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Who might be moving to Glens Falls?

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Old
03-03-2014, 07:28 PM
  #251
mmazz22
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I do feel in some markets a tie to the parent team would help. Like mentioned if the Rangers came back to Bing the atty would increase. When the Sens came here it didn't matter as much as like Utica everyone was just happy to have the AHL back. But.... toss in 5 years straight of no playoffs ,that erodes a fan base and makes them hate a parent club they have no ties too.

I do agree with the AHL quality of play. As I still love it, I do long for the old day's when we saw more vets and less kids. I get it, I understand kids is the way it is going to be ,but I do miss the vets.

Teams folding- I feel the defintion of a team folding is when the franchise ceases to exist not leaving a city. Like for instance the Providence Reds became the Binghamton Dusters,whalers,rangers, then Hartford Wolfpack. The franchise didnt fold, it simply left Bing and Prov.
So we can compare in the last five years what sides of America lost teams and then gained teams Id say it would be pretty even. The AHL forever has had shifted franchises year after year.
IN five years the East has lost:
Lowell,

West lost:
Peoria, Houston

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03-03-2014, 08:25 PM
  #252
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Originally Posted by mmazz22 View Post
I do feel in some markets a tie to the parent team would help. Like mentioned if the Rangers came back to Bing the atty would increase. When the Sens came here it didn't matter as much as like Utica everyone was just happy to have the AHL back. But.... toss in 5 years straight of no playoffs ,that erodes a fan base and makes them hate a parent club they have no ties too.

I do agree with the AHL quality of play. As I still love it, I do long for the old day's when we saw more vets and less kids. I get it, I understand kids is the way it is going to be ,but I do miss the vets.

Teams folding- I feel the defintion of a team folding is when the franchise ceases to exist not leaving a city. Like for instance the Providence Reds became the Binghamton Dusters,whalers,rangers, then Hartford Wolfpack. The franchise didnt fold, it simply left Bing and Prov.
So we can compare in the last five years what sides of America lost teams and then gained teams Id say it would be pretty even. The AHL forever has had shifted franchises year after year.
IN five years the East has lost:
Lowell,

West lost:
Peoria, Houston
Houston became Iowa, which is still playing in the West this season. You are correct about Peoria in the sense that they changed conferences.

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03-03-2014, 10:06 PM
  #253
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Originally Posted by mmazz22 View Post
I do feel in some markets a tie to the parent team would help. Like mentioned if the Rangers came back to Bing the atty would increase. When the Sens came here it didn't matter as much as like Utica everyone was just happy to have the AHL back. But.... toss in 5 years straight of no playoffs ,that erodes a fan base and makes them hate a parent club they have no ties too.

I do agree with the AHL quality of play. As I still love it, I do long for the old day's when we saw more vets and less kids. I get it, I understand kids is the way it is going to be ,but I do miss the vets.

Teams folding- I feel the defintion of a team folding is when the franchise ceases to exist not leaving a city. Like for instance the Providence Reds became the Binghamton Dusters,whalers,rangers, then Hartford Wolfpack. The franchise didnt fold, it simply left Bing and Prov.
So we can compare in the last five years what sides of America lost teams and then gained teams Id say it would be pretty even. The AHL forever has had shifted franchises year after year.
IN five years the East has lost:
Lowell,

West lost:
Peoria, Houston
Using your definition, no one ever loses a team. Peoria went to Utica.

If the team changes owners and moves, that's folding.

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03-03-2014, 10:32 PM
  #254
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Originally Posted by 210 View Post
The legal entity that owned the IceCats was the St Louis Blues. I'm fairly certain they still exist.
The Blues shut down the old legal entity that owned the Ice Cats and created a new one. http://www.privco.com/private-compan...en-hockey-club

And more back-up that Peoria was not the same entity as the Ice Cats

The Rivermen moved to the American Hockey League for the 2005-2006 season, before Saurs sold the franchise to the St. Louis Blues in 2008.

Rivermen Article

Peoria Rivermen Hockey Club is a privately-held company that operates in the Hockey Teams - Professional industry. Peoria Rivermen Hockey Club headquarters are located in Peoria, Illinois. Peoria Rivermen Hockey Club operates as a subsidiary of Vancouver Canucks.

