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Old
02-07-2014, 04:37 PM
  #676
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The D is going to be hard to improve through a trade for an impending UFA.

MacDonald, Russell, Nikitin, Gilbert and Klesla are likely the best guys who could possibly be available in that manner. (and Nikitin and Klesla may not be moved due to teams being close to playoff picture.)

Just look:

http://www.capgeek.com/ufa-finder/?r...&position_id=D

Then there are the assets the Flyers could move without suffering unduly (if something could be acquired back):

Trade Grossmann for a 2nd + a later pick (4th-6th depending on bidding)

Trade Downie for a late 1st or 2nd + 3rd/4th. (I imagine a contender would pay that for him... good contract when a lot of teams are close to cap, gritty guy who can play anywhere in middle 6)

Trade Mez for whatever you can... say a 3rd or 4th (possibly have to retain some salary I imagine.)

The combination of the two is not great... MacDonald, Nikitin and Russell are probably the only upgrades, and then still, they are more mobile #4s instead of a defensively sound, traffic cone #5. (MacDonald has played like a #3 though last year and the year before, is a good PKer, but has a lot of questions.)

If MacDonald thinks he is getting 5mill as well he can **** off... 4 mill as a 2nd pair guy maybe.

Instead it is probably better to wait and hope some of Boyle, Markov, Girardi and Niskanen make it. Trade maybe Downie and Mez for picks at the deadline and use a 2nd or 3rd to trade for right to negotiate for your fave one before they hit UFA full on.

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Old
02-07-2014, 08:44 PM
  #677
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JDinklage Morgoone View Post
What does his draft pick have anything to do with how he plays? Thomas Hickey was a #4 draft pick and has been pretty bad. After they're drafted, their draft position means nothing.

Luke is what he is. And honestly, unless you're Zdeno Chara or Chris Pronger etc, your partner is going to effect your play. Luke is no different.
The only reason it matters at all is if you have an inflated value for Schenn.
Schenn to me is an okay defender, but nothing special at his cap cost.
The Flyers need to upgrade their defensive team speed.
Schenn's skating ability is poor in comparison to MacDonald.
I would rather have MacDonald than Schenn at a 4M cap cost.

Both Schenn and Grossman are slower skaters making them expendable if a better option is available.

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02-20-2014, 03:14 PM
  #678
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Meltzer: What jvr does is no reflection on schenn

Meltzer's thoughts today on the JVR and L Schenn debate.

Time to kick up some dust...

Not crazy about the polarizing classifications with respect to Flyers "fandom." I don't deny those characterizations are non-existent but while I agree that what JVR does in not a reflection on Schenn, I do think that it is a reflection on the GM. I think it is a fair point and that is more my contention in this debate.

It's the GM's job not to undervalue his assets as he clearly did with JVR by "selling low" and as a result not maximizing your return which many of us said Holmgren didn't do... including myself. Also, I noted in one of my initial posts at the time of the trade how I didn't feel Luke's improved 1st pass and right handed shot was enough..I wanted a more mobile PMD especially after letting Carle walk. Additionally, the 1 for 1 trade was definitely not enough (hence the selling low characterization).

Seems Bill agrees....

Sure we can move on and focus on what the current team needs to do to contend with Luke Schenn being an integral part....but Bill should know better that it's not that easy especially since this is not a one-off that the Flyers have given up on players that have gone on to flourish elsewhere. Couple JVR with how Bob was handled and how Bryz was really a catalyst for a lot of the missteps that followed the complete trip up that was his signing....well it becomes a bit more understandable to understand some of the more measured gripes associated with the Schenn and JVR trade....

Having said all this....wish JVR and the US team all the luck in the world...but definitely don't wish the Leafs the same!

Quote:
For some, the success that van Riemsdyk has enjoyed for Team USA at the Olympics in Sochi has, for some, reopened the debate from two summers ago about the wisdom of the Flyers sending JVR to Toronto in the one-for-one trade for Schenn.

From day one, I understood why the Flyers made the trade. They wanted to address their blueline, adding a righthanded stick to the defense corps (something they lacked and the New Jersey Devils exploited in their forechecking strategies during the 2012 Eastern Conference Semifinals) and get a young defenseman who could eat minutes.

Personally, I would have rather seen the Flyers add another puck mover to the mix, especially when they ended up losing Matt Carle to unrestricted free agency that summer. I also thought the Flyers were selling low on JVR, who was coming off a poor year that was basically ruined by a series of significant injuries (a torn oblique muscle, a concussion, a broken foot and a nagging hip problem). Of course, the Leafs were also selling low on Schenn, a player who had once been touted as a potential elite shutdown defender.

