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Erik Gustafsson (2012-13 season and beyond)

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Old
03-10-2014, 09:08 AM
  #226
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Not sure I get he Gus love affair by many fans, and not just on this board. He seems like a pretty average 3rd pair defenseman to me which essentially kills a players career if he is undersized. Is it because of the other slop on the blueline?
How many average, 3rd pair defenseman lead their team in +/-?

He also has the second highest rate of ES scoring on the defense this season.

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03-10-2014, 09:12 AM
  #227
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Originally Posted by Curufinwe View Post
How many average, 3rd pair defenseman lead their team in +/-?

He also has the second highest rate of ES scoring on the defense this season.
He's also played in less than half the games this season so both of those stats are skewed somewhat.

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03-10-2014, 09:15 AM
  #228
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Without going back and quoting every person who replied to my post...

I'd have no problem if they benched Grossmann or Schenn or even Timonen. I'm not saying you can never bench a vet. What I am saying is that when a veteran type of player gets benched, it typically is not for long unless the replacement absolutely dominates, the team is in a rebuild, or the replacement is the new stud kind of player (a changing of the guard type of situation).

You bench Grossmann for the next game. Gus plays well. He gets the next start. He plays well again. He plays the next game and doesn't play well. Guess what, he's getting benched. He doesn't get the latitude a veteran gets. He has to play at a high level every game to keep his spot. You may not think that is fair and you make think that is a bad choice, but that's the way it goes. You don't earn a spot over a veteran guy based on sporadic decent play spread out over parts of four seasons.
Nobody is saying otherwise. It doesn't make it any less stupid though.

Btw, I completely agree that it's not as simple as comparing a few stats considering the difference in minutes played. I'm sure many of Gus' numbers wouldn't look as good given more playing time but he'd have to be abysmal not to be an upgrade over Grossmann.


Last edited by FlyersFan61290: 03-10-2014 at 09:22 AM. Reason: Typo
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03-10-2014, 09:19 AM
  #229
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I'm fully confident that Gus would be an upgrade over Gross & Schenn. I don't care about stats or eye test.

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03-10-2014, 09:37 AM
  #230
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I'm fully confident that Gus would be an upgrade over Gross & Schenn. I don't care about stats or eye test.
I would like to see Gustafsson playing together regularly with Schenn on next season, and Grossman shipped away in the offseason.

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03-10-2014, 09:43 AM
  #231
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Originally Posted by FlyersFan61290 View Post
Nobody is saying otherwise. It doesn't make it any less stupid though.
I guess that's the big disconnect here. You see it as stupid, I see it as the better choice. I guess it comes down to an odds calculation at the end of the day. You have a 30 year old player with 350+ NHL games under his belt, which for the most part have been solid defensive defenseman type games. You have a 25 year old with 90 games spread out over four seasons, which have been up and down, never too bad and never that outstanding. The 30 year old is slumping, while the 25 year old has played well in his limited opportunity. You look at both and say, "Is it more likely that the 30 year old that has been doing this for years will get back to the defensive stalwart he once was, or is it more likely that he continues to play poorly," or "is it more likely that the 25 year old with limited NHL experience will improve/play at a higher level than than the 30 year old, or with more exposure will he regress or otherwise play poorly?"

I'd put my money on the experienced guy every day of the week, unless the 25 year old is the type of high pick, high investment, high ceiling player (which Gus is not) or he is playing out of his mind (which Gus is not). Again, I have no problem benching Grossmann and letting Gus step in. But if he has a bad game, he's going to get benched.

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Btw, I completely agree that it's not as simple as comparing a few stats considering the difference in minutes played. I'm sure many of Gus' numbers wouldn't look as good given more playing time but he'd have to be abysmal not to be an upgrade over Grossmann.
Fair enough. I guess we'll see. I'm not sure he gets re-signed here so it will likely come form somewhere else.

