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Erik Gustafsson (2012-13 season and beyond)

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03-10-2014, 01:59 PM
  #276
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Originally Posted by Curufinwe View Post
No, he doesn't. He needs a partner who can skate quickly and pass the puck well.

LSchenn has looked MUCH better this season playing with Gus than he has playing with Grosmann and Meszaros. Two veterans.
Let me rephrase: A good veteran.

L.Schenn shouldn't be anywhere near Grossmann or Mez.

I'd rather him play with Gus, but ideally, he would play with someone with a similar skillset to Gus with more experience.

If Gus makes a mistake and Grossmann is his partner-- poor Mason.

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03-10-2014, 02:21 PM
  #277
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I have repeatedly said I don't care if Grossmann gets benched or if Gus plays. I just don't agree with people's willingness to get rid of a guy or permanently bench him or whatever because Gus has played well for 27 games. You want to bench Grossmann, great. Bench him. But when Gus has a bad game or a bad stretch, if the coach wants to go back to the proven vet, be my guest. Don't whine and say "it's not fair he played so well the other day why is he being punished for his mistakes when another guy isn't?!" The reason is what I have been saying...he doesn't have the track record. He hasn't earned the right to be given that extra chance.
It's not that we want Grossmann gone because Gustaffson has played well. It's that we want Grossmann gone and Gustaffson has played well.

If Gus didn't exist I'd still want Grossmann gone because he's hurting the team and it doesn't just have to do with his current play, it's because of the type of player he is and we don't need that, we already have a player like Schenn who has the same type of style as grossman but he's at least better with the puck. We also just got MacDonald who is a lot better than Grossmann at moving the puck and he blocks more shots too. It just so happens that Gus is the perfect player to replace him because he's the type of player we need and he has been playing well lately. On top of that Schenn is clearly better when playing with Gus.

If Gus has a bad stretch, we should stick with him for a while and hope he bounces back (but not for 3+ months) or we find someone else to play there. At the very least we should seriously limit his playing time, which isn't happening with Grossmann. If all that doesn't work then you call someone up and hope that they can at least do one single thing properly so they aren't 100% useless.

If your current car that is completely broken and you have a backup car that runs fine then you should use that car. If the backup car breaks don't go sit in the first one even though it doesn't work, go borrow your neighbors bike so you can at least move.

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03-10-2014, 02:38 PM
  #278
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Originally Posted by Striiker View Post
It's not that we want Grossmann gone because Gustaffson has played well. It's that we want Grossmann gone and Gustaffson has played well.

If Gus didn't exist I'd still want Grossmann gone because he's hurting the team and it doesn't just have to do with his current play, it's because of the type of player he is and we don't need that, we already have a player like Schenn who has the same type of style as grossman but he's at least better with the puck. We also just got MacDonald who is a lot better than Grossmann at moving the puck and he blocks more shots too. It just so happens that Gus is the perfect player to replace him because he's the type of player we need and he has been playing well lately. On top of that Schenn is clearly better when playing with Gus.

If Gus has a bad stretch, we should stick with him for a while and hope he bounces back (but not for 3+ months) or we find someone else to play there. At the very least we should seriously limit his playing time, which isn't happening with Grossmann. If all that doesn't work then you call someone up and hope that they can at least do one single thing properly so they aren't 100% useless.
And I don't necessarily have a problem with that approach. I don't think Grossmann is as bad as most are saying, nor do I think it is a forgone conclusion that he can't bounce back. As stated previously, I also like the idea of having a defensive guy like Grossmann out there.

I think the big disconnect here is that people seem to think I am saying don't bench Grossmann or that Gus is terrible or whatever. I'm fine benching Grossmann and I don't think Gus sucks. I think Gus is overrated, for sure, but not that he sucks. I just don't see why people don't understand why a team would have more patience and such with a seasoned veteran over a younger player. Sit Grossmann. Be my guest. But Gus is rightfully going to be on a short leash.

