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Kypreos and SN panel say they would take Kessel over Ovi

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Old
03-17-2014, 04:16 AM
  #176
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Originally Posted by MastuhNinks View Post
So Ovechkin has marginally better point production (pace of 2 more points per year) despite being used in a sheltered offensive role (huge offensive zone start %, easy matchups, massive PP time), playing with an elite playmaker and being one of the worst forwards in the World defensively. Yeah, I'll take the younger player who makes everyone around him better and puts up equal numbers.

During that time Ovechkin has been on the ice for 76 5 on 5 goals for and 89 goals against. Phil Kessel has been on the ice for 98 5 on 5 goals for and 90 goals against. Kessel has been by far the more productive even strength player, the biggest difference between the two is the fact that Ovechkin has played 553:16 on the powerplay and Phil Kessel has played 377:57 (in more GP).

I understand why someone would take Ovechkin for his godly PP production and incredible goal scoring, but there's nothing ridiculous about taking Kessel who has been just as productive without being put in as ideal of an offensive role.
Wow anyone saying they'd take Kessel over Ovie is a ****ing homer.

Within that comparison, you have Ovie's worst year and Kessel's best year, yet Ovie still has more goals than Kessel by a landslide. And please don't say Kessel is better defensively, neither are defensively responsible and +/- doesn't prove anything. Kessel is 2 years younger, please don't tell me age plays a factor in this. And Ovechkin still leads the league in 5 on 5 goals. So actually, everything you just said is wrong with the exception of who plays better defence because that's subjective.

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03-17-2014, 04:54 AM
  #177
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Let's take leaf and caps fans out of this thread so we can have an actual discussion instead of a middle school shouting match

The answer is ovi is better. Look at their careers as a whole. Kessel can't hold ovis jock strap

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Old
03-17-2014, 04:57 AM
  #178
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Originally Posted by Nazemlupul View Post
That's production, not who would you rather have which factors in age, contract, playoff stats, defensive ability, alll that.
Hilarious

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Old
03-17-2014, 05:06 AM
  #179
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Originally Posted by PsychoDad View Post
How is this even a thread... Oh Kypreos said something stupid? Okay...
It seems that he's not the only one Leaf related to same something stupid concerning this thread.
It's all in the water they drink.


Last edited by jacks: 03-17-2014 at 05:15 AM.
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Old
03-17-2014, 09:13 AM
  #180
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Yeap, I'm in on that group. For the 10> goals you don't get from Kessel is worth it in terms of his somewhat competent defence

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03-17-2014, 09:22 AM
  #181
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Originally Posted by jgoud View Post
Wow anyone saying they'd take Kessel over Ovie is a ****ing homer.

Within that comparison, you have Ovie's worst year and Kessel's best year, yet Ovie still has more goals than Kessel by a landslide. And please don't say Kessel is better defensively, neither are defensively responsible and +/- doesn't prove anything. Kessel is 2 years younger, please don't tell me age plays a factor in this. And Ovechkin still leads the league in 5 on 5 goals. So actually, everything you just said is wrong with the exception of who plays better defence because that's subjective.
I didn't know that goals scored is the only way to possibly measure a player's abilities at even strength. I guess Alex Steen > Sidney Crosby as well. But for your information Corey Perry leads the league in even strength goals, Alex Ovechkin is tied with Phil Kessel for 2nd. The difference of course is that Phil Kessel has 27 even strength assists, good for 10th in the league, whereas Ovechkin has 9, which ties him for 321st in the league.

It's okay though, this is hfboards where when you don't have a leg to stand on, you can simply call somebody names and run away. Or bring up accomplishments from 5+ years ago.
Quote:
Originally Posted by giddy up View Post
Let's take leaf and caps fans out of this thread so we can have an actual discussion instead of a middle school shouting match

The answer is ovi is better. Look at their careers as a whole. Kessel can't hold ovis jock strap
Ironic considering this post contributes zero to the actual discussion. I make a post with actual reasoning and evidence hoping to get into a decent discussion and instead just get attacked and called a homer, with zero attempt to refute what I said.