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03-10-2014, 10:10 AM
  #232
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Gus right now would be an upgrade without a doubt but we need Grossmann to come back around to serviceability here if he's healthy, I'm hoping all this practice time helps out and that McD takes a bunch of his minutes. With Streit and Timonen in the lineup, adding Gus kind of takes us below a certain threshold of physicality (5'10) against a lot of teams on the back end, although Mcd adds some. Someone will get injured sooner or later, probably Grossmann, and Gus is back in to bail us out it's actually kinda nice. If Mcdonald can look as good as he has, then he could replace some of Gross' physicality, he had a few nice checks. His addition makes Grossman a lot less valuable to us for the moment though and Gus would make a nice twist I'm sure.

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03-10-2014, 10:17 AM
  #233
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Originally Posted by Doors View Post
I would like to see Gustafsson playing together regularly with Schenn on next season, and Grossman shipped away in the offseason.
Not sure I like that pairing. Schenn, and I'm not trying to be overly critical, needs a veteran right now.

In addition, I think all defensemen are in a holding pattern until Kimmo reveals his plans. They may need bodies.

Grossman has had a rough patch, but if he can get back in the groove he's a strong option for a back-pairing. Not sure what is wrong with him currently-- there were long long stretches where he was very solid. I wonder about his confidence right now. He played well, then badly, then righted the ship for a bit there, but went back to having issues.

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03-10-2014, 10:19 AM
  #234
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I guess that's the big disconnect here. You see it as stupid, I see it as the better choice. I guess it comes down to an odds calculation at the end of the day. You have a 30 year old player with 350+ NHL games under his belt, which for the most part have been solid defensive defenseman type games. You have a 25 year old with 90 games spread out over four seasons, which have been up and down, never too bad and never that outstanding. The 30 year old is slumping, while the 25 year old has played well in his limited opportunity. You look at both and say, "Is it more likely that the 30 year old that has been doing this for years will get back to the defensive stalwart he once was, or is it more likely that he continues to play poorly," or "is it more likely that the 25 year old with limited NHL experience will improve/play at a higher level than than the 30 year old, or with more exposure will he regress or otherwise play poorly?"

I'd put my money on the experienced guy every day of the week, unless the 25 year old is the type of high pick, high investment, high ceiling player (which Gus is not) or he is playing out of his mind (which Gus is not). Again, I have no problem benching Grossmann and letting Gus step in. But if he has a bad game, he's going to get benched.



Fair enough. I guess we'll see. I'm not sure he gets re-signed here so it will likely come form somewhere else.
That's part of the issue as well. Grossmann is and always has been a 3rd pairing d-man. So if you're asking do I think Gus can play as well or better then a 3rd pairing d-man now and in the future then the answer is yes. It's also a matter of what these guys bring to the table. Grossmann is slow and can't move the puck but hits like a truck and can block shots. Well we already have people who can do all that and better so he's redundant. The team needs better skating d-man, Gus provides that.

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03-10-2014, 10:26 AM
  #235
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Not sure I like that pairing. Schenn, and I'm not trying to be overly critical, needs a veteran right now.
No, he doesn't. He needs a partner who can skate quickly and pass the puck well.

LSchenn has looked MUCH better this season playing with Gus than he has playing with Grosmann and Meszaros. Two veterans.

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03-10-2014, 10:29 AM
  #236
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Originally Posted by FlyersFan61290 View Post
That's part of the issue as well. Grossmann is and always has been a 3rd pairing d-man. So if you're asking do I think Gus can play as well or better then a 3rd pairing d-man now and in the future then the answer is yes. It's also a matter of what these guys bring to the table. Grossmann is slow and can't move the puck but hits like a truck and can block shots. Well we already have people who can do all that and better so he's redundant. The team needs better skating d-man, Gus provides that.
Fair enough. I think Grossmann as a pure defensive defenseman is a good asset to keep around. I like the idea of having a defensive or physical guy on each pairing. Schenn and Grossmann fit that bill nicely, and Coburn does as well, though I think he has much better offensive ability than the other two.