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If your current car that is completely broken and you have a backup car that runs fine then you should use that car. If the backup car breaks don't go sit in the first one even though it doesn't work, go borrow your neighbors bike so you can at least move.
Cars are not hockey players though. If your car doesn't work, it doesn't work. It's not going to all of the sudden start working again. A hockey player can fluctuate in his performance. He may play poorly for a month (or hell even a year) and come back the next season and be better than ever (I'm not saying Grossmann will do that, but you get the idea). A car will not perform that way.

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03-10-2014, 02:46 PM
  #279
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Ok see that is a different argument than you were seemingly making. Just so I have it clear, you are willing to bench players only if there is a better player, not if a player is just playing better? Is that the argument?
No, you don't have it clear. Because you're taking something that is a case-by-case basis and trying to establish a strict formula when there is none. Like I've been saying, you're making this way, way more complicated than it actually is.



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You are willing to throw away an entire body of work based on the last four months? Back to my above quoted text, what if Couturier sucks for the next four months? Do we just leave him in there because there isn't a "better" player or does Holmstrom (or someone) get a shot?
Four straight months of terrible play is something you take notice of. Previous play only gets you so far. How long does Grossmann have to suck for you to stop going on and on and on and on and on about his previous record? Does he have to suck for long than he was a solid player? If so, that's absurd. It's not THAT hard to realize a player is being detrimental.

And again, it's not a black and white, do-this-if-X-happens situation. But if Couturier is as detrimental as Grossmann has been for months then yeah he should be sat down....maybe, depending on who is available. Like I've been saying, there isn't a complex formula here. It's simple. You look at the player and how he's been doing, and then you look to see if there's anybody who may be an improvement laying around.

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03-10-2014, 02:47 PM
  #280
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
And I don't necessarily have a problem with that approach. I don't think Grossmann is as bad as most are saying, nor do I think it is a forgone conclusion that he can't bounce back. As stated previously, I also like the idea of having a defensive guy like Grossmann out there.

I think the big disconnect here is that people seem to think I am saying don't bench Grossmann or that Gus is terrible or whatever. I'm fine benching Grossmann and I don't think Gus sucks. I think Gus is overrated, for sure, but not that he sucks. I just don't see why people don't understand why a team would have more patience and such with a seasoned veteran over a younger player. Sit Grossmann. Be my guest. But Gus is rightfully going to be on a short leash.



Cars are not hockey players though. If your car doesn't work, it doesn't work. It's not going to all of the sudden start working again. A hockey player can fluctuate in his performance. He may play poorly for a month (or hell even a year) and come back the next season and be better than ever (I'm not saying Grossmann will do that, but you get the idea). A car will not perform that way.
I'd agree if it was just a couple of weeks... but Grossmann has been really bad for months...he's used up all the patience he deserves and at this point him not being benched is just bad coaching. Then add to that Gus is just sitting there and this season he's proven that he can play and he makes his partner better. Those two things added together make it a no-brainer to swap the players. As for a short leash for Gus, sure, but it can't be a one bad game short leash. If Grossmann deserves 3+ months Gus should be given a week or two to turn it around if he starts playing badly.

As for the cars/hockey players, I was just trying to get across my thought process on when to move on from one player to another. If someone isn't working for a long time, move on, if the next player isn't working, then move on again. You don't have to stay with something that's not working, especially when there are other options.

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03-10-2014, 02:50 PM
  #281
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Originally Posted by Striiker View Post
If your current car that is completely broken and you have a backup car that runs fine then you should use that car. If the backup car breaks don't go sit in the first one even though it doesn't work, go borrow your neighbors bike so you can at least move.
But that broken car worked fine for a while, shouldn't you just keep rolling with it because it worked well once upon a time?

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03-10-2014, 02:59 PM
  #282
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
But that broken car worked fine for a while, shouldn't you just keep rolling with it because it worked well once upon a time?