This is a bit old but Vancouver owned them and now the Perioa Rivemen Hockey Club entity no longer exists.

So the Ice Cats legal entity no longer existed. Folded, shut down, whatever you want to call it.

And still no one is going to Glens Falls.


Last edited by Tommy Hawk: 03-03-2014 at 10:38 PM.
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03-03-2014, 11:25 PM
  #255
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Originally Posted by Tommy Hawk View Post
The Blues shut down the old legal entity that owned the Ice Cats and created a new one. http://www.privco.com/private-compan...en-hockey-club
Umm... no....
The Blues sold their AHL franchise, the Worcester IceCats, to Bruce Saurs and Anne Griffith, co-owners of the Blues ECHL affiliate the Peoria Rivermen. Then they announced that they were moving the franchise from Worcester, Mass. to Peoria, Ill. Effectively the Worcester IceCats became the Peoria Rivermen of the AHL and the ECHL Rivermen ceased to exist. The ECHL Peoria franchise folded. They were sold, and relocated.

And at the time, Blues could NOT have created a new entity because they did not own one anymore - not until 2008.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommy Hawk View Post
And more back-up that Peoria was not the same entity as the Ice Cats

The Rivermen moved to the American Hockey League for the 2005-2006 season, before Saurs sold the franchise to the St. Louis Blues in 2008.
I see - so if they weren't the same entity and folded like you said - all the players were dispersed and went to other teams? Oh wait - no they didn't - they went to Peoria.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommy Hawk View Post
Rivermen Article

Peoria Rivermen Hockey Club is a privately-held company that operates in the Hockey Teams - Professional industry. Peoria Rivermen Hockey Club headquarters are located in Peoria, Illinois. Peoria Rivermen Hockey Club operates as a subsidiary of Vancouver Canucks.

This is a bit old but Vancouver owned them and now the Peoria Rivermen Hockey Club entity no longer exists.

So the Ice Cats legal entity no longer existed. Folded, shut down, whatever you want to call it.
The legal entity once known as the IceCats, Rivermen, Springfield Indians/Kings, Syracuse Warriors, Quebec Beavers still exists as the Utica Comets. That means "legal" to the AHL. Their offices may have shut down in all those cities, but the franchise lived on (except ECHL Peoria - that did fold - and I believe they had to pay a fine for that too).

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03-03-2014, 11:52 PM
  #256
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Originally Posted by Speed View Post
Umm... no....
The Blues sold their AHL franchise, the Worcester IceCats, to Bruce Saurs and Anne Griffith, co-owners of the Blues ECHL affiliate the Peoria Rivermen. Then they announced that they were moving the franchise from Worcester, Mass. to Peoria, Ill. Effectively the Worcester IceCats became the Peoria Rivermen of the AHL and the ECHL Rivermen ceased to exist. The ECHL Peoria franchise folded. They were sold, and relocated.

And at the time, Blues could NOT have created a new entity because they did not own one anymore - not until 2008.



I see - so if they weren't the same entity and folded like you said - all the players were dispersed and went to other teams? Oh wait - no they didn't - they went to Peoria.



The legal entity once known as the IceCats, Rivermen, Springfield Indians/Kings, Syracuse Warriors, Quebec Beavers still exists as the Utica Comets. That means "legal" to the AHL. Their offices may have shut down in all those cities, but the franchise lived on (except ECHL Peoria - that did fold - and I believe they had to pay a fine for that too).
And to add on to you post Speed, here's a list of stories from the American Hockey League's official website firmly establishing that Worcester is the same entity. Nowhere does the league say the team folded, just transfered.

Icecats sale to peoria owners
http://theahl.com/mobile/?bblh=mSafa...le&s=&p=136938

Peoria owners transfer to blues owners
http://theahl.com/mobile/?bblh=mSafa...le&s=&p=133536

Old blues owner to the new blues owner
http://theahl.com/mobile/?bblh=mSafa...le&s=&p=177480

Peoria to vancouver
http://theahl.com/mobile/?bblh=mSafa...le&s=&p=183281

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03-04-2014, 01:53 AM
  #257
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Speed View Post
Umm... no....
The Blues sold their AHL franchise, the Worcester IceCats, to Bruce Saurs and Anne Griffith, co-owners of the Blues ECHL affiliate the Peoria Rivermen. Then they announced that they were moving the franchise from Worcester, Mass. to Peoria, Ill. Effectively the Worcester IceCats became the Peoria Rivermen of the AHL and the ECHL Rivermen ceased to exist. The ECHL Peoria franchise folded. They were sold, and relocated.