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03-10-2014, 10:32 AM
  #237
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Fair enough. I think Grossmann as a pure defensive defenseman is a good asset to keep around. I like the idea of having a defensive or physical guy on each pairing. Schenn and Grossmann fit that bill nicely, and Coburn does as well, though I think he has much better offensive ability than the other two.
I think the days of "defensive defensemen" are gone. You need 6 guys that can skate well, move the puck and make smart decisions.

Grossman pretty much does NONE of those.

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03-10-2014, 10:48 AM
  #238
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Fair enough. I think Grossmann as a pure defensive defenseman is a good asset to keep around. I like the idea of having a defensive or physical guy on each pairing. Schenn and Grossmann fit that bill nicely, and Coburn does as well, though I think he has much better offensive ability than the other two.
I wouldn't mind having a defensive d-man on each pair but that doesn't have to mean slow or black hole offensively.

Coburn is better offensively then the other two as you said but Schenn isn't too far behind. Schenn averages 4 less points per 82 then Coburn (~19pts per for Schenn and ~23pts per for Coburn over their respective careers). Grossmann on the other hand averages 11 points per 82.

Edit: I see Grossmann is at 11 pts this season, but that's way above his avg in terms of ppg.

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03-10-2014, 10:48 AM
  #239
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Originally Posted by Psuhockey View Post
Not sure I get he Gus love affair by many fans, and not just on this board. He seems like a pretty average 3rd pair defenseman to me which essentially kills a players career if he is undersized. Is it because of the other slop on the blueline?
I can't speak for everyone else but basically yes. I don't even really like Gus that much. In fact at some point near mid season last year I declared my self "done" with Gustafsson because he just not particularly good at any area to be particularly useful as anything other than a 6th/7th defenseman (on a good team), and never developing anything beyond that. He has played better than he did during that stretch where I became so frustrated with him. But during this season Grossmann and Mez have been such garbage that even given my not that high opinion of him that I really want him in the line up.

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03-10-2014, 11:20 AM
  #240
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Without going back and quoting every person who replied to my post...

I'd have no problem if they benched Grossmann or Schenn or even Timonen. I'm not saying you can never bench a vet. What I am saying is that when a veteran type of player gets benched, it typically is not for long unless the replacement absolutely dominates, the team is in a rebuild, or the replacement is the new stud kind of player (a changing of the guard type of situation).

You bench Grossmann for the next game. Gus plays well. He gets the next start. He plays well again. He plays the next game and doesn't play well. Guess what, he's getting benched. He doesn't get the latitude a veteran gets. He has to play at a high level every game to keep his spot. You may not think that is fair and you make think that is a bad choice, but that's the way it goes. You don't earn a spot over a veteran guy based on sporadic decent play spread out over parts of four seasons.
Grossmann continues to make more egregious mistakes yet he seemingly gets a free pass. Gus gets a shot and makes one mistake and gets sent back to the pressbox.
yup. that makes sense to me
cant wait for Hagg,Morin and Ghost to get here. will they be treated the same? if so
just awesome for their development.

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03-10-2014, 11:28 AM
  #241
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It's not really about Gus vs Grossmann in a vacuum, it's who is a better fit for the team needs, and I think that someone who can move the puck is a better fit to play with Schenn than someone who can't. And that really is what we're talking about since the other pairings are pretty much set.

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03-10-2014, 11:30 AM
  #242
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It's not really about Gus vs Grossmann in a vacuum, it's who is a better fit for the team needs, and I think that someone who can move the puck is a better fit to play with Schenn than someone who can't. And that really is what we're talking about since the other pairings are pretty much set.
Gus and Schenn played really well together.

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03-10-2014, 11:41 AM
  #243
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I don't buy this whole "blind loyalty to veterans because they were good once so maybe they'll be good again" spiel.