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03-10-2014, 04:05 PM
  #283
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
No, you don't have it clear. Because you're taking something that is a case-by-case basis and trying to establish a strict formula when there is none. Like I've been saying, you're making this way, way more complicated than it actually is.
Ok, so what you are then saying is that Gus is better than Grossmann. End of story. Is that accurate?

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Four straight months of terrible play is something you take notice of. Previous play only gets you so far. How long does Grossmann have to suck for you to stop going on and on and on and on and on about his previous record? Does he have to suck for long than he was a solid player? If so, that's absurd. It's not THAT hard to realize a player is being detrimental.
And that is fine. I have never had a problem with benching a struggling a player. But you seem to want to write him off completely, something that happens around here with any struggling player not under 25 (please note: I know this is an exaggeration I don't literally mean that every player over 25 gets that treatment, only that that is the general sentiment around here). Once there is a bad stretch, BOOM! Get rid of him, bench him, trade him, whatever. Bench Grossmann all you want. But as soon as Gus struggles, he's back in. The veteran is always going to get more time to rebound. Gus has a bad game or two and he gets benched. That isn't going to happen to Grossmann. It's just not how it works. Again, go ahead and bench him tomorrow night. But Gus is not, nor should he then be just given the job.

IDK, maybe we are just both missing each other's points here.

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And again, it's not a black and white, do-this-if-X-happens situation. But if Couturier is as detrimental as Grossmann has been for months then yeah he should be sat down....maybe, depending on who is available. Like I've been saying, there isn't a complex formula here. It's simple. You look at the player and how he's been doing, and then you look to see if there's anybody who may be an improvement laying around.
I'm not now nor have I been saying that I am against benching guys or anything like that. Bench whomever you want if they are struggling. No argument here. But there is a difference between benching a guy and a guy losing his spot. You seem to be in favor of Grossmann losing his spot, not simply being benched. Now, you haven't said this, but I imagine that you would have been of this opinion at the first indication of poor play for Grossmann. Which goes back to a question I asked earlier which has gone unanswered...when should Grossmann have been benched? Ten games in? 20? 30?

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I'd agree if it was just a couple of weeks... but Grossmann has been really bad for months...he's used up all the patience he deserves and at this point him not being benched is just bad coaching. Then add to that Gus is just sitting there and this season he's proven that he can play and he makes his partner better. Those two things added together make it a no-brainer to swap the players. As for a short leash for Gus, sure, but it can't be a one bad game short leash. If Grossmann deserves 3+ months Gus should be given a week or two to turn it around if he starts playing badly.
Fair enough. Again, I'm not against giving Gus a shot, I'm against writing off Grossmann altogether in favor of a guy with limited NHL experience.

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As for the cars/hockey players, I was just trying to get across my thought process on when to move on from one player to another. If someone isn't working for a long time, move on, if the next player isn't working, then move on again. You don't have to stay with something that's not working, especially when there are other options.
Absolutely, but like I said, I'd still bet on the known commodity coming back into form over an unknown commodity improving or remaining at a higher level.

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03-10-2014, 04:20 PM
  #284
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No, I did not want to bench Grossmann immediately. I don't know why you would make that assumption.

First, there was Mez, who was horrific defensively to the point where it disrupted the team badly in their own end. Gus should have played over him, because in his time in over Mez he and the team were better. I defended Grossmann for a couple months when others wanted him benched, saying he should have a reduced role first. But at this point, it's clear he's nothing but a weak link and the team would be better served with Gus playing. In his playing time Gus has earned a spot. There's literally nothing else he can do better on his end, and the team still jerks him around.