And at the time, Blues could NOT have created a new entity because they did not own one anymore - not until 2008.



I see - so if they weren't the same entity and folded like you said - all the players were dispersed and went to other teams? Oh wait - no they didn't - they went to Peoria.



The legal entity once known as the IceCats, Rivermen, Springfield Indians/Kings, Syracuse Warriors, Quebec Beavers still exists as the Utica Comets. That means "legal" to the AHL. Their offices may have shut down in all those cities, but the franchise lived on (except ECHL Peoria - that did fold - and I believe they had to pay a fine for that too).
See, here's the deal, when you sell something you sell the assets. Most of the players contracts either expired or were held by the Blues.

The LEGAL ENTITY for the Ice Cats does not exist anymore. Period. Done. The AHL LICENSE is what is sold. It is just another asset of the former company that owned the rest of the assets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by offkilter View Post
And to add on to you post Speed, here's a list of stories from the American Hockey League's official website firmly establishing that Worcester is the same entity. Nowhere does the league say the team folded, just transfered.

Icecats sale to peoria owners
http://theahl.com/mobile/?bblh=mSafa...le&s=&p=136938

Peoria owners transfer to blues owners
http://theahl.com/mobile/?bblh=mSafa...le&s=&p=133536

Old blues owner to the new blues owner
http://theahl.com/mobile/?bblh=mSafa...le&s=&p=177480

Peoria to vancouver
http://theahl.com/mobile/?bblh=mSafa...le&s=&p=183281
Worcester is not the same entity, it is the same license. HUGE difference. For example, the Atlanta Thrashers were bought by TNSE and moved and the name was changed. The Thrashers do not exist anymore but the NHL license to operate an NHL club that was used by Atlanta still exists.

The same thing occurs in the AHL. The team sells the license to operate to a new legal entity then they fold/dissolve the old legal entity that held the license.

The league will never say a team folded but the team did.

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03-04-2014, 05:16 AM
  #258
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Originally Posted by Tommy Hawk View Post
The Blues shut down the old legal entity that owned the Ice Cats and created a new one. http://www.privco.com/private-compan...en-hockey-club

And more back-up that Peoria was not the same entity as the Ice Cats

The Rivermen moved to the American Hockey League for the 2005-2006 season, before Saurs sold the franchise to the St. Louis Blues in 2008.

Rivermen Article

Peoria Rivermen Hockey Club is a privately-held company that operates in the Hockey Teams - Professional industry. Peoria Rivermen Hockey Club headquarters are located in Peoria, Illinois. Peoria Rivermen Hockey Club operates as a subsidiary of Vancouver Canucks.

This is a bit old but Vancouver owned them and now the Perioa Rivemen Hockey Club entity no longer exists.

So the Ice Cats legal entity no longer existed. Folded, shut down, whatever you want to call it.

And still no one is going to Glens Falls.
The IceCats were owned by the Blues, who then sold them to the Saurs (Rivermen), who then sold them to the Blues, who then sold them to the Canucks (Comets).

The IceCats were wholly owned by the Blues when they played here, and the Blues still exist. I double checked to make sure that was true, and yes, the Blues certainly do exist.

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03-04-2014, 07:56 AM
  #259
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Originally Posted by Tommy Hawk View Post
See, here's the deal, when you sell something you sell the assets. Most of the players contracts either expired or were held by the Blues.

The LEGAL ENTITY for the Ice Cats does not exist anymore. Period. Done. The AHL LICENSE is what is sold. It is just another asset of the former company that owned the rest of the assets.



Worcester is not the same entity, it is the same license. HUGE difference. For example, the Atlanta Thrashers were bought by TNSE and moved and the name was changed. The Thrashers do not exist anymore but the NHL license to operate an NHL club that was used by Atlanta still exists.

