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Old
03-18-2014, 01:18 PM
  #326
glenngineer
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Originally Posted by PredsV82 View Post
while true a modicum of perspective is indicated. first it must be remembered that the NHL has been giving 16 playoff berths even when there were only 21 teams in the league.

San Jose made the playoffs in their 3rd and 4th years but didn't actually have a winning record for a season until their NINTH year.

it took them 12 seasons to tech the conference finals and they still haven't won a conference title.

Ottawa had their first winning season in year 6, made the conference finals in year 11, and won the conference in year 14

Anaheim had a winning season in year 4, but only made the playoffs three times in their first 11 years.

and while they did play in two SC finals, winning one, they have only made the playoffs in 9 of their 19 seasons.


Tampa has been even more up and down. One winning season in their first ten years of existence, then a 4 year period where they made the playoffs every year and won a cup but then only one playoff appearance in the next 6 years.
So they've made the playoffs half of their existence, making it to the Finals twice and winning once. We've made it to the playoffs about the same amount yet flamed out in round 1 numerous times and twice in round 2. I think they may not be the team to use as an example. I'll take their success rate any day of the week. They also have some guys that I'd go pay to watch.

Your other points were good with the other teams for what it's worth.

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Old
03-18-2014, 01:46 PM
  #327
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Originally Posted by RaiderDoug View Post
We keep blowing up the team and rebuilding - yet we never actually get anywhere.

I go back to my point - are DP/Trotz not doing the same things over and over and over again that didn't work in 2005-06, they didn't work in 2011-12, and they're probably not going to work again.
I'm not sure how you can honestly say that. We were an expansion team, so we had our first 5 or so expansion growing years. Put down a foundation, added some key pieces, made POs but no wins, had Liarpold dismantling.

Rebuilt team, this time with parts we mostly grew ourselves and added more peripheral types to the mix. Made POs, won a little, had the melt-down in Phoenix, and blew up the group.

Now, we rebuilding again, and they look to have done pretty well with the D.

I've said more than once I think GMDP needs to be held accountable for the fiasco that took place and followed with the Phoenix mess and the signing process for The Captain and cryin' ryan. However, your point that they've proven they can't make progress doesn't seem to square with the events.

I agree with not being satisfied with the overall results but I think the argument to make is they can't keep it together long enough to make more progress; that's on GMDP.

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03-18-2014, 01:48 PM
  #328
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I guess my answer to a lot of this would be, Poile and Trotz are obviously NOT doing the same things they did before. Yeah, they're shipping off some veterans and getting younger, but not the same way they used to. We aren't talking about prospects like Halischuk and Spaling; we're talking about Forsberg and Jarnkrok, both of whom are projected to be top-six forwards and Forsberg has legitimate top-three potential. I think it's obvious that Poile feels like the defense is set for a good long time and is focusing on the offense.

I mean, he has flat-out said that the offense has to be improved. He's making moves to pick up legitimate high-end forward prospects that should be NHL-ready as the defensive group starts to come into their prime. I just don't see what else anybody could be doing. This team isn't a veteran player or two away from contention. They're building toward a long-term window of opportunity. To that end they should be adding as many high-end forward prospects as possible ... which seems to be just what Poile is doing.

I guess my confusion is that I don't see exactly what some new GM/coach combination would be doing differently. He turned Legwand into a forward prospect that should be at least as good offensively and much younger. He turned Erat into a forward prospect that should be much BETTER offensively and is much younger. He's trading off vets to get talented young prospects. Smith seems to have a light turning on in his head finally. Wilson has looked good at center since being moved over and earning the coaching staff's trust. I feel like this team is about a year away from starting to climb up the standings, and like the pieces could be there to be a VERY good team in a couple of years.

So what exactly is the problem?

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Old
03-18-2014, 02:01 PM
  #329
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Originally Posted by MrJoshua View Post
We aren't talking about prospects like Halischuk and Spaling; we're talking about Forsberg and Jarnkrok, both of whom are projected to be top-six forwards and Forsberg has legitimate top-three potential. I think it's obvious that Poile feels like the defense is set for a good long time and is focusing on the offense.
Remember when we couldn't wait to watch our new high end offensive guy who was finally going to be a home-grown scoring threat. His name was Colin Wilson. A few years before that, our savior was going to be Alex Radulov.