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Bill-...-More/45/58105


Last edited by FreshPerspective: 02-20-2014 at 03:24 PM.
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Old
03-17-2014, 09:14 AM
  #679
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Am I the only one who thought that Luke Schenn had a terrific weekend? He looks much more comfortable with MacDonald he isn't just dumping the puck around the boards or quickly getting rid of it, he seems more confident. Especially on that stretch pass to Vinny(I think it was Vinny, regardless it was from the middle of our zone to the penguins blue line tape to tape). He was very noticeable in both games, he was playing like the player we traded JVR for.

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03-17-2014, 09:31 AM
  #680
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Not bad for a bust/AHL defenseman/guy who can't play any more, etc. etc.

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03-17-2014, 09:55 AM
  #681
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I thought he played very well agianst the Pens in both games. I look forward to a Schenn-MacD pairing if he is resigned. God knows Gus won't even get a chance.

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03-17-2014, 10:38 AM
  #682
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Fans tend to be impatient with young players, and we know defensemen take longer to develop than wingers who focus on offense. It's not surprising that a young defenseman would settle down when paired with a smart poised veteran like McDonald.

The other thing that people forget is they're still learning Berube's system on the fly, it takes time to completely do a 180 and go from an attack system to a defensive responsibility scheme, and the defensemen have been the scapegoats at times for forwards failing to get back.

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03-17-2014, 10:40 AM
  #683
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I dont know why people keep bring up the JVR for Schenn trade its a done deal i closed the book on this one along time ago.

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03-17-2014, 10:49 AM
  #684
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WelcomeToGirouxSalem View Post
Am I the only one who thought that Luke Schenn had a terrific weekend? He looks much more comfortable with MacDonald he isn't just dumping the puck around the boards or quickly getting rid of it, he seems more confident. Especially on that stretch pass to Vinny(I think it was Vinny, regardless it was from the middle of our zone to the penguins blue line tape to tape). He was very noticeable in both games, he was playing like the player we traded JVR for.
Yep, it was Vinny.


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Old
03-17-2014, 11:10 AM
  #685
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You really have to wonder what Berube and Homer were thinking trotting Mesz out there game after game. I know they got a 2nd/3rd for him but what a difference in Schenn when he is out there with Gus/McD. He looks so much more confident both offensively and defensively.

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Old
03-17-2014, 11:50 AM
  #686
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BleedOrange View Post
I dont know why people keep bring up the JVR for Schenn trade its a done deal i closed the book on this one along time ago.
Schenn is turning out to be a decent defenseman, but that's a trade a decent segment of the board was against at the time and for good reason.

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Old
03-17-2014, 11:57 AM
  #687
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Quote:
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Yep, it was Vinny.

That's about as good as a pass can get if you ask me, not as long as I thought it was but still.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Go For It View Post
Schenn is turning out to be a decent defenseman, but that's a trade a decent segment of the board was against at the time and for good reason.
I mean on paper it was a trade that was relatively equal, it filled the needs for each team: two players that have good potential that haven't fully shown what they're capable of.

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03-17-2014, 11:57 AM
  #688
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Originally Posted by Go For It View Post
Schenn is turning out to be a decent defenseman, but that's a trade a decent segment of the board was against at the time and for good reason.
It's fine that he's decent ...still doesn't change the fact that the Flyers undersold JVR and assessed Schenn as something more than decent...(i.e. an Adam Foote type).

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03-17-2014, 12:05 PM
  #689
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WelcomeToGirouxSalem View Post
That's about as good as a pass can get if you ask me, not as long as I thought it was but still.



I mean on paper it was a trade that was relatively equal, it filled the needs for each team: two players that have good potential that haven't fully shown what they're capable of.
There were for sure people who were against (mainly because they wanted JVR to be in a package for like Keith Yandle or something) but I don't think anyone was as vehemntly against trading "future hall of famer" James van Riemsdyk, as many appear to be now.

Either way, this trade has absolutely 0 to do with Luke Schenn the player becuase Luke Schenn the player did not make the trade.

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03-17-2014, 12:07 PM
  #690
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Schenn has a very underrated first past, IMO. He'll never be a true puck moving type of defensemen, due to his lack of mobility, but you can see when he has a partner like MacDonald or Gustaffson that open up the ice for him a bit, his puck skills are not nonexistent.

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03-17-2014, 01:15 PM
  #691
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Luke's looked great the last couple of games, we need him and MacD to stay hot into the playoffs (hopefully we get there).