The same thing occurs in the AHL. The team sells the license to operate to a new legal entity then they fold/dissolve the old legal entity that held the license.

The league will never say a team folded but the team did.
Why wouldn't they - is it some big conspiracy?

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03-04-2014, 09:16 AM
  #260
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Originally Posted by Tommy Hawk View Post
And still no one is going to Glens Falls.
This, is, sadly, the real point of this thread. the rest of it's just wind.

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03-04-2014, 11:16 AM
  #261
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Originally Posted by Speed View Post
Why wouldn't they - is it some big conspiracy?
Bad for business. The NHL never said Atlanta folded this time nor did they say Quebec or Hartford folded. Back in the day they did say teams folded.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumblick View Post
This, is, sadly, the real point of this thread. the rest of it's just wind.
So true. Personally I think this is why a league like the old IHL could actually work. A 12 or so team league where affiliations can be shared and there is no veteran rule. This would actually benefit both the AHL and the NHL. Cities where there is more competition for the entertainment dollar like Chicago, Milwaukee, etc. can have teams with veterans and more name recognizable players where the AHL can reduce the veterans to one or none and be a 100% development league concentrated in the Northeast.

But this will never happen so I am sad.

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03-04-2014, 12:29 PM
  #262
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Originally Posted by 210 View Post
The IceCats were owned by the Blues, who then sold them to the Saurs (Rivermen), who then sold them to the Blues, who then sold them to the Canucks (Comets).

The IceCats were wholly owned by the Blues when they played here, and the Blues still exist. I double checked to make sure that was true, and yes, the Blues certainly do exist.
And they were NOT owned at all by the Blues at the time they moved to Peoria. Saurs sold the AHL license back to the Blues in 2008.

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03-04-2014, 02:32 PM
  #263
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Originally Posted by Tommy Hawk View Post
And they were NOT owned at all by the Blues at the time they moved to Peoria. Saurs sold the AHL license back to the Blues in 2008.
Ummm, what?

They were "St Louis Blues d/b/a Worcester IceCats" until they day they vacated the offices at the DCU Center.

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03-04-2014, 02:47 PM
  #264
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Ummm, what?

They were "St Louis Blues d/b/a Worcester IceCats" until they day they vacated the offices at the DCU Center.
Yeah but it wasn't the IceCats. Roy Boe owned the IceCats. He "folded" them and then the Blues came in and called the "new" team in Worcester the IceCats.

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03-04-2014, 03:39 PM
  #265
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Yeah but it wasn't the IceCats. Roy Boe owned the IceCats. He "folded" them and then the Blues came in and called the "new" team in Worcester the IceCats.
Ahhh, yes. I forgot about that. It was in all the papers how Boe folded the team and out of the goodness in their hearts the Blues came in and put a new team in its place. It was a great day in our city when that happened.

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03-04-2014, 06:11 PM
  #266
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Bad for business. The NHL never said Atlanta folded this time nor did they say Quebec or Hartford folded. Back in the day they did say teams folded.



So true. Personally I think this is why a league like the old IHL could actually work. A 12 or so team league where affiliations can be shared and there is no veteran rule. This would actually benefit both the AHL and the NHL. Cities where there is more competition for the entertainment dollar like Chicago, Milwaukee, etc. can have teams with veterans and more name recognizable players where the AHL can reduce the veterans to one or none and be a 100% development league concentrated in the Northeast.

But this will never happen so I am sad.
Tommy, you are trying to turn back the clock 15 or 20 years. That would make the "new IHL" a higher caliber league than the current AHL.

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03-04-2014, 07:08 PM
  #267
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i always thought the term folded was used when a team ceased operations mid season. normally when a ahl team isnt being used the parent team can pay a fee and keep it dormant.