We're always waiting for that next big time forward to come through the system. Unfortunately, he's always a couple of years away and never actually gets here.



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I mean, he has flat-out said that the offense has to be improved.
How many years has this been a problem?

13 of our 15 years?

How many more years will this be a problem?

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Originally Posted by MrJoshua View Post

I guess my confusion is that I don't see exactly what some new GM/coach combination would be doing differently.
You think that DP/Trotz are the only people who can possibly get us out of this mess?

But then don't you have to wonder under whose leadership did we get into this mess in the first place?

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Originally Posted by MrJoshua View Post

I feel like this team is about a year away from starting to climb up the standings, and like the pieces could be there to be a VERY good team in a couple of years.
We've had 2 very good teams in the past.

They failed to win more than 1 game in the 2nd round. One didn't even make it there.

If we develop top line offensive prospects - which the track record doesn't support - what in the past 15 years makes you think this coaching staff can get them past the 2nd round if we get there?

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03-18-2014, 02:02 PM
  #330
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Originally Posted by deanwormer View Post
I'm not sure how you can honestly say that. We were an expansion team, so we had our first 5 or so expansion growing years. Put down a foundation, added some key pieces, made POs but no wins, had Liarpold dismantling.

Rebuilt team, this time with parts we mostly grew ourselves and added more peripheral types to the mix. Made POs, won a little, had the melt-down in Phoenix, and blew up the group.

Now, we rebuilding again, and they look to have done pretty well with the D.

I've said more than once I think GMDP needs to be held accountable for the fiasco that took place and followed with the Phoenix mess and the signing process for The Captain and cryin' ryan. However, your point that they've proven they can't make progress doesn't seem to square with the events.

I agree with not being satisfied with the overall results but I think the argument to make is they can't keep it together long enough to make more progress; that's on GMDP.
How many times are you going to allow them to rebuild, and then watch it fall apart?

And progress is subjective. This is a league where more than 50% of the teams make the playoffs - it's harder to miss them than to make them. So other than our first time - I don't consider making the playoffs progress.

I consider that we had 2 really great teams in the past decade - and both teams ended with very disappointing playoff losses with poor playoff performances to teams that folks might consider inferior (considering the regular season records).


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Old
03-18-2014, 02:16 PM
  #331
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Originally Posted by RaiderDoug View Post
Remember when we couldn't wait to watch our new high end offensive guy who was finally going to be a home-grown scoring threat. His name was Colin Wilson. A few years before that, our savior was going to be Alex Radulov.

We're always waiting for that next big time forward to come through the system. Unfortunately, he's always a couple of years away and never actually gets here.
...and Wilson seems to be rounding into shape, while Radulov turned out to be a headcase. Oh no! They missed on a prospect! (One who, to be fair, did have incredible offensive skills.) The horror! The calamity!

What magical GM are you going to summon who never misses on a prospect?


Quote:
How many years has this been a problem?

13 of our 15 years?

How many more years will this be a problem?
It's always going to be a problem. The same way defense and goaltending is always going to be a problem. If it wasn't always a problem you wouldn't need a GM, and nobody would ever make trades. That's how this works.

Quote:

You think that DP/Trotz are the only people who can possibly get us out of this mess?

But then don't you have to wonder under whose leadership did we get into this mess in the first place?
Not at all. I just don't look around the league and see many names of people I think would actually do a better job.

Quote:
We've had 2 very good teams in the past.

They failed to win more than 1 game in the 2nd round. One didn't even make it there.

If we develop top line offensive prospects - which the track record doesn't support - what in the past 15 years makes you think this coaching staff can get them past the 2nd round if we get there?
Yeah, that's how this goes. Every year, TWENTY-NINE teams in the league flame out and fail. Every. Single. Year. This management team managed to build from an expansion team to a contender. When ownership said to blow it up so they could bail, this same management team turned things around quickly and rebuilt to contending status on the back of two Norris-caliber defenders and a top-three goaltender. It just so happened that one of those defenders decided to jump ship, and the goalie had a hip problem and then an infection. That led to a couple of down years. Some of the core got older.

