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Trade / Roster Speculation Thread XXXII: To Smurf or not to Smurf

View Poll Results: What would you have done?
traded Callahan and picks for MSL 62 46.62%
re-signed Callahan 8 6.02%
traded Callahan for a small package (pick or prospect) 63 47.37%
Voters: 133. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
03-17-2014, 11:24 AM
  #551
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
The poll isn't a good representation here. If those were the 3 options, I would rather have kept him and risked losing him for nothing. Also, we don't know what the other offers were. How many people are there in here who didn't vote because of the poll options like me?

I was active in and read those threads. That wasn't the impression I got. Most knew he would cost too much to be worth it.
You and I had different impressions then. At best, I'd say it was 50/50, but I felt that the majority were in favor of MSL, while also in favor of trading Callahan.

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Originally Posted by Gardner McKay View Post
No. They have been terrible for a long time. Maybe next year is the year they finally turn it around but I won't hold my breath.
They made the playoffs a few years back, so terrible for a long time is a reach. They are also, in my opinion, building up a much better team then us.

Quote:
And you are correct. We have a great supporting cast. That is the reason we won't see a #1 pick.
We don't have a great supporting cast. We have a good one. We have no real #1LW. We have a slug in Nash on the RW. An aged veteran in MSL and a good young player in Zucc. WE have no #1 center. Our best thing is Stepan who's a good #2, but certainly not a #1.

We may not see a #1 pick, but we better start changing the way this organization is run, or we'll be right back to another set of dark age results.

Quote:
My point exactly. As long as we have players like this we do not have a chance of obtaining a #1 overall or close to it. The talk of a #1 pick at this juncture is fantasy.
Also, no one is really (outside of a few) advocating for a complete tank. We're saying rebuild and keep our picks and prospects, instead of trading them for pushing 40 men.

It's not always extremes like you're making it out to be.

And for what it's worth, this team had it's best results over the past 20 years doing exactly what many of us are preaching for.

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03-17-2014, 11:30 AM
  #552
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My impression of the MSL trade was the board being 50/50 on it, more or less.

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03-17-2014, 11:33 AM
  #553
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Originally Posted by Gardner McKay View Post
It sure does sound foolish when you put it like that. You have a unique way of twisting posters words. He said a #1 pick guarantees success. Tell me how my response was wrong?
You're right. I lost context of the conversation. My apologies.

Quote:
I agree with your premise on Chicago. The same thing is happening right now in Colorado. The problem is when you have an elite goaltender and a high level supporting cast you do not come close to a #1 overall pick. To then turn around and bank on it being a franchise savior or guarantee success is also foolish. What do all those teams have in common? Multiple top 3 picks. A solid 3-4 year tank job.
I don't think having an elite goaltender and an (arguably) high level supporting cast gives you license to make terrible moves either. You can have those things in place and still be a lottery team. We've seen that with this team already, as well as others around the league. Anaheim had a much more talented roster in 2012 than we do now, and they wound up with a 6th overall pick who is currently having a major impact on their roster. They didn't try for some magic bullet in order to salvage the season, they simply took their medicine and bounced back soon thereafter.

I don't want this team to tank, but I do want them to stay the course and not try and haphazardly fix everything in a series of poorly planned trades or signings, all in the name of "Lundqvist only has X good years left!" Especially when they just dealt for a 39 year old forward and people claim he still has 3-4+ good years left.

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03-17-2014, 11:33 AM
  #554
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aufheben View Post
My impression of the MSL trade was the board being 50/50 on it, more or less.
Pretty much confirmed by this poll. 54% liked the trade. 46% think there was a better option.

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Old
03-17-2014, 11:37 AM
  #555
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The only guarantee with draft picks is if you don't have any, your chances of getting a player are reduced to 0%. Successful teams in the salary cap era build through the draft.

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03-17-2014, 11:40 AM
  #556
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Originally Posted by aufheben View Post
The only guarantee with draft picks is if you don't have any, your chances of getting a player are reduced to 0%. Successful teams in the salary cap era build through the draft.
I wonder if any team has not had a draft pick in a year. And if so, did they just take the afternoon off?

