to develop. We have literally no other needs as a team.

the forwards we thought would help that were acquired this past summer didnt help. So I have no doubt we will acquire more this summer, either via trade or free agency, in addition to the ones coming up through the pipeline.

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Originally Posted by hockey diva View Post
I am wondering if our scouting needs to be revamped. Particularly the ones scouting in Canada. They have not found a decent forward up there in a long time. If we are going to contend, as much as it pains me to say this, we need more Canadian forwards. We don't have a game breaker for sure and we need top 3 talent. Most of the best are found north of the border.

Voldy, maybe if we were in East it wouldn't be, but in the West we are bad. And I don't see us getting any better any time soon.
no, we are NOT bad, like Edmonton or Calgary bad. No way no how. You are pissed and disappointed and it seems bad in comparison to what our standard has been the last ten years...I get that... but any objective observer would agree that we are 2/3 of the way to being a solid, competitive team, and that we really have the harder part of what good teams need already in place. Edomnton has been trying to build a defense and goaltending for at least 5 years. How many years did Columbus struggle in the wilderness looking for defense and goaltending? What wrong with Florida and the Islanders? Defense and goaltending. Tampa? defense and goaltending...

rebuilding teams would KILL to be in the position we are in right now...

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03-09-2014, 12:35 PM
  #147
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Of the teams in the top 8 in the West, who are we going to get better than in next two years? Do you think the fans in Winnipeg will tolerate missing the playoffs much longer? Tampa, Florida, Islanders and now Columbus are in the East. So not really comparable.

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03-09-2014, 12:52 PM
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Of the teams in the top 8 in the West, who are we going to get better than in next two years? Do you think the fans in Winnipeg will tolerate missing the playoffs much longer? Tampa, Florida, Islanders and now Columbus are in the East. So not really comparable.
There is plenty of reason to belive that within a couple of years we can be as good or better than everyone except Chicago. A healthy Pekka Rinne and two more forwards who can score at even strength and we probably have 12-15 more points this year than we do right now. Our defense is only going to get better.

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03-09-2014, 01:02 PM
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Sure, we can make the playoffs again, but actually getting further than that, I don't see. I think the hill we have to climb is a lot steeper than you think. Of course, if you are happy with just making playoffs...

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03-09-2014, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by PredsV82 View Post
The truth nobody wants to see is that this is not that bad of a team. We have had a really bad week, and having no Legwand is going to make the final 20 games worse and so our final position in the standings will seem a lot worse than the team actually is.
We started the week as the 6th worst team in the league. After this week we're still the 6th worst team in the league and the 6th worst team in a 30 team league is a bad team.

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