Now that management team is rebuilding again. You see how this works? It's cyclical. The back end pieces are in place. Now they just need young, talented forwards to build the offense around. Oh, wait - they've been making trades to get some of those.

Name one thing you think another GM would be doing that Poile just refuses to do because of incompetence, nervousness, age, or whatever other liability you've assigned to him in your head. Because there's a reason he's one of the most respected GMs in the game, and it isn't because a bunch of fans know more about hockey and how to build a team.

Simmer down and be patient. If you want to get rid of him, fine. Just be prepared for more of the same once another GM gets here, because the path forward is pretty well laid out at this point.

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Old
03-18-2014, 02:37 PM
  #332
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Originally Posted by MrJoshua View Post
...and Wilson seems to be rounding into shape, while Radulov turned out to be a headcase. Oh no! They missed on a prospect! (One who, to be fair, did have incredible offensive skills.) The horror! The calamity!

What magical GM are you going to summon who never misses on a prospect?
Then why are you so confident that Jarnkrok and Forsberg will develop into the guys that we hope they will be.

Maybe DP missed on them too?

Remember, one of these prospects went for 20 games of David Legwand and the other went for a disgruntled Martin Erat.

And then what?

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Originally Posted by MrJoshua View Post

It's always going to be a problem. The same way defense and goaltending is always going to be a problem. If it wasn't always a problem you wouldn't need a GM, and nobody would ever make trades. That's how this works.
I never questioned thier ability to develop goaltenders and defense. But you need more than that to win.

Teams like ours aren't built to go deep in the playoffs. Our team doesn't even make the playoffs anymore.

Our forwards have been a problem for most of our existence. If Jarknrok and Forsberg - two iffy prospects, don't hit the jackpot - what then?

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Originally Posted by MrJoshua View Post

Yeah, that's how this goes. Every year, TWENTY-NINE teams in the league flame out and fail. Every. Single. Year. This management team managed to build from an expansion team to a contender. When ownership said to blow it up so they could bail, this same management team turned things around quickly and rebuilt to contending status on the back of two Norris-caliber defenders and a top-three goaltender. It just so happened that one of those defenders decided to jump ship, and the goalie had a hip problem and then an infection. That led to a couple of down years. Some of the core got older.

Now that management team is rebuilding again. You see how this works? It's cyclical. The back end pieces are in place. Now they just need young, talented forwards to build the offense around. Oh, wait - they've been making trades to get some of those.
I'm all about cycles of winning and losing. Rebuilding's not bad if you have something to hang your hat on.

But we don't have cycles.

We have the same mediocre hockey over and over again. Not really bad. Not really good either. And not even much entertaining to boot.

If you told me this was a temporary down cycle - but that better days are definately ahead - I could buy it.

But when the crest of the wave is a 2nd round blowout loss to the Phoenix Coyotes - I think we're doing something wrong.




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Originally Posted by MrJoshua View Post

Name one thing you think another GM would be doing that Poile just refuses to do because of incompetence, nervousness, age, or whatever other liability you've assigned to him in your head. Because there's a reason he's one of the most respected GMs in the game, and it isn't because a bunch of fans know more about hockey and how to build a team.

Simmer down and be patient. If you want to get rid of him, fine. Just be prepared for more of the same once another GM gets here, because the path forward is pretty well laid out at this point.
I have no idea how to build an NHL team. But that doesn't mean I don't know what mediocre results look like.

Go back to the Avalanche - someone decided to take a shot with Sakic and Roy - and look what happened. They could have stuck with Sherman and Sacco.

You say the path is pretty well laid out - but how are you so sure it's going to lead where you want it to go?

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Old
03-18-2014, 03:06 PM
  #333
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Not to be Debbie Downer but I just watched the NHL Life Episode 7: A coaches life featuring our own Barry Trotz. I have been on the replace Coach Trotz for a while, after watching this it brings a human side out for me. We can sit here and say fire him or fire him, but we forget that these are people that have lives and families.

Now I am not saying we should not consider firing Trotz but it does make me think more about how this not only affects Nashville but someone who has been a part of this Organization for over 15 years and there family life.

I just thought it was a very good video.