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03-17-2014, 11:46 AM
  #557
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Trading picks for a win now move is justified IMO when the team is a) already good/great in the prospect department, and b) actually good enough to take the risk, i.e. the Blues trading for Miller & Ott.

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03-17-2014, 11:48 AM
  #558
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I Still see no long-term plan for this organization. It was to build through the draft. That obviously has gone away. Where other organizations make moves for their long-term success and health the Rangers continue to make moves with what seems like blinders on beyond 2 years.

What is this team supposed to be? Speed? Finesse? Size? Goal scoring? Like RB said, it's a hodge-podge of players. The combination doesn't seem to work and it really hasn't for most of the year.

Gorton is on record as saying he likes a bigger more aggressive team. AV is on record as saying that the team to start the season needed to get bigger in order to compete with the teams in the West. They add MSL.

Nash is a shadow of himself right now. The guy creates no contact and isn't driving with his legs. Is he tired? Is he injured?

Richards has been bad. He is a borderline 3rd line Center and has been for over a year.

Where are the players to get this team out of a funk? Where are the players who can will this team to go to another level? They have no heart and soul, follow me, type of players left.

On top of that, Sather traded next years 1st + picks + Callahan for a 38 year old MSL who was on record as saying he was demanding a trade to the Rangers only.

This may be the most frustrated I have been with this team in a long time.

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03-17-2014, 11:50 AM
  #559
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -31- View Post
I wonder if any team has not had a draft pick in a year. And if so, did they just take the afternoon off?
Probably not... try to make some trades not take the afternoon off

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03-17-2014, 11:51 AM
  #560
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYR Viper View Post
I Still see no long-term plan for this organization. It was to build through the draft. That obviously has gone away. Where other organizations make moves for their long-term success and health the Rangers continue to make moves with what seems like blinders on beyond 2 years.

What is this team supposed to be? Speed? Finesse? Size? Goal scoring? Like RB said, it's a hodge-podge of players. The combination doesn't seem to work and it really hasn't for most of the year.

Gorton is on record as saying he likes a bigger more aggressive team. AV is on record as saying that the team to start the season needed to get bigger in order to compete with the teams in the West. They add MSL.

Nash is a shadow of himself right now. The guy creates no contact and isn't driving with his legs. Is he tired? Is he injured?

Richards has been bad. He is a borderline 3rd line Center and has been for over a year.

Where are the players to get this team out of a funk? Where are the players who can will this team to go to another level? They have no heart and soul, follow me, type of players left.

On top of that, Sather traded next years 1st + picks + Callahan for a 38 year old MSL who was on record as saying he was demanding a trade to the Rangers only.

This may be the most frustrated I have been with this team in a long time.
If Gorton had vetoed a St. Louis trade because he wants to get bigger, I would find him and I would kill him.

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03-17-2014, 11:53 AM
  #561
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYR Viper View Post
I Still see no long-term plan for this organization. It was to build through the draft. That obviously has gone away. Where other organizations make moves for their long-term success and health the Rangers continue to make moves with what seems like blinders on beyond 2 years.

What is this team supposed to be? Speed? Finesse? Size? Goal scoring? Like RB said, it's a hodge-podge of players. The combination doesn't seem to work and it really hasn't for most of the year.

Gorton is on record as saying he likes a bigger more aggressive team. AV is on record as saying that the team to start the season needed to get bigger in order to compete with the teams in the West. They add MSL.

Nash is a shadow of himself right now. The guy creates no contact and isn't driving with his legs. Is he tired? Is he injured?

Richards has been bad. He is a borderline 3rd line Center and has been for over a year.

Where are the players to get this team out of a funk? Where are the players who can will this team to go to another level? They have no heart and soul, follow me, type of players left.

On top of that, Sather traded next years 1st + picks + Callahan for a 38 year old MSL who was on record as saying he was demanding a trade to the Rangers only.