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03-17-2014, 02:14 PM
  #692
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Funf View Post
Schenn has a very underrated first past, IMO. He'll never be a true puck moving type of defensemen, due to his lack of mobility, but you can see when he has a partner like MacDonald or Gustaffson that open up the ice for him a bit, his puck skills are not nonexistent.
His giveaways per minute has always been pretty good... his first pass and pass accuracy are good IMO.

He is looking like he did in his first year again; (well... basically as he has in every game not paired with Mez since we got him) a 2nd pairing shut down guy who plays simple hockey in his own end.

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03-17-2014, 02:49 PM
  #693
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Vinny scored playing in the ... center.

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04-26-2014, 04:54 PM
  #694
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1 goal, plus 1, 9 shots, no penalties, averaging just under 18 min a game, all while getting bit by Derek Dorsett.


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04-26-2014, 07:21 PM
  #695
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People complain about luke having no offensive upside. But the other game he had 5 shots. They were all good shots he has been contributing offensively, not giving the puck away and his hands look pretty good. In my opinion he has been our best D man in the playoffs so far. Macdonald as well but he looked shaky last game.

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04-26-2014, 09:40 PM
  #696
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People complain about luke having no offensive upside. But the other game he had 5 shots. They were all good shots he has been contributing offensively, not giving the puck away and his hands look pretty good. In my opinion he has been our best D man in the playoffs so far. Macdonald as well but he looked shaky last game.
That's because the only thing he does in the offensive zone is shoot. It's a safe-ish play that beats turning the puck over and can occasionally lead to a goal, but it will only get him so far.

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04-27-2014, 01:59 AM
  #697
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That's because the only thing he does in the offensive zone is shoot. It's a safe-ish play that beats turning the puck over and can occasionally lead to a goal, but it will only get him so far.
That's all we ask of him in the offensive zone. We just want him to work on actual D play more.

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04-27-2014, 09:26 AM
  #698
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Originally Posted by Appleyard View Post
The D is going to be hard to improve through a trade for an impending UFA.

MacDonald, Russell, Nikitin, Gilbert and Klesla are likely the best guys who could possibly be available in that manner. (and Nikitin and Klesla may not be moved due to teams being close to playoff picture.)

Just look:

http://www.capgeek.com/ufa-finder/?r...&position_id=D

Then there are the assets the Flyers could move without suffering unduly (if something could be acquired back):

Trade Grossmann for a 2nd + a later pick (4th-6th depending on bidding)

Trade Downie for a late 1st or 2nd + 3rd/4th. (I imagine a contender would pay that for him... good contract when a lot of teams are close to cap, gritty guy who can play anywhere in middle 6)

Trade Mez for whatever you can... say a 3rd or 4th (possibly have to retain some salary I imagine.)

The combination of the two is not great... MacDonald, Nikitin and Russell are probably the only upgrades, and then still, they are more mobile #4s instead of a defensively sound, traffic cone #5. (MacDonald has played like a #3 though last year and the year before, is a good PKer, but has a lot of questions.)

If MacDonald thinks he is getting 5mill as well he can **** off... 4 mill as a 2nd pair guy maybe.

Instead it is probably better to wait and hope some of Boyle, Markov, Girardi and Niskanen make it. Trade maybe Downie and Mez for picks at the deadline and use a 2nd or 3rd to trade for right to negotiate for your fave one before they hit UFA full on.





I actually like the signing, but it will be hard to improve the defense in the near future. We need Gostisbehere, Hagg, Morin, Alt, etc... to make the jump and succeed in a big way.

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04-27-2014, 09:29 AM
  #699
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I actually like the signing, but it will be hard to improve the defense in the near future. We need Gostisbehere, Hagg, Morin, Alt, etc... to make the jump and succeed in a big way.
I think the Flyers are going to start involving the kids in the lineup from here on out. Ghost has the best chance, with Morin being the next IMO. Hagg will get another season either in the AHL or back in Sweden then I think he might be ready for a bottom pairing job.

In two years I could see

Morin-Coburn
Streit-Macdonald
Ghost-Hagg/Schenn

I still think a trade or two will happen though and this probably has 1% chance of happening.

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04-27-2014, 09:31 AM
  #700
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I actually like the signing, but it will be hard to improve the defense in the near future. We need Gostisbehere, Hagg, Morin, Alt, etc... to make the jump and succeed in a big way.
Yeh, I like it as well... he was pretty much the best option available... and while I do think the money is too much it is pretty much market value atm.

The 5mill is easier to swallow without a No trade clause...

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