Here is the link: Trotz

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Old
03-18-2014, 03:13 PM
  #334
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Originally Posted by weeze View Post
Not to be Debbie Downer but I just watched the NHL Life Episode 7: A coaches life featuring our own Barry Trotz. I have been on the replace Coach Trotz for a while, after watching this it brings a human side out for me. We can sit here and say fire him or fire him, but we forget that these are people that have lives and families.

Now I am not saying we should not consider firing Trotz but it does make me think more about how this not only affects Nashville but someone who has been a part of this Organization for over 15 years and there family life.

I just thought it was a very good video.

Here is the link: Trotz
He just plays the hand that he's been dealt ... I think that goes up to the top, but the Phoenix series makes me re-think that they should be allowed back

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Old
03-18-2014, 03:38 PM
  #335
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Originally Posted by weeze View Post
Not to be Debbie Downer but I just watched the NHL Life Episode 7: A coaches life featuring our own Barry Trotz. I have been on the replace Coach Trotz for a while, after watching this it brings a human side out for me. We can sit here and say fire him or fire him, but we forget that these are people that have lives and families.

Now I am not saying we should not consider firing Trotz but it does make me think more about how this not only affects Nashville but someone who has been a part of this Organization for over 15 years and there family life.

I just thought it was a very good video.

Here is the link: Trotz
I read an article on that as well.

I've come across as very anti-Trotz/DP, but actually, i'm kind of on the fence. I just don't agree with the idea that no one could ever do better, or that they should have some sort of lifetime contract. I'd be ok with a couple of more years, but if we don't become a real contender sooner rather than later - it's time for someone else.

Unfortunately, you don't get points in the standings for being a nice guy.

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03-18-2014, 03:54 PM
  #336
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Originally Posted by RaiderDoug View Post
I read an article on that as well.

I've come across as very anti-Trotz/DP, but actually, i'm kind of on the fence. I just don't agree with the idea that no one could ever do better, or that they should have some sort of lifetime contract. I'd be ok with a couple of more years, but if we don't become a real contender sooner rather than later - it's time for someone else.

Unfortunately, you don't get points in the standings for being a nice guy.
I think you would be hard pressed to find anyone on the board that would actually argue either of those points. Surely there's enough to debate already without needing to exaggerate the nature of the arguments?

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03-18-2014, 04:08 PM
  #337
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Originally Posted by weeze View Post
Not to be Debbie Downer but I just watched the NHL Life Episode 7: A coaches life featuring our own Barry Trotz. I have been on the replace Coach Trotz for a while, after watching this it brings a human side out for me. We can sit here and say fire him or fire him, but we forget that these are people that have lives and families.

Now I am not saying we should not consider firing Trotz but it does make me think more about how this not only affects Nashville but someone who has been a part of this Organization for over 15 years and there family life.

I just thought it was a very good video.

Here is the link: Trotz
I have a hard time feeling really sorry if a guy making millions a year has to find another job.

All of us normal people are under microscopes daily and sometimes victims of nothing more than numbers.

Why is Trotz above that?

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03-18-2014, 04:46 PM
  #338
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Originally Posted by RaiderDoug View Post
We have the same mediocre hockey over and over again. Not really bad. Not really good either.
I don't disagree with some of the comments in your post. But the quoted part above are the kinds of comments that drive me crazy on this board.

If you are saying that all we ever have here is "mediocre" hockey then I strongly disagree with that. Since 2005, here are the wins and total points for the Predators: (full seasons only).

2005-06 49/106
2006-07 51/110
2007-08 41/91
2008-09 40/88
2009-10 47/100
2010-11 44/99
2011-12 48/104

Our average for those 7 years is 46 wins and 100 points.

You call that "mediocre"?? You think that is "not really good"??

Have we underachieved in the playoffs? Yes, absolutely- we had at least 2 teams that should have gone farther. But the playoffs are a total crapshoot and you have to be lucky and good. (And as painful as it was to have a 110 point team knocked out in the first round, people seem to forget that we lost to a 107 point team- it was pretty much a toss up series).

Yes, we are now in the 2nd year of a down cycle, no disputing that- but if you told me right now that starting next year we would have a 7 year run just like the 2005-2011 run we had, I would take it in a heartbeat and take my chances in the playoffs.