That doesn't work in the salary cap era. Now more than ever an ability to develop your own talent from within is highly important to a franchise's success. Sitting a promising player (who has outplayed several vets at every opportunity) in favor of a veteran who "has paid their dues" (usually elsewhere) does nothing but hold prospect development back, and that holds the organization back.

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03-10-2014, 11:41 AM
  #244
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
Grossmann continues to make more egregious mistakes yet he seemingly gets a free pass. Gus gets a shot and makes one mistake and gets sent back to the pressbox.
yup. that makes sense to me
So what is the standard then? Everyone gets a free pass? No one gets a free pass? There has to be a distinction. How long does a vet get to lose his spot? What about an unproven guy? Grossmann is having a down year. Absolutely. No doubt. When should he have been benched? Is that it, he gets benched at game 30 and now its Gus's spot for the rest of the year? Does he not get another opportunity or does he take a game or two off and then come back? What would it take to bench Gus and put Grossmann back in? Two bad games? Three? Do they have to be in a row? Simply saying "Gus is better, Berube is stupid" is not a grand solution to this team's defense.

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cant wait for Hagg,Morin and Ghost to get here. will they be treated the same? if so
just awesome for their development.
I think I have made it pretty clear that guys that the team has invested a lot of time or money or draft picks into are treated differently. Morin is the presumed future anchor of this defense. He will be given every opportunity to make the team when the time is right. Hagg is another guy in which a lot has been invested. Ghost moreso than Gus but not as much as with Hagg and Morin. This really isn't a hard concept.

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03-10-2014, 11:43 AM
  #245
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
Gus and Schenn played really well together.
And that's because they compliment each other. None of these 3 players (Gus, Grossmann, or Schenn) are anything special. They're solid bottom pairing defenseman at this point, and the coaching staff needs to do what they can to maximize their effectiveness.

You can't play two slow players who can't move the puck on the same pairing, you just can't. The same way you couldn't play two really small player's, like Gus, at the same time.

That's why it should be Gus-Schenn, or Gus-Grossmann for most games.

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03-10-2014, 11:45 AM
  #246
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I think I have made it pretty clear that guys that the team has invested a lot of time or money or draft picks into are treated differently. Morin is the presumed future anchor of this defense. He will be given every opportunity to make the team when the time is right. Hagg is another guy in which a lot has been invested. Ghost moreso than Gus but not as much as with Hagg and Morin. This really isn't a hard concept.
The organization has made promises of change before. They lied.


You don't just flip the switch and become instantly good at developing Dmen. The treatment of Gus is highly troubling. The organization has invested heavily in dmen in the last two drafts and shown an inability to handle young D talent. If they don't begin changing their mentality immediately those drafts will have been a waste.

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03-10-2014, 11:48 AM
  #247
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I don't buy this whole "blind loyalty to veterans because they were good once so maybe they'll be good again" spiel.

That doesn't work in the salary cap era. Now more than ever an ability to develop your own talent from within is highly important to a franchise's success. Sitting a promising player (who has outplayed several vets at every opportunity) in favor of a veteran who "has paid their dues" (usually elsewhere) does nothing but hold prospect development back, and that holds the organization back.
But blind loyalty to prospects is the same thing isn't? Why trust that a prospect will develop moreso than that a vet will rebound? It seems entirely illogical to bank on a player with no track record getting better than to bank on a vet that has proven he can play well in the past. There are exceptions to every rule (highly touted guys, injuries, much older players, etc), but for the most part, in hockey and anything else, isn't always a better bet to go with something proven rather than unproven? Sure, going with something unproven may payoff at times, but is not the safest bet to go with what you know?