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03-08-2014, 01:43 AM
  #268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by go comets View Post
i always thought the term folded was used when a team ceased operations mid season. normally when a ahl team isnt being used the parent team can pay a fee and keep it dormant.
except, go comets, that effectively ended the day Prodigal Hockey, LLC and the Edmonton Oilers reactivated their franchise that had last played during the 2004 NHL Lockout, against the wishes of the AHL BOG, the Toronto/Edmonton Road Runners, played in Edmonton in '04,which had lost its lease @ Ricoh Coliseum, and after the '04 AHL Master Schedule was released flipped to EDM from TOR, when the 1st lockout ended and the Oilers returned, that franchise went dormant until the AHL cajoled the Oilers into reactivating it in OKC as the Barons because the League was ready to possibly terminate the Oilers AHL Affiliate (they had gone through multi year dual affiliations, including a unheard of 5 team split affiliation).

you were allowed to pay a set fee to keep a franchise dormant, but now each team in both leagues now has a 1-1 affiliation. that's why St. Louis sold the original Springfield team that Saurs bought to Vancouver and went to Rosemont, IL, and how Utica returned this season.

that's why we've graduated to the era of trading affiliations and/or franchises to be relocated, not folded.

Vancouver wanted to go to Abbotsford in a trade replacing Calgary but had to settle for buying the Blues AHL Affiliate to bring them to Utica, and your owner, Esche, wanted to own a franchise in Utica.

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03-10-2014, 07:08 PM
  #269
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i always thought the term folded was used when a team ceased operations mid season. normally when a ahl team isnt being used the parent team can pay a fee and keep it dormant.
Nope. Folding is whenever the team no longer exists. Also, the "parent" team has nothing to do with the AHL unless it owns the AHL license under which the team is operated. For example, if Hershey decides to close up shop because they want an NHL team, there is nothing the Caps can do about it. They may be able to buy the license, like Vancounver dd when the owners of the Rivermen decided to fold up the Rivermen Hockey Club just like when the owners of the Ice Cats decided to fold that tent and sell it to Raus.

And still no one is going to GF. Maybe an ECHL license that was turned back to the league is available.

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03-10-2014, 07:15 PM
  #270
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Originally Posted by Tommy Hawk View Post
Nope. Folding is whenever the team no longer exists. Also, the "parent" team has nothing to do with the AHL unless it owns the AHL license under which the team is operated. For example, if Hershey decides to close up shop because they want an NHL team, there is nothing the Caps can do about it. They may be able to buy the license, like Vancounver dd when the owners of the Rivermen decided to fold up the Rivermen Hockey Club just like when the owners of the Ice Cats decided to fold that tent and sell it to Raus.

And still no one is going to GF. Maybe an ECHL license that was turned back to the league is available.
Except that's not true. There is no legitimate news site that calls sports teams that moved as "folded". The last major sports franchise that folded was the NHL's Cleveland Barons in 1978. Since that time there have been many moves of major sports franchises. I think this list is complete:

1979 - New Orleans Jazz moved to Salt lake City
1982 - Okaland Raiders moved to Los Angeles
1984 - Baltamore Colts moved to Indianapolis
1984 - San Diego Clippers moved to Los Angeles
1985 - Kansas City Kings moved to Sacramento
1988 - St Louis Cardinals moved to Tempe, AZ
1993 - Minnesota North Stars moved to Dallas
1995 - Los Angeles Raiders moved to Oakland
1995 - Los Angeles Rams moved to St. Louis
1995 - Quebec Nordiques moved to Denver
1996 - Cleveland browns moved to Baltimore
1996 - Winnipeg Jets moved to Phoenix
1997 - Hartford Whalers moved to Greensboro, North Carolina
1997 - Houston Oilers moved to Memphis
2001 - Vancouver Grizzlies moved to Memphis
2002 - Charlotte Hornets moved to New Orleans
2005 - Montreal Expos moved to Washington, DC
2008 - Seattle Supersonics moved to Oklahoma City
2011 - Atlanta Thrashers moved to Winnipeg
2012 - New Jersey Nets moved to Brooklyn

Is it your position that every single one of these is a team folding? If so, can you please show a couple of legitimate sports websites that claim that these franchises folded as opposed to moved.

Thanks in advance.