I want more playoff success as much as anyone. I understand that professional sports is all about winning championships, but regular season success also means something

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03-18-2014, 05:00 PM
  #339
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I don't disagree with some of the comments in your post. But the quoted part above are the kinds of comments that drive me crazy on this board.

If you are saying that all we ever have here is "mediocre" hockey then I strongly disagree with that. Since 2005, here are the wins and total points for the Predators: (full seasons only).

2005-06 49/106
2006-07 51/110
2007-08 41/91
2008-09 40/88
2009-10 47/100
2010-11 44/99
2011-12 48/104

Our average for those 7 years is 46 wins and 100 points.

You call that "mediocre"?? You think that is "not really good"??

Have we underachieved in the playoffs? Yes, absolutely- we had at least 2 teams that should have gone farther. But the playoffs are a total crapshoot and you have to be lucky and good. (And as painful as it was to have a 110 point team knocked out in the first round, people seem to forget that we lost to a 107 point team- it was pretty much a toss up series).

Yes, we are now in the 2nd year of a down cycle, no disputing that- but if you told me right now that starting next year we would have a 7 year run just like the 2005-2011 run we had, I would take it in a heartbeat and take my chances in the playoffs.


I want more playoff success as much as anyone. I understand that professional sports is all about winning championships, but regular season success also means something
I disagree that we've accomplished anything.

100 points is not the accomplishment it once was with the invention of the 3 point game. Usually anywhere between 9-11 teams score 100 points a year these days.

In 2009/10 - 11 teams reached 100 points. That's over 30% of the entire league!


This is still a league where over half the teams make the playoffs. So that's no great feat either.

We don't have a single division banner

Crowing about regular season success is like celebrating a participation trophy


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03-18-2014, 05:21 PM
  #340
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I think you would be hard pressed to find anyone on the board that would actually argue either of those points. Surely there's enough to debate already without needing to exaggerate the nature of the arguments?
People have advanced arguments that there's no one around the league that they'd rather have. Or that no matter who we replace anyone with, we're headed off a cliff- so that's not hyperbole.

Lifetime contracts - maybe hyperbole. Yet when I ask folks how many more years in order to get a deep playoff run, I rarely get an answer.


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03-18-2014, 05:44 PM
  #341
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...
Simmer down and be patient.
And pony up another 25k for 4-5 years of crap waiting for Barry Trotz to 2-way-develop THESE new players to a couple years of first-round-exit immortality.

How many hundreds of players have come and gone for Barry to fiddle lines with? Barry's playtime is and has been over. Time to move beyond nursery school. Maybe we can donate Trotz to a new expansion team where he can be useful.

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03-18-2014, 06:26 PM
  #342
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Remember when we couldn't wait to watch our new high end offensive guy who was finally going to be a home-grown scoring threat. His name was Colin Wilson. A few years before that, our savior was going to be Alex Radulov.

We're always waiting for that next big time forward to come through the system. Unfortunately, he's always a couple of years away and never actually gets here.





How many years has this been a problem?

13 of our 15 years?

How many more years will this be a problem?



You think that DP/Trotz are the only people who can possibly get us out of this mess?

But then don't you have to wonder under whose leadership did we get into this mess in the first place?



We've had 2 very good teams in the past.

They failed to win more than 1 game in the 2nd round. One didn't even make it there.

If we develop top line offensive prospects - which the track record doesn't support - what in the past 15 years makes you think this coaching staff can get them past the 2nd round if we get there?
If you consider the current state of this team a "mess" I will just have to disagree and I suspect most neutral, knowledgable hockey observers would disagree with you too.

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03-18-2014, 06:35 PM
  #343
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How about this - we stop paring sample sizes down to what fits our arguments, and go with how successful we have been WRT the entire NHL? Which is not that great, and downright embarassing when it comes to playoff success.

Next, how long it took the Rangers or Blues to win a Cup is irrelevant in this discussion - which is essentially whether or not 15 years is long enough for one management/coaching group to show some progress.

Your bring up the Blues and Rangers for futility, but there are also examples like Anaheim and Tampa - teams that won Cups and built playoff teams that have gone deep in the playoffs a relatively short time after they were born.

