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Old
02-17-2007, 09:36 PM
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
In that case Rangers have better prospects then Pittsburgh too, because after Malkin, Crosby, Staal, Ouellet, Christensen, Fluery etc etc made to NHL they have nothing or almost nothing left.
Ouellet and Christensen weren't anything to begin with

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Old
02-17-2007, 11:44 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by dedalus View Post
Yes and that really is rqather the point of both drafting and a farm system, is it not? In five years nobody will care who had the better set of prospects in 2007. We'll care about whcih team is closer to winning a championship.


Only if you consider a fan site to be a stupendously accurate vehicle for evaluating talent.
Yes, that is, but what does having all of that good, young talent do for you if it is overhyped, and underproductive. Richards was overhyped to begin with. Great player, I'd love to have him, but his offensive abilities were jacked up to be more than what they really are. Carter was the guy that I thought was going to be the stud out of those two, and he hasn't been overly impressive, even last year.

As for their rankings... like I said, take it for what it's worth, but they get the gist of their rankings generally from places like McKeen's, which is one of the top scouting services out there. I wouldn't say it's terribly unaccurate. I mean down in the system, how many forwards with top-6 potential do they have? Giroux, Ruzicka are sure-fire locks if you ask me. Nodl has an outside shot. Downie is an Avery clone. If you still want to consider Potulny a prospect, he has a decent chance. I won't act like McKeen's is god either, but they're far more trusted than a fan site, wouldn't you agree? They're a professional operation...


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Originally Posted by True Blue View Post
Come on, here. The Flyer crappy farm system turned out Gagne, Carter & Richards, all sure-fire top-6, if not top-3 type of forwards. Whom are you going to tout from the Rangers farm system that even compares? I only wish that the Rangers farm sucked this much.

That is not even mentioning Umberger, whom Sather had no use for.
What I'm talking about is the way the farm systems look now. Garret said that this trade would help Philly leapfrog the Isles and Devils, in terms of prospect depth within the division, which I really do not believe that to be the case. One defensive prospect doesn't make up a system. When I say prospects, that doesn't include young guys already on the team. And honestly, I'm not sure if Richards will be a top-6 forward, he reminds me way too much of Mike Ricci, but scrappier. Gagne was a farmhand about 8 years ago. That has nothing to do with the issue I'm discussing, which is the current state of the prospect depth of each organization within the division. Like Dedalus said, that won't matter if our prospects don't come to fruition, which is true. It's who comes closer to winning a cup. But the issue I was debating was the state of each organization's current prospect depth. Philly's is piss-poor, even after this trade, if you ask me. With the lack of depth they have at every position, they would need at least one or two home-run prospects to make up for it. I mean, they have NO GOALTENDERS who show signs of being effective in the NHL one day. Their only defender with top-4 potential is Ryan Parent. I've seen him at the last two WJC's, and if you ask me, he has the potential to be a solid shutdown, stay-at-home #3.

As for Umberger, he's nothing special. He had attitude problems, and wanted a big entry-level deal, which Sather balked at, and rightfully so. He held out in Vancouver for the same deal, and that's why he was dangled, and eventually traded for Rucinsky in 04. Who cares about him? Could we use him? Yeah, but there's two centers we have in this system who have the potential to be leaps and bounds better. Dubinsky, who plays a very similar game, and is far more talented, if you ask me, and Anisimov, who has the potential to be a 1st liner. That's why he was a high pick in the 2nd round, and was originally projected to go midway through the 1st. I wouldn't get too down over that. If anything, I'd be down about Sather passing up Travis Zajac and Wojtek Wolski to draft another project player in Lauri Korpikoski. You don't draft players like that when you don't have the depth to do so. You draft the best player available, and Wolski was a guy who shouldn't have left the top-10 that year. Zajac was a guy who could have went higher if he was playing in the CHL instead of in the BCHL at the time. Korpikoski's stocked soared after the 04 U-18 WJC, where he played on a line with Lauri Tukonen and Petteri Nokelainen, and they all tied for the tournament lead in points with 11. The safest bet would have been Wolski, who scored 29 goals and 70 points in 66 games, while surrounded with almost no talent on a losing Brampton team.

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Old
02-18-2007, 12:01 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by GretzNYR99 View Post
And you know more?
My mistake. I misread. I thought you were talking about all their young players as opposed to JUST prospects. But my main point was that Flyer fan has no idea what he's talking about (Tyutin).

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02-18-2007, 12:41 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Storm in a Teacup View Post
There's nothing chronic about it. If Morganti used that word, he's a ****ing moron.
Actually, a bulging disc can be QUITE chronic. Sometimes it's never cured completely.

Ask my father. He's had a boatload.