This may be the most frustrated I have been with this team in a long time.
And Tampa, who is at least as good as us, and probably has a better future, traded MSL (who they could have kept for 2 more playoff runs) for picks and a UFA.

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03-17-2014, 11:55 AM
  #562
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -31- View Post
If Gorton had vetoed a St. Louis trade because he wants to get bigger, I would find him and I would kill him.
So you like the deal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by aufheben View Post
And Tampa, who is at least as good as us, and probably has a better future, traded MSL (who they could have kept for 2 more playoff runs) for picks and a UFA.
He requested a trade. The relationship between the player and the team was crumbling. Not a good environment.

So you commend the deal? You actually think that's accurate value for MSL after he requests a trade and only wants to go to 1 team?

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03-17-2014, 12:02 PM
  #563
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Originally Posted by NYR Viper View Post
So you like the deal?
Well, yes. But that's not the point.

If Gorton vetoed any deal for an elite scorer because he wanted size, I would feel the same. Even if they were making an effort to get bigger, you don't need size out of every spot in the lineup.

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03-17-2014, 12:06 PM
  #564
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
You're right. I lost context of the conversation. My apologies.



I don't think having an elite goaltender and an (arguably) high level supporting cast gives you license to make terrible moves either. You can have those things in place and still be a lottery team. We've seen that with this team already, as well as others around the league. Anaheim had a much more talented roster in 2012 than we do now, and they wound up with a 6th overall pick who is currently having a major impact on their roster. They didn't try for some magic bullet in order to salvage the season, they simply took their medicine and bounced back soon thereafter.

I don't want this team to tank, but I do want them to stay the course and not try and haphazardly fix everything in a series of poorly planned trades or signings, all in the name of "Lundqvist only has X good years left!" Especially when they just dealt for a 39 year old forward and people claim he still has 3-4+ good years left.
I agree with you. Next year is a wash. We have to succeed since we have no pick. This year we will at worst finish with maybe 10th overall (unless we magically won the lottery which would be very ironic).

Agree with the second part as well. I think that is what Sather did this year, make moves based on his timeline and Lundqvists. This team will tank in a few years regardless. Based on contracts/age on Nash, Girardi, MSL, Lundqvist, etc. Our window will be closed in 4-5 years.

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03-17-2014, 12:09 PM
  #565
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYR Viper View Post

He requested a trade. The relationship between the player and the team was crumbling. Not a good environment.

So you commend the deal? You actually think that's accurate value for MSL after he requests a trade and only wants to go to 1 team?
Tamps still doesn't have to trade him while some GMs like Feaster will just accept garbage for one of their best player, Stevie Y could have easily just hung up the phone and told Sather he is happy to keep a disgruntled MSL.

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03-17-2014, 12:10 PM
  #566
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Originally Posted by AHB View Post
You and I had different impressions then. At best, I'd say it was 50/50, but I felt that the majority were in favor of MSL, while also in favor of trading Callahan.



They made the playoffs a few years back, so terrible for a long time is a reach. They are also, in my opinion, building up a much better team then us.



We don't have a great supporting cast. We have a good one. We have no real #1LW. We have a slug in Nash on the RW. An aged veteran in MSL and a good young player in Zucc. WE have no #1 center. Our best thing is Stepan who's a good #2, but certainly not a #1.

We may not see a #1 pick, but we better start changing the way this organization is run, or we'll be right back to another set of dark age results.



Also, no one is really (outside of a few) advocating for a complete tank. We're saying rebuild and keep our picks and prospects, instead of trading them for pushing 40 men.

It's not always extremes like you're making it out to be.

And for what it's worth, this team had it's best results over the past 20 years doing exactly what many of us are preaching for.
They made the playoffs one year. Compared to their track record, that was an anomaly.

I don't disagree with this point. How long do you want to rebuild for though? Who is your next goaltender going to be? If that was the case then we should have just traded Lundqvist and started over now.