I'm not saying or demanding that a new coach/GM win a cup, all i'm saying is that after 15 years, we let someone else take a crack at it. Maybe they'll be successful. Maybe they're not.

With this coach/GM combination - we're very rapidly approaching the definition of insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
You simultaneously express a desire to not "pare things down" then don't want long term discussion either.

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03-18-2014, 06:54 PM
  #344
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The situation is.
The Preds have a defense and goalie that in two years will be competitive in a playoff setting.

The forwards situation in no way resembles being talented enough in those two years to be as competitive as the 05-06 06-07 teams really the two best offensive years the team has had.

Currently the team is not bad enough to land a top three pick. Which it is going to take to get the team better before the defense blows up in a few years and rest assured it will. Webers contract will be affordable when it is considered against the contracts that Jones and Josi are going to get if they continue to improve like we all believe. In 06- )8 Weber was not even in the top 4 and these guys are younger than he was at the time. In 6 years Josi will be a UFA And if Jones is not locked up early like Josi was in the same time frame he will merit a huge contract. Unless the Cap goes to 100 mil it is hard to imagine a cap hit on three defensemen totaling north of 20 mil and a 7 mil goalie. The most aggressive cap top I have seen is 89 mil in 2020 and if that's the case those three players will consume over 30% of the cap.

If FF and Hook do develop into top 6 type guys by 2020 the team will be looking at north of 10 mil for those two not each but combined so you then have 5 players at 37 mil of the cap or 41% the remainder of the team will be filled with tweeners. The team makes the playoffs but continues to not have enough depth to be much more than 1 round and out.

The team is way out of balance, just as Edmonton is out of balance with offensive talent the Preds are on the opposite side. If the goal is to get back to the playoffs that is doable in 3 years. If the goal is to go deep and compete for the cup that can not happen holding on to Weber, Jones, Josi and Rinne. If the decision is made to re-build the team like it or not Weber is the piece his value is at its max the remainder of the defense has room to develop and an offense must be obtained and developed. In 5 years it is doubtful any of the forwards on the Preds roster today will be here.

Im not sure what the direction of the ownership is at this point. But the team is not bad enough to finish below Buffalo, Calgary and soon to be Vancouver so the hopes of landing McDavid are unrealistic. The defense and Pekka and a sputtering offense will keep the team drafting in the 8-13 spot for the next three years.

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03-18-2014, 07:22 PM
  #345
101st_fan
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You are the one that brought up that the Preds are one of three teams to not make a conference final. The simple fact that those three teams all entered the league in 1998 or later ... pointing the obvious out is not "paring sample sizes." Of course, the Preds fanbase used to rant that the team would never make the playoffs ... until it happened. Then the team would never make the second round ... until that happened. So now the arbitrary conference finals as the mark of success is the latest rant ... until it happens.

Only two of the 1990s or later expansion teams won a Cup so far. Going back to the 67-68 expansion ... few teams win it all in the first 15-20 years. From that first expansion class, only the Flyers won a Cup in their first two decades ... neither of the 1970 expansion teams has won a Cup at all to date ... the Islanders were another exception to the norm when winning their first Cup in just seven seasons while the Scouts/Rockies/Devils took 21 ... the Oilers existed for a dozen years before winning a Cup including their WHA time ... the Nordiques/Avs took over fifteen years after moving from the WHA to the NHL ... over two decades of NHL play for the Whalers/Canes ... that's without getting into the sometimes decades long droughts after a team did win a championship.

Winning big in the first 15 years is the exception ... not a rule that the Preds are violating.

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03-18-2014, 07:43 PM
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Ahem.... GDT? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?

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03-18-2014, 07:56 PM
  #347
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Originally Posted by RaiderDoug View Post
I haven't advocated doing anything like the Blue Jackets have done.
Denial doesn't make it any less true. A plan based on "let's fire folks and expect to draft a savior" is how MacLean ran this franchise for years, and it's how the Oilers have been run for the last half-decade.

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But I fail to see how you think that making a change at GM and/or coach after 15 years of trying a mostly failing at winning big in hockey will turn us into the Blue Jackets?

Many, many teams have changed coaches and management and gone on to win big.