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Old
02-18-2007, 01:18 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by GretzNYR99 View Post
Yes, that is, but what does having all of that good, young talent do for you if it is overhyped, and underproductive. Richards was overhyped to begin with. Great player, I'd love to have him, but his offensive abilities were jacked up to be more than what they really are.
Overhyped and underproductive? Forget about Gagne for a minute, are Carter and Richards legit, sure-fire top-6 (if not top-3) prospects? Yes or no? Who can you name from the Rangers farm that even comes close?
Quote:
What I'm talking about is the way the farm systems look now.
You can't use that arugment if Philly brought their young players up. If they were Rangers property, sure Carter and Richards would still be in the AHL. So too would Picard. However, they are not.
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And honestly, I'm not sure if Richards will be a top-6 forward,
Come on, dude. You sure you are being objective here?
Quote:
That has nothing to do with the issue I'm discussing, which is the current state of the prospect depth of each organization within the division.
Taking the position that a team's farm system is poor becuase they have sent their top players to the big club is rathe short sighted. Let me know when the Rangers have EVER matched the amount of home-grown players that the Flyers have.
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Philly's is piss-poor, even after this trade, if you ask me. With the lack of depth they have at every position, they would need at least one or two home-run prospects to make up for it.
Gagne is barely 27 years old and is a legit top line forward. Richards and Carter are extremely young and are (at a minimum) top-6 forward prospects. Umberger scored 20 goals in his first full year and looks to be a 2nd line power-forward type. Eager is here. Downie is coming. Pitkanen is a legit future top-pairing defenseman. They just traded for Parent. They are getting a top-5 (if not top-2) lottery pick this year and can draft a goalie of the future with the extra pick they got from Nashville, not to mention they can move up, a la the Rangers, with the extra 3rd round pick they got. Even if Downie is an Avery clone (as you say), that is still pretty good. Plus they can go out and sign a goalie if they choose to. And this is what you call a "piss-poor" farm system?
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Their only defender with top-4 potential is Ryan Parent.
You really can't gloss over the fact that Pitkanen is already at the big level and Picard just got here.
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I've seen him at the last two WJC's, and if you ask me, he has the potential to be a solid shutdown, stay-at-home #3.
You mean like Marc Staal?
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As for Umberger, he's nothing special.
A 6-2, 210+ lbs 24 year-old that scored 20 goals in his first full year, and has the same amount as Prucha this year seems pretty good to me. If he is nothing special, what does that make Prucha?
Quote:
He had attitude problems, and wanted a big entry-level deal, which Sather balked at, and rightfully so.
I haven't heard anyone in Philly complain about his so-called attitude problems. As a matter of fact, the only place I hear of them are on this board. I certainly do not recall any Ranger player making such ocmments. His "bit entery-level deal" consisted of being $250,000 more than what Sather was offering. Considering how Jackass loves to overspend on #6 defenseman, how can you even begin to quibble over $250K with a kid who has 2nd line potential. All I know is that he would look pretty good as a Ranger right now.
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Who cares about him?
As a fan of a team that is devoid of legit top-6 forward talent, I do. And for $250k, so too should you be. How long has it been since a homegrown player skated on the top 2 lines for a full year here?
Quote:
Could we use him? Yeah, but there's two centers we have in this system who have the potential to be leaps and bounds better. Dubinsky, who plays a very similar game, and is far more talented, if you ask me, and Anisimov, who has the potential to be a 1st liner.
Let's hold off comparing Dubinsky to him, until he actually nets 20 goals in a year, shall we? And Anisimov is so far off the radar at this point, that he does not even factor into the equation. And that is the wrong point to argue, considering that for $250k, the Rangers could have had Umberger AND Dubinsky AND Anisimov.

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Old
02-18-2007, 03:35 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by True Blue View Post
Overhyped and underproductive? Forget about Gagne for a minute, are Carter and Richards legit, sure-fire top-6 (if not top-3) prospects? Yes or no? Who can you name from the Rangers farm that even comes close?
I believe Dubinsky and Anisimov will be just as good, if not better. Callahan is absolutely tearing up the AHL right now, and has made people think twice about his ceiling.

Quote:
You can't use that arugment if Philly brought their young players up. If they were Rangers property, sure Carter and Richards would still be in the AHL. So too would Picard. However, they are not.

Come on, dude. You sure you are being objective here?
Remember, I'm not the one who proposed that argument. GarretJoseph said that the Forsberg trade helped the Flyers leap frog the Isles and Devils in terms of prospect depth, in which one prospect, and two draft picks which haven't been used yet can't do so.

The thing is, that was the argument. Which team has the best PROSPECT depth. Right now, those players are not prospects. Does Philly have us in young NHL talent? Yes. Do they have us in prospect talent? No, it's not even close.