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Old
03-17-2014, 09:40 AM
  #182
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Anybody who isn't stuck in 2010 should take Kessel over Ovy. He's simply a better player now.

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03-17-2014, 09:46 AM
  #183
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I Imagine that if Ovi was on the leafs, they are still a playoff team.

Kessel on the Caps puts them at Hurricanes/Senators level.

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Old
03-17-2014, 09:48 AM
  #184
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Originally Posted by Newfy IceCapd View Post
Yeap, I'm in on that group. For the 10> goals you don't get from Kessel is worth it in terms of his somewhat competent defence
By this logic, how many players with 10 fewer goals than Kessel are worth more than him because of their vastly superior defense?

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Old
03-17-2014, 09:52 AM
  #185
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Ovi over Kessel, all day and every day. Ovi brings more to any team. Would love to have him on the Jets as we could use a great and consistant goal scorer. Kessel is a very good player but Ovi is elite.

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03-17-2014, 09:55 AM
  #186
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Originally Posted by BruinsBtn View Post
By this logic, how many players with 10 fewer goals than Kessel are worth more than him because of their vastly superior defense?
Not the point, My point being. Kessell actually PLAYS defence. Ovi in a one dimensional player, while kessel is not. Yes Ovi can score, great that awesome. 2010 I would take Ovi over Kessel for sure. But right now I like Phils complete game more then Ovi one zone game

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Old
03-17-2014, 10:07 AM
  #187
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Crazy talk on the crazy train...........the source of this opinion is all I needed to see

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Old
03-17-2014, 10:11 AM
  #188
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How are they not similar to each other??
Kessel actually passes the puck, sets up his teammates...you know not being a total puck hog. And Kessel's defensive game is a lotttt better than Oveckin's

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Old
03-17-2014, 10:13 AM
  #189
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Nick Kypreos. What more a an explanation is needed? No one takes that guy seriously.

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Old
03-17-2014, 10:15 AM
  #190
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Only reason i'm not surprised by this is because of the letters "SN" in the title. Classic leafers.

No way I take Kessel over Ovi.

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Old
03-17-2014, 10:20 AM
  #191
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Kessel actually passes the puck, sets up his teammates...you know not being a total puck hog. And Kessel's defensive game is a lotttt better than Oveckin's
Dude. OV's had four 50 assist seasons. He passes the puck quite well, and he does it frequently. No player who has ever played with him has ever said anything along these lines. You're just plain wrong.

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Old
03-17-2014, 10:21 AM
  #192
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Originally Posted by Blaaah View Post
They're literally the same player..
Not true. They are actually two different players:

http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id...vid=nhl-search

http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id...vid=nhl-search


Although if they were the same player, that would explain why Kessel looks so exhausted all the time..

If you mean they are both very talente offensive players with little interest in defense, then yes.


Last edited by Spazmatic Dan: 03-17-2014 at 10:28 AM.
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03-17-2014, 10:22 AM
  #193
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Defensive play from scoring line forwards (especially from wingers) is way overvalued on here other than for the absolutely top-end guys (who are mostly centers: Datsyuk, Toews, Bergeron, etc.). The goal scoring Ovechkin provides is simply not going to be matched by a typical lower-scoring player due to some additional defensive responsibility. The 5th/6th most important defensive player on the ice (after the goaltender, both defensemen, and the center) isn't going to have enough of an impact in either direction. Even if said player just floats around, someone on the other team is going to have to account for them, so you never get a full powerplay situation out of it.

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Old
03-17-2014, 10:23 AM
  #194
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This is why I'm dreading when Sportsnet takes over hockey coverage. The correct reaction to almost everything that their panellists and "insiders" say is the following:


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Old
03-17-2014, 10:25 AM
  #195
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I don't blame them. At this point in their respective career, I'd rather have Kessel too. And I'm a Habs fan...