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03-11-2014, 01:20 AM
  #271
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Except that's not true. There is no legitimate news site that calls sports teams that moved as "folded". The last major sports franchise that folded was the NHL's Cleveland Barons in 1978. Since that time there have been many moves of major sports franchises. I think this list is complete:

1979 - New Orleans Jazz moved to Salt lake City
1982 - Okaland Raiders moved to Los Angeles
1984 - Baltamore Colts moved to Indianapolis
1984 - San Diego Clippers moved to Los Angeles
1985 - Kansas City Kings moved to Sacramento
1988 - St Louis Cardinals moved to Tempe, AZ
1993 - Minnesota North Stars moved to Dallas
1995 - Los Angeles Raiders moved to Oakland
1995 - Los Angeles Rams moved to St. Louis
1995 - Quebec Nordiques moved to Denver
1996 - Cleveland browns moved to Baltimore
1996 - Winnipeg Jets moved to Phoenix
1997 - Hartford Whalers moved to Greensboro, North Carolina
1997 - Houston Oilers moved to Memphis
2001 - Vancouver Grizzlies moved to Memphis
2002 - Charlotte Hornets moved to New Orleans
2005 - Montreal Expos moved to Washington, DC
2008 - Seattle Supersonics moved to Oklahoma City
2011 - Atlanta Thrashers moved to Winnipeg
2012 - New Jersey Nets moved to Brooklyn

Is it your position that every single one of these is a team folding? If so, can you please show a couple of legitimate sports websites that claim that these franchises folded as opposed to moved.

Thanks in advance.
One simple question - how many of those original legal entities are still in existence?

Answer - NONE. The legal entities that owned those licenses folded, dissolved, etc.

The team folded. Even when the Barons folded the license still existed. The legal entity folded. All of them folded.

And STILL no one is going to GF.

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03-11-2014, 04:09 AM
  #272
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Except that's not true. There is no legitimate news site that calls sports teams that moved as "folded". The last major sports franchise that folded was the NHL's Cleveland Barons in 1978.

Is it your position that every single one of these is a team folding? If so, can you please show a couple of legitimate sports websites that claim that these franchises folded as opposed to moved.
Thanks in advance.
Quote:
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One simple question - how many of those original legal entities are still in existence?

Answer - NONE. The legal entities that owned those licenses folded, dissolved, etc.

The team folded. Even when the Barons folded the license still existed. The legal entity folded. All of them folded.

And STILL no one is going to GF.
Even one would've been nice, but you simply avoided the question.

And your last line's getting tired. we get it - no one's going there for 2014-15. Move on.

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03-11-2014, 05:11 AM
  #273
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Originally Posted by Tommy Hawk View Post
One simple question - how many of those original legal entities are still in existence?

Answer - NONE. The legal entities that owned those licenses folded, dissolved, etc.

The team folded. Even when the Barons folded the license still existed. The legal entity folded. All of them folded.

And STILL no one is going to GF.
So you cannot provide any source to show any legitimate news organization calling those teams as folded?

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03-11-2014, 04:33 PM
  #274
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Why would they? Utica isn't gunna last. The attendance figures haven't been amazing and they have a rink smaller than the ECHL and AHL league average attendances, Now if someone wanted to piss away some cash....sure it would be their choice. Not that many people n Upstate NY though who have cash to just blow away these days. I could see somebody trying the ECHL if they wanted, less of a financial burden but would the fans accept that?

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03-11-2014, 08:24 PM
  #275
Tommy Hawk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 210 View Post
So you cannot provide any source to show any legitimate news organization calling those teams as folded?
I am not going to go looking for some sports articles concerning minor league hockey teams to find something that says they folded. The Ice Cats do not exist. The Phantoms do not exist. The Riverment do not exist. The Iowa Hogs do not exist. The AHL Utah Grizzlies do not exist. The legal entities that owned those teams do not exist. What happened to them? Legal entities cannot just disappear? The get dissolved, folded, go out of business, whatever you want to call it.

The franchise license, the AHL's permission to operate a franchise, NEVER goes away, they just move who has control of it. The only ones that can increase and decrease the license amount is the AHL BOG and technically they folded the Texas Stars. They deleted the license under which they were operating when they acquired the Iowa Hogs license.

I am not going to rely on some sports writers to understand business terms.


Last edited by Guerzy: 03-13-2014 at 09:05 AM. Reason: Stay on topic.
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