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Taking the position that a team's farm system is poor becuase they have sent their top players to the big club is rathe short sighted. Let me know when the Rangers have EVER matched the amount of home-grown players that the Flyers have.
Again, let me start off by saying that was the argument at hand. What team in the atlantic has the best prospect depth. I'm not saying their farm system in general is poor, but it is right now because the talent has graduated.

Quote:
Gagne is barely 27 years old and is a legit top line forward. Richards and Carter are extremely young and are (at a minimum) top-6 forward prospects. Umberger scored 20 goals in his first full year and looks to be a 2nd line power-forward type. Eager is here. Downie is coming. Pitkanen is a legit future top-pairing defenseman. They just traded for Parent. They are getting a top-5 (if not top-2) lottery pick this year and can draft a goalie of the future with the extra pick they got from Nashville, not to mention they can move up, a la the Rangers, with the extra 3rd round pick they got. Even if Downie is an Avery clone (as you say), that is still pretty good. Plus they can go out and sign a goalie if they choose to. And this is what you call a "piss-poor" farm system?
Right now, the cupboard is somewhat bare down there. I never said in general, the Flyers have/had a piss-poor farm system. Gagne was a farmhand about 8 years ago... we might as well be mentioning Brendl and Lundmark on the Rangers perspective if we're going to talk about that time period.

Quote:
You really can't gloss over the fact that Pitkanen is already at the big level and Picard just got here.
I'm not, although Picard is not all too impressive, if you ask me. Reminds me too much of Tom Poti without the offensive skill.

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You mean like Marc Staal?
Yes, I believe they're similar players. Although most have said that Staal's potential is more of a top-pairing guy, and I believe he has better offensive skills.

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A 6-2, 210+ lbs 24 year-old that scored 20 goals in his first full year, and has the same amount as Prucha this year seems pretty good to me. If he is nothing special, what does that make Prucha?
Having the same amount of goals as Prucha is nothing to brag about, being that Prucha has played the majority of this season on the 3rd and 4th lines, because that moron Renney has mishandled him.

Quote:
I haven't heard anyone in Philly complain about his so-called attitude problems. As a matter of fact, the only place I hear of them are on this board. I certainly do not recall any Ranger player making such ocmments. His "bit entery-level deal" consisted of being $250,000 more than what Sather was offering. Considering how Jackass loves to overspend on #6 defenseman, how can you even begin to quibble over $250K with a kid who has 2nd line potential. All I know is that he would look pretty good as a Ranger right now.
$250,000 more for what? What did he prove at that point? Nothing. I don't think he was rejected because of money, but moreso because of principal. The players those jackasses were overpaying were established players who were past prime. They were somewhat worth what they were being offered. Then again, if this team ever had a good coach, and a clue for all of those years, it would have been half-dangerous.

I agree with you overspending on #6 defenders, and I'm not a fan of it either. But some kid who really didn't do anything all too special at the NCAA level comes in and demands this and that? Get real. That's an attitude problem. That's the same reason why Vancouver traded him to us. Because he wanted money that he didn't deserve.

Quote:
As a fan of a team that is devoid of legit top-6 forward talent, I do. And for $250k, so too should you be. How long has it been since a homegrown player skated on the top 2 lines for a full year here?
Not $250K in general, $250k more than what Sather offered. I don't think Slats is stupid enough to turn down a prospect because he wanted $250k in general. Umberger wanted an upwards of a million give or take, and Sather offered about $700K give or take.

Quote:
Let's hold off comparing Dubinsky to him, until he actually nets 20 goals in a year, shall we? And Anisimov is so far off the radar at this point, that he does not even factor into the equation. And that is the wrong point to argue, considering that for $250k, the Rangers could have had Umberger AND Dubinsky AND Anisimov.
Like I said, I believe those players will be better, and bring more to the table than Umberger will. I think what you see is what you get from him at this point. Besides, those players aren't asking for more money. Should we give them more money too, just because they're young players?

Should we just give every young player with the potential to be a top-6 forward more money because he wants it? No, because then it sets a precedent, that's why. This was a guy who didn't even play an ounce AHL hockey, yet alone NHL hockey, demanding a mill a year. Who or what made him a generational talent?

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Old
02-18-2007, 04:40 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Jon Prescription View Post
Ouellet and Christensen weren't anything to begin with
Did I say they were? Just pointed out that after Pittsburgh graduated most of their picks they do not have a lot left.

Just funny how Dubinsky and Anisimov will be better then Carter and Richards lol.. Thats all..

One guy is in Russia (you do not see his development at all just stats, not that he is a bad player) and another player is half of point player in AHL... Potulny is almost a point per game player and already prove that he can play in NHL. Better then Dubinsky...