Honestly, with the way he's played, Grossmann SHOULD lose his spot on the team. He's been that bad for that long. When you're talking about a one-dimensional dman with minimal upside like Grossmann, there's zero reason to be as attached to him as you are. Let him try to get his game back on another team. It's not a huge loss. We aren't talking about a 29 year old Pronger or Timonen going through a slump...that's something you suffer through and hope it turns around, because their upside makes it worth it. Grossmann's upside does not justify hauling him out onto the ice game after game for 4 months to the detriment of the team. It's also easier to come to the conclusion that he is expendable thanks to the fact that we already have a superior player just sitting around, going through the Flyers' usual horribly inept version of Dman development.

You keep calling Gus an unknown quantity. He's not an unknown quantity now. He's played solid hockey every single time he's been given a chance to play for over two years now at all levels. He's pretty known at this point. Keeping Grossmann, who has sucked nearly the whole season, in the roster over him just because Grossmann was good once upon a time is flat out horrible roster management.

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03-10-2014, 04:39 PM
  #285
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Look, it's really simple. We don't need to go into in-depth theoretical situations about other players sucking. We don't need to do all this analysis, that's all deflection to avoid the main point, which I suspect you have no rebuttal for:

Grossmann has been bad. Gus has been good at every chance. Gus should be playing over Grossmann at this point.

It's that simple. Can you refute this simple reality without going into a bunch of convoluted what-if scenarios that aren't a factor on reality?

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03-10-2014, 05:33 PM
  #286
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Honestly, with the way he's played, Grossmann SHOULD lose his spot on the team. He's been that bad for that long. When you're talking about a one-dimensional dman with minimal upside like Grossmann, there's zero reason to be as attached to him as you are. Let him try to get his game back on another team. It's not a huge loss. We aren't talking about a 29 year old Pronger or Timonen going through a slump...that's something you suffer through and hope it turns around, because their upside makes it worth it. Grossmann's upside does not justify hauling him out onto the ice game after game for 4 months to the detriment of the team. It's also easier to come to the conclusion that he is expendable thanks to the fact that we already have a superior player just sitting around, going through the Flyers' usual horribly inept version of Dman development.
Pretty much exactly what I said a few posts ago

Grossmann has been given a pass by Berube for too long, it's Gus' turn to play and prove he deserves to be here.

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03-10-2014, 06:08 PM
  #287
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Look, it's really simple. We don't need to go into in-depth theoretical situations about other players sucking. We don't need to do all this analysis, that's all deflection to avoid the main point, which I suspect you have no rebuttal for:

Grossmann has been bad. Gus has been good at every chance. Gus should be playing over Grossmann at this point.

It's that simple. Can you refute this simple reality without going into a bunch of convoluted what-if scenarios that aren't a factor on reality?
Once again, I'm not saying that Grossmann can't be benched. Go ahead and bench him. What I am saying is that if Gus does get in there, he's going to be on a short leash. That's really all I'm arguing about here (and have been from the beginning). I simply take issue with the way posters complain about patience around here with younger guys but don't seem to have the same patience with veterans (initially Mez, now Grossmann). I know, I know, they've been patient with Grossmann, which is why I said I am fine with him getting benched. But I am not fine with simply writing him off at this point because he's had a bad season and Gus has played well in 27 games. Throw Gus in there. If he plays well leave him in there. Deal Grossmann during the offseason if Gus finishes strong. At that point, I'd be sold on Gus. But I'm not sold based on what I've seen thus far, certainly not to the point where I'm going to just hand him the reigns.

Grossmann get's more of a shot than Gus. Veterans get more of a shot than guys with minimal NHL experience. Grossmann is given more of a chance to right the ship and would be given more of a chance to get back into the lineup should he be benched at some point.

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03-10-2014, 06:26 PM
  #288
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You NEED to show patience with young dmen. It's a hard position to play and learn. The short leash crap the Flyers pull on them is a big reason they can't develop a damned thing on the blueline. If you bench them the moment they make a mistake they aren't going to develop well. He shouldn't be on a short leash. He's proven enough, every time he plays.