Maybe we become the Colorado Avalanche - they got rid of a solid at best tandem in Greg Sherman and Joe Sacco, and in stepped Roy and Sakic, and they have a really bright future.
Hon? Perhaps it escaped your notice, but a lot of people are saying amazing things about the Avs and Roy precisely because it's so incredibly, overwhelmingly rare. You might as well be gambling that Wilson and Smith spontaneously become NHL superstars, because that's about as likely, and it has far less impact on the health of the Nashville Predators franchise.

* * *
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Remember when we couldn't wait to watch our new high end offensive guy who was finally going to be a home-grown scoring threat. His name was Colin Wilson. A few years before that, our savior was going to be Alex Radulov.

We're always waiting for that next big time forward to come through the system. Unfortunately, he's always a couple of years away and never actually gets here.
The problem with this is not Trotz and Poile. The problem is that "waiting for the savior" is a flawed premise, and making management decisions based on that is why Steve Tambellini was a dismal failure as a GM.

* * *
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Lifetime contracts - maybe hyperbole. Yet when I ask folks how many more years in order to get a deep playoff run, I rarely get an answer.
Because a definite timetable is the wrong approach. The correct approach is to go by performance standards that have a bit more sanity, sense, and realism.

* * *
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Winning big in the first 15 years is the exception ... not a rule that the Preds are violating.
You get a cookie.


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03-18-2014, 08:15 PM
  #348
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You get a cookie.

I prefer the product made by Jasper Newton Daniel.

One thing you overlooked is that the Avs success was not sudden. They've drafted early for the past several years and tried a few coaches (four since 07-08) while those kids developed ... Landeskog, MacKinnon, Duschene ... three top three picks in the past five years ... traded a #14 overall in Shattenkirk to the Blues for Erik Johnson ... but that half decade of struggle and moves gets overlooked in the Roy hype.

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03-18-2014, 08:43 PM
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Originally Posted by 101st_fan View Post
I prefer the product made by Jasper Newton Daniel.

One thing you overlooked is that the Avs success was not sudden. They've drafted early for the past several years and tried a few coaches (four since 07-08) while those kids developed ... Landeskog, MacKinnon, Duschene ... three top three picks in the past five years ... traded a #14 overall in Shattenkirk to the Blues for Erik Johnson ... but that half decade of struggle and moves gets overlooked in the Roy hype.
Meant to, but forgot.

(Also, I'm a dedicated teetotaler; the only time I've ever even purchased anything alcoholic was because my brother asked for it for (C)Han(n)uk(k)a(h) last year, so it was sort of a "please recognize what I've done to get you this" gift.

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03-18-2014, 09:00 PM
  #350
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Raider
You are the one that brought up that the Preds are one of three teams to not make a conference final. The simple fact that those three teams all entered the league in 1998 or later ... pointing the obvious out is not "paring sample sizes." Of course, the Preds fanbase used to rant that the team would never make the playoffs ... until it happened. Then the team would never make the second round ... until that happened. So now the arbitrary conference finals as the mark of success is the latest rant ... until it happens.

Only two of the 1990s or later expansion teams won a Cup so far. Going back to the 67-68 expansion ... few teams win it all in the first 15-20 years. From that first expansion class, only the Flyers won a Cup in their first two decades ... neither of the 1970 expansion teams has won a Cup at all to date ... the Islanders were another exception to the norm when winning their first Cup in just seven seasons while the Scouts/Rockies/Devils took 21 ... the Oilers existed for a dozen years before winning a Cup including their WHA time ... the Nordiques/Avs took over fifteen years after moving from the WHA to the NHL ... over two decades of NHL play for the Whalers/Canes ... that's without getting into the sometimes decades long droughts after a team did win a championship.

Winning big in the first 15 years is the exception ... not a rule that the Preds are violating.
Ok, so we're just not going to ever agree on what are the proper expectations.

But how about we look at it this way:

We both want the best for the Preds.

But what makes you so sure that Poile/Trotz are capable of leading us to the promised land?

What have they shown in 15 years that makes you so confident that Poile will build a team that's capable of winning a cup - but also that Trotz can actually coach them to one?

We've butted heads before, but I ask this completely seriously and with no sarcasm: What will it take, or will there ever come a point where you will decide that maybe, just maybe, some new blood and new ideas are in order?

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