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03-17-2014, 12:10 PM
  #567
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Just to be clear... As the debate rages on about size, are we actually talking about size? Or are we talking about toughness? This team doesn't really lack in the size department... Outside of the kid line (MSL, MZA, Brass) this team actually has size on every line.

Kreider - Nash
Pouliot
Boyle - Carcillo/DD

DD because he plays bigger than he is, as does Carcillo.

Now, if we're talking about AV's definition of toughness as a synonym for size, then yes, we are lacking there. I think, IMO, that's more of a heart/want thing, than a size thing. Sure they go hand in hand, but Boyle has more size then plenty of the guys on Winnipeg, they just fought harder when they didn't have the puck than we do.

Teams can be tough when not having the pure size that some posters are looking for.

Anyway, just wanted to clarify for myself.

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03-17-2014, 12:11 PM
  #568
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYR2047 View Post
Tamps still doesn't have to trade him while some GMs like Feaster will just accept garbage for one of their best player, Stevie Y could have easily just hung up the phone and told Sather he is happy to keep a disgruntled MSL.
That's fine. Let him. re-visit it in the off-season.

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03-17-2014, 12:11 PM
  #569
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silverfish View Post
Just to be clear... As the debate rages on about size, are we actually talking about size? Or are we talking about toughness? This team doesn't really lack in the size department... Outside of the kid line (MSL, MZA, Brass) this team actually has size on every line.

Kreider - Nash
Pouliot
Boyle - Carcillo/DD

DD because he plays bigger than he is, as does Carcillo.

Now, if we're talking about AV's definition of toughness as a synonym for size, then yes, we are lacking there. I think, IMO, that's more of a heart/want thing, than a size thing. Sure they go hand in hand, but Boyle has more size then plenty of the guys on Winnipeg, they just fought harder when they didn't have the puck than we do.

Teams can be tough when not having the pure size that some posters are looking for.

Anyway, just wanted to clarify for myself.
Since the Rangers have size like that I assume when size is mentioned it is in reference to toughness and players that hit, and fight, you know stuff like that

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03-17-2014, 12:12 PM
  #570
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They made the playoffs one year. Compared to their track record, that was an anomaly.

I don't disagree with this point. How long do you want to rebuild for though? Who is your next goaltender going to be? If that was the case then we should have just traded Lundqvist and started over now.
It doesn't always take 5-6 years to rebuild. Sometimes all it takes is a re-shuffling. Look at Anaheim or SJ. You don't need to blow the whole thing up.

People, and not just you Gadner, like to make this a black and white issue, when there is a grey area somewhere in the middle that has seemed to work for a lot of teams.

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03-17-2014, 12:12 PM
  #571
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That's fine. Let him. re-visit it in the off-season.
They could have but with the way the Rangers played before the Olympic break I can understand Sather feeling like if he makes that move then it brings them closer to the Cup

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03-17-2014, 12:13 PM
  #572
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Here's how St. Louis compares to some other high-profile Ranger acquisitions after 7 games:


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03-17-2014, 12:14 PM
  #573
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So you like the deal?



He requested a trade. The relationship between the player and the team was crumbling. Not a good environment.

So you commend the deal? You actually think that's accurate value for MSL after he requests a trade and only wants to go to 1 team?
No, I never thought it was a very good deal for us.

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03-17-2014, 12:14 PM
  #574
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Since the Rangers have size like that I assume when size is mentioned it is in reference to toughness and players that hit, and fight, you know stuff like that
Why does it have to be "toughness" when it could just be players who utilize their size effectively and consistently? Is Chimera a "tough" player? He utilizes his size consistently. And I am not saying go after Chimera just an example.

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03-17-2014, 12:15 PM
  #575
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They could have but with the way the Rangers played before the Olympic break I can understand Sather feeling like if he makes that move then it brings them closer to the Cup
So it was a knee-jerk reaction. What I don't understand is that the rangers were #1 in the NHL the year of the rumored Nash deal. Sather decided to wait. This year they are a borderline playoff team in a very weak Eastern Conference and they decide to pull the trigger on adding a 38 year old MSL. Huh?

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