At this point, it's on Grossmann to do the proving. He's sucked for a long time. Let him earn trust back in practice...or the AHL if need be. a 3.5 million dollar one dimensional dman who has sucked at his one dimension for most of the season isn't exactly at risk of being claimed.

Grossmann HAS had his shot. The last four months have been his shot. He's blown it.

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03-10-2014, 07:22 PM
  #289
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I think the days of "defensive defensemen" are gone. You need 6 guys that can skate well, move the puck and make smart decisions.

Grossman pretty much does NONE of those.
Like a said before, Grossman is a dinosaur.
The days of the slow defensive defenseman are gone.
He is a liability that looks like a strength.
He blocks a ton of shots because he cannot clear a puck out of the zone.
The speed of the game has passed him by and he is now a relic.
In the days of obstruction where you could hold forwards he had value, no more.

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03-10-2014, 07:47 PM
  #290
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
You NEED to show patience with young dmen. It's a hard position to play and learn. The short leash crap the Flyers pull on them is a big reason they can't develop a damned thing on the blueline. If you bench them the moment they make a mistake they aren't going to develop well. He shouldn't be on a short leash. He's proven enough, every time he plays.

At this point, it's on Grossmann to do the proving. He's sucked for a long time. Let him earn trust back in practice...or the AHL if need be. a 3.5 million dollar one dimensional dman who has sucked at his one dimension for most of the season isn't exactly at risk of being claimed.

Grossmann HAS had his shot. The last four months have been his shot. He's blown it.
We shall see. Like I said, I've got no beef benching Grossmann. Bench away.

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03-10-2014, 07:49 PM
  #291
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
But that broken car worked fine for a while, shouldn't you just keep rolling with it because it worked well once upon a time?
trust me, thats a BAD idea..

a old busted transmission, will remain busted.

yes im looking at you, tired old Flyers defense...


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03-10-2014, 07:52 PM
  #292
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Look, it's really simple. We don't need to go into in-depth theoretical situations about other players sucking. We don't need to do all this analysis, that's all deflection to avoid the main point, which I suspect you have no rebuttal for:

Grossmann has been bad. Gus has been good at every chance. Gus should be playing over Grossmann at this point.

It's that simple. Can you refute this simple reality without going into a bunch of convoluted what-if scenarios that aren't a factor on reality?
It's not that simple. Gus is a small, offensively average Dman. His competition for a starting spot is not Grossmann, it's Timonen, Streit and, now, MacDonald.

Putting Gus in instead of Grossmann would leave the D too small. It's like replacing your defensive end with a small safety.

The other thing people ragging on Grossmann neglect to mention is that he takes a ton of physical abuse for the team, hitting and blocking shots. That goes a long way earning the huge respect the big man gets from his teammates and coaches. He's a warrior and they need him and Luke to keep the other teams' honest.

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03-10-2014, 08:21 PM
  #293
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It's not that simple. Gus is a small, offensively average Dman. His competition for a starting spot is not Grossmann, it's Timonen, Streit and, now, MacDonald.

Putting Gus in instead of Grossmann would leave the D too small. It's like replacing your defensive end with a small safety.

The other thing people ragging on Grossmann neglect to mention is that he takes a ton of physical abuse for the team, hitting and blocking shots. That goes a long way earning the huge respect the big man gets from his teammates and coaches. He's a warrior and they need him and Luke to keep the other teams' honest.
Pair him with Schenn, problem solved.

Grossmann's physical presence is far from enough to justify his other shortcomings.

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03-10-2014, 08:31 PM
  #294
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If a big body presence (yes I sound like Pierre here) is necessary why not give Alt a shot towards the end of the season? Grossmann's basically playing at a #6/7 defensemen level right now, it can't get any worse.

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03-10-2014, 09:07 PM
  #295
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It's not that simple. Gus is a small, offensively average Dman. His competition for a starting spot is not Grossmann, it's Timonen, Streit and, now, MacDonald.