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03-17-2014, 10:36 AM
  #196
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Originally Posted by Midnight Judges View Post
Dude. OV's had four 50 assist seasons. He passes the puck quite well, and he does it frequently. No player who has ever played with him has ever said anything along these lines. You're just plain wrong.
Four 50+ assist seasons, 4, 5, 6 and 9 seasons ago.

He has 0.39 assists per game since his last 50+ assist season, or a pace of 32 assists per year.

Phil Kessel has 52 more assists since Ovechkin's last 50+ assist season, and has played at a pace of 48 assists per year. In fact, in the past two seasons (117GP) Phil Kessel has only 3 less assists than what Ovechkin has in the past three seasons (191GP).

Kessel is the better playmaker now (meaning not 5 years ago ) and it's not close.


I mean, Jaromir Jagr has 80+ assist seasons under his belt but that doesn't make him a better playmaker now than, say, Patrick Kane or Claude Giroux. If we evaluate players today based on what they did in 2010, than Dany Heatley is still one of the best goal scorers in the NHL.

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Old
03-17-2014, 10:44 AM
  #197
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I'd rather have Kessel ;/. For the cost of ~10-15 goals you're getting a player who atleast tries to play defense and isn't awful at it. A player who distributes the puck pretty well. And a player who doesn't become a distraction to the team when times get tough (mainly medias fault). Plus I love how everyone just dismisses +-. I know it's not the greatest stat to follow ever but when a player is -31, or a +- is that large you have to think there is something to it. Especially when the caps as a whole are around +- 0. Has a player ever led the league in goals by this much and might end up being the worst +- in league.

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Old
03-17-2014, 10:45 AM
  #198
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Oh please, it's not bias against Russians, it's that he's -31 on a team that's almost even in goals for/against. The only player worse than that in the league is Yakupov and at least the Oilers have like a -50 goal differential.

You have to be a special kind of bad in your own end to put up enough points to be top 10 in the league and still be 2nd worst in the league for +/-.
OK, using that, then as Beauchamp pointed out Kessel is a special kind of bad in this own end with a career -35 and Ovie is a special kinda good with a career +53.

Dont think Kyper, Rogers and Co would promote this angle though.
What do Leaf fans say? Team stat. or indivdual stat.?

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03-17-2014, 10:46 AM
  #199
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Originally Posted by Philadelphia Ducks View Post
I'd rather have Kessel ;/. For the cost of ~10-15 goals you're getting a player who atleast tries to play defense and isn't awful at it. A player who distributes the puck pretty well. And a player who doesn't become a distraction to the team when times get tough (mainly medias fault)
Thank you, high five to you sir

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03-17-2014, 10:47 AM
  #200
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Wow anyone saying they'd take Kessel over Ovie is a ****ing homer.

Within that comparison, you have Ovie's worst year and Kessel's best year, yet Ovie still has more goals than Kessel by a landslide. And please don't say Kessel is better defensively, neither are defensively responsible and +/- doesn't prove anything. Kessel is 2 years younger, please don't tell me age plays a factor in this. And Ovechkin still leads the league in 5 on 5 goals. So actually, everything you just said is wrong with the exception of who plays better defence because that's subjective.
Early in Ovechkin's career he was lights out and deserving to be mentioned in the same breath as Crosby. Over the past 3 years, his point totals and production is almost identical to Phil Kessel's. Phil's production when it matters has been better than Ovi's and you are about 3 times as likely to have a goal scored against you with Ovi on the ice. C'est la vie. Ovi early in his career...hands down winner. Last 3 years, flip a coin.

By the by, Kessel has 53 ES points (3 short of leading the league) to Ovi's 35 (behind Little, Lucic, Schwartz, Perron, Palat, Van R, Ladd etc) .


Last edited by eyeball11: 03-17-2014 at 10:55 AM.
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