Flyers used about 43 playing this season in NHL.. So no wonder they were pulling players from AHL and their numbers do not look that good. What if Potulny will outscore Dubinsky.. He has a chance to do it, he is only 9 points away from Dubbie playing 30 games less in AHL. A good chance. What will clowns like Gretz say?

Giroux shoting % is almost at 30 in QMJHL has a chance to have the same #s Gagne did, while Downie is a 2 PPG player in OHL.

and every Flyers d-sive prospect reminds of Tom Poti.. lol

The only edge NYR have is in goal.. We do not have a prospect like Montoya.


Last edited by Kaktus*: 02-18-2007 at 05:08 PM.
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Old
02-18-2007, 06:06 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
He didn't, just like some Flyers players this season taken a few steps back this season (doesn't mean Tyutin sucks) BUT this Flyers team is going nowhere this season.
so you don't have a clue about Tyutin, clearly

you also neglect that Downie actually has lower points per game at the junior level than Avery did, pretty significant too (1.144 vs .979). and Downie is nowhere near 2 PPG this season.

and you brush off the Rangers dominance in goal like it's nothing. they have two young studs in net, whereas the Flyers are bare. both you and I should know that a team goes nowhere with a good goalie.

maybe the Rangers could sign Daniel Tzachuk to match Lars Jonsson.

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Old
02-18-2007, 06:12 PM
  #84
CM Lundqvist
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Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
Did I say they were? Just pointed out that after Pittsburgh graduated most of their picks they do not have a lot left.

Just funny how Dubinsky and Anisimov will be better then Carter and Richards lol.. Thats all..

One guy is in Russia (you do not see his development at all just stats, not that he is a bad player) and another player is half of point player in AHL... Potulny is almost a point per game player and already prove that he can play in NHL. Better then Dubinsky...

Flyers used about 43 playing this season in NHL.. So no wonder they were pulling players from AHL and their numbers do not look that good. What if Potulny will outscore Dubinsky.. He has a chance to do it, he is only 9 points away from Dubbie playing 30 games less in AHL. A good chance. What will clowns like Gretz say?

Giroux shoting % is almost at 30 in QMJHL has a chance to have the same #s Gagne did, while Downie is a 2 PPG player in OHL.

and every Flyers d-sive prospect reminds of Tom Poti.. lol

The only edge NYR have is in goal.. We do not have a prospect like Montoya.
You lied about Downie being the 2005 WJC MVP, so instead of trying to spin your prospects off like a little fanboy, how about you go do some damn research about the Flyers prospects before you bash the Rangers prospects.

I have nothing more to say.

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02-18-2007, 07:03 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by GretzNYR99 View Post
What I'm talking about is the way the farm systems look now.
Meh. If that's what you're limiting the conversation to, then who really cares? I'm not a fan of the Wolfpack; I'm a fan of the Rangers. I really don't care how good the farm system is; I care about the young players it produces for the big team. From that perspective, the Flyers have pummeled the Rangers and look to continue that dominance with what's on their horizon.

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02-18-2007, 07:16 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by GretzNYR99 View Post
You lied about Downie being the 2005 WJC MVP, so instead of trying to spin your prospects off like a little fanboy, how about you go do some damn research about the Flyers prospects before you bash the Rangers prospects.

I have nothing more to say.
I lied? you've got to stop acting like a 5 year old child. Get over this already... All I said was that Downie participated in 2 WJC, was one of the best players and was MVP, in on statement. He was MVP in Windsor... I was giving his career accomplishments and awards… Accomplishments that Dubinsky never achieved in his career. My god..

After 2007 Flyers will have a better group of players and our top 3 pick will be in NHL real soon...

You making a fool out of your self... downgrading Flyers prospects and players looking like a total moron. It's not like I came to Rangers boards and said that Staal, Sanguinetti, Montoya suck.

So how many times did you see Anisimov play? Whats the difference between him and Kaigorodov and how
the hell Dubinsky & Anisimov will be better then both Richards and Carter when Dubinsky can not outplay Potulny in AHL?


Last edited by Kaktus*: 02-18-2007 at 07:28 PM.
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02-18-2007, 07:26 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
I lied? you've got to stop acting like a 5 year old child. Get over this already... All I said was that Downie participated in 2 WJC, was one of the best players and was MVP, in on statement. He was MVP in Windsor... I was giving his career accomplishments and awards… Accomplishments that Dubinsky never achieved in his career. My god..
first of all, that's a ridiculous cop-out

second of all, of course Dubinsky was never MVP in Windsor, he was MVP in Portland though

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02-19-2007, 11:24 AM
  #88
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this is still going on wow......my dad can beat your dad.

is rich kozak considered a decent prospect? just curious

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02-19-2007, 02:22 PM
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is rich kozak considered a decent prospect? just curious
no

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02-19-2007, 02:53 PM
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no
why? just not a good player?

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