Putting Gus in instead of Grossmann would leave the D too small. It's like replacing your defensive end with a small safety.

The other thing people ragging on Grossmann neglect to mention is that he takes a ton of physical abuse for the team, hitting and blocking shots. That goes a long way earning the huge respect the big man gets from his teammates and coaches. He's a warrior and they need him and Luke to keep the other teams' honest.
Actually, this is the reason I'd like to see Lauridsen get another shot, he's a big slow defenseman, but he has tremendous reach, which I think is the one salvation for big slow defensemen in today's game, it's like the big slow RT in football, if like Fluker they have exceptionally long arms, the fast guys have to go around them, which makes them effectively a lot slower.

I think Berube wants to pair a big defensemen who can clear the crease (face it, Gus ain't moving a lot of people out, and forget it with Ghost) paired with a faster, offensive minded defenseman who can jump into plays and is quick enough to get back.

So you're right, Gus has to beat out Kimmo or Streit or Mez before he was traded. McDonald is more complex, he can play both roles to some extent (which gives him additional value since he can fit more potential pairs). With Ghost a year or two away, Gus may only have 2014-15 to prove he belongs in the top 6, Ghost will quickly move ahead of him. Alt is in the same boat, once Morin and Hagg arrive, he's SOL, and of course, the Russian may also be coming over in a year or two.

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03-10-2014, 09:10 PM
  #296
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It's not that simple. Gus is a small, offensively average Dman. His competition for a starting spot is not Grossmann, it's Timonen, Streit and, now, MacDonald.

Putting Gus in instead of Grossmann would leave the D too small. It's like replacing your defensive end with a small safety.

The other thing people ragging on Grossmann neglect to mention is that he takes a ton of physical abuse for the team, hitting and blocking shots. That goes a long way earning the huge respect the big man gets from his teammates and coaches. He's a warrior and they need him and Luke to keep the other teams' honest.
It is that simple.

Coburn-Timonen
Streit-MacDonald
Gus-Schenn

It's that easy. That defense is much better than the current one, no question.

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03-10-2014, 09:40 PM
  #297
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Pair him with Schenn, problem solved.

Grossmann's physical presence is far from enough to justify his other shortcomings.
I agree.

And I never understood why people were so fascinated with number of hits a player has. Hits are important in hockey for sure but not really the quantity. I mean the Flyers are 7th in the league in hits, does anyone think that really is helping in terms of defense? The Flyers are 21st in the league in GA/G, but if they hit more then maybe that'll go down I guess? Toronto averages just under 3 goals allowed per game and they are 1st in the league in hits. LA has the lowest GA/A and they are 2nd in the league in hits. There is no trend here. Chicago has one d-man in the top 50 in hits (he's 22nd) but they have a substantially better d. The wild don't have any in the top 50. The Flyers have Schenn in 3rd and Grossmann in 15th, whoop dee ****in doo. So if a player can't play defense why should they stick around just so they can hit? It makes no sense.

The same goes for blocked shots. Flyers are middle of the pack in BS. Boston, Chicago and LA all have less. In fact LA is 2nd to last in blocked shots while Toronto is 4th. Even on an individual basis, Boston has one player in the top 50 in blocked shots (27th) but they are 2nd in GA/G.

I'm not saying stopping hitting all together or stop blocking shot but people like to act like the formula to a good defense is hitting and blocking shots when it's in fact keeping the puck out of your end which if done properly will prevent the shots and the need for crushing forecheckers.

Regardless we have Schenn who hits more and MacD who blocks more shots anyway.

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04-26-2014, 04:29 PM
  #298
KaraLupin
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Time to shine baby!

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Old
04-26-2014, 04:43 PM
  #299
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I think it's gonna be Gill who gets the call.

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04-26-2014, 06:07 PM
  #300
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Time to shine baby!
He'll be shining Gill's skates, since Gill is playing tomorrow.

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