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03-10-2014, 11:52 AM
  #248
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
But blind loyalty to prospects is the same thing isn't? Why trust that a prospect will develop moreso than that a vet will rebound? It seems entirely illogical to bank on a player with no track record getting better than to bank on a vet that has proven he can play well in the past. There are exceptions to every rule (highly touted guys, injuries, much older players, etc), but for the most part, in hockey and anything else, isn't always a better bet to go with something proven rather than unproven? Sure, going with something unproven may payoff at times, but is not the safest bet to go with what you know?
It's not blind loyalty to a prospect. It's recognizing that the prospect is outplaying a veteran, and therefore he should be given a chance to grow into that role...not benched at the first possible opportunity to throw the inferior veteran into the roster.

That's the thing...nobody is calling for blind loyalty to prospects. If a prospect is inferior, then they don't play. But if they are superior to a veteran, then they should. Blind loyalty to prospects isn't the issue here, because the Flyers have absolutely zero problem with that. They have the opposite problem, an over-enthusiasm for veterans.

Just look at Hal Gill. What a dumb signing. He serves zero purpose. That's a role that should be filled by AHL callups if needed; they're likely to be at just about the same level of effectiveness, AND you get to evaluate them at the NHL level. Instead, the org chooses to place a guy with no future in the roster ahead of guys who just might have some sort of future.

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03-10-2014, 12:02 PM
  #249
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
It's not blind loyalty to a prospect. It's recognizing that the prospect is outplaying a veteran, and therefore he should be given a chance to grow into that role...not benched at the first possible opportunity to throw the inferior veteran into the roster.

That's the thing...nobody is calling for blind loyalty to prospects. If a prospect is inferior, then they don't play. But if they are superior to a veteran, then they should. Blind loyalty to prospects isn't the issue here, because the Flyers have absolutely zero problem with that. They have the opposite problem, an over-enthusiasm for veterans.

Just look at Hal Gill. What a dumb signing. He serves zero purpose. That's a role that should be filled by AHL callups if needed; they're likely to be at just about the same level of effectiveness, AND you get to evaluate them at the NHL level. Instead, the org chooses to place a guy with no future in the roster ahead of guys who just might have some sort of future.
But what you are talking about isn't what is going on. What you are arguing for is for Gus to be given a chance to prove he is superior, unless you are going to tell me that Gus's last 27 games vs. Grossmann's last 63 games tells the tale, at which point I would vehemently disagree and revert to my argument that it is at least as likely that Grossmann rebounds than it is that Gus continues or improves.

If Gus deserves a shot to keep his spot, why doesn't Grossmann deserve a shot to get it back? Like I said in my last post to a different user...at what point does Gus lose the spot? Is it his spot now because he is 25 and Grossmann is 29 and is slumping? How many bad games would it take for Gus to lose the job to Grossmann? And so forth and so on. I'd like to hear an answer to those questions, because if you can convince me that there is a method to your plan then I can come around to your position.

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03-10-2014, 12:11 PM
  #250
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
I don't buy this whole "blind loyalty to veterans because they were good once so maybe they'll be good again" spiel.

That doesn't work in the salary cap era. Now more than ever an ability to develop your own talent from within is highly important to a franchise's success. Sitting a promising player (who has outplayed several vets at every opportunity) in favor of a veteran who "has paid their dues" (usually elsewhere) does nothing but hold prospect development back, and that holds the organization back.
In fairness a lot of teams do this to some extent. It's still archaic and stupid thinking, but it's not unique to this organization at least.

Also in fairness, this is the worst case of preferential treatment I've seen in a long while. Grossmann inherently doesn't have a skill-set that this team needs, has not been benched once to my memory (or at least almost never is), and has brought pretty much nothing to the table for many games now due to really poor play combined with limited uses.

So archaic old-boys club type thinking isn't unique to the Flyers, but it's still stupid and it's pretty ridiculous at this point in this case.

Honestly, Gustafsson could replace Grossmann for a few games and play like complete poop and I'd still be happy with the switch because at least then I might have some faith and hope in Berube to play players impartially and fairly to field the best potential lineup with accountability.


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