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Old
03-18-2014, 09:21 PM
  #351
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Originally Posted by RaiderDoug View Post
Ok, so we're just not going to ever agree on what are the proper expectations.

But how about we look at it this way:

We both want the best for the Preds.

But what makes you so sure that Poile/Trotz are capable of leading us to the promised land?

What have they shown in 15 years that makes you so confident that Poile will build a team that's capable of winning a cup - but also that Trotz can actually coach them to one?

We've butted heads before, but I ask this completely seriously and with no sarcasm: What will it take, or will there ever come a point where you will decide that maybe, just maybe, some new blood and new ideas are in order?
I've said repeatedly what I think indicators are that it's time for Trotz and/or Poile to go. If you chose not to read or remember it ... that's on you.

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03-18-2014, 09:24 PM
  #352
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Denial doesn't make it any less true. A plan based on "let's fire folks and expect to draft a savior" is how MacLean ran this franchise for years, and it's how the Oilers have been run for the last half-decade.
Then there's 29 other teams in the NHL that are emulating the Oilers.

Do you really think that changing coaches/systems/etc once every 15 years makes us some knee jerk franchise?

I'm more on the "lets fire folks who have been trying and mostly failing for 15 years and try something new with new ideas and new people".

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Hon? Perhaps it escaped your notice, but a lot of people are saying amazing things about the Avs and Roy precisely because it's so incredibly, overwhelmingly rare. You might as well be gambling that Wilson and Smith spontaneously become NHL superstars, because that's about as likely, and it has far less impact on the health of the Nashville Predators franchise.
It's really not that rare. Teams fire underperforming coaches/GM's all the time. And they actually do go on to win big with new staffs.

But you're right, sometimes, they crash and burn and turn into the Oilers/Jackets/Panthers.


Forget the Avs. Insert your favorite team that was rebuilt from the ground up - the Blues. Hawks. Pens. Bruins. Ducks. Kings. Many of them brought in new coaches/GM's to replace the ones they had - and they didn't blow up into decades of failure.



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The problem with this is not Trotz and Poile. The problem is that "waiting for the savior" is a flawed premise, and making management decisions based on that is why Steve Tambellini was a dismal failure as a GM.
I don't disagree with you there. I don't want to have to put all our eggs in the Forsberg/Jarnkrok basket.

It's just that for most of the past 15 years, Predator Hockey has been defense and grind, and we're always waiting for that next hotshot to come and put us over the top. And he never gets here. He never develops.

It's time to stop blaming the players, and realize that the entire system is a flawed system. 15 years has shown that Predator Hockey isn't playoff hockey. 30 years of GMDP's career has mostly had playoff flameouts.


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Because a definite timetable is the wrong approach. The correct approach is to go by performance standards that have a bit more sanity, sense, and realism.
OK, name these "performance standards" you want to go by.

For me, at a bare minimum, I think we can expect to see one deep playoff run every 10 years. That's a pretty low bar. Even the horrible Oilers can make that.

And one we've failed to hit in a decade and a half.

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03-18-2014, 09:37 PM
  #353
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I've never claimed that Poile and Trotz can definitely take the Preds to the Cup ... nor have I yelled that they can't. Actually thinking that any team is destined to win a championship is insane. Fans all hope that their team wins it all ... all but one go home unhappy at the end of any given season. Winning it all takes more than skill or good coaching ... luck factors in. If it were something that could get figured just looking at a roster and who stands behind the bench there would be no need for the actual play. Just put the Hawks in the WCF along with the Pens in the ECF until their current lineups age or move on.

Too much of what I see here is calling for change for the sake of change that ignores how often that fails .. see Columbus, Edmonton, Long Island. Hell, Quenneville couldn't get the job done with the Avs and what Roy walked into was over five years in the making ... over five years of suck and struggle that kept producing top three overall selections.

The reality of sports fandom is disappointment over and over again. 15 years is next to nothing in the sports world. Imagine being a Hawks or Rangers fan when they went over 20 years each without a Cup in the pre-expansion age (the league shrunk to six teams between the Hawks wins in 38 and 61) ... yet, 15 years has these boards up in arms (the reality is that they've been up in arms for at least three years ... some members closer to five).

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03-18-2014, 09:52 PM
  #354
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Originally Posted by 101st_fan View Post
I've never claimed that Poile and Trotz can definitely take the Preds to the Cup ... nor have I yelled that they can't. Actually thinking that any team is destined to win a championship is insane. Fans all hope that their team wins it all ... all but one go home unhappy at the end of any given season. Winning it all takes more than skill or good coaching ... luck factors in. If it were something that could get figured just looking at a roster and who stands behind the bench there would be no need for the actual play. Just put the Hawks in the WCF along with the Pens in the ECF until their current lineups age or move on.

Too much of what I see here is calling for change for the sake of change that ignores how often that fails .. see Columbus, Edmonton, Long Island. Hell, Quenneville couldn't get the job done with the Avs and what Roy walked into was over five years in the making ... over five years of suck and struggle that kept producing top three overall selections.

The reality of sports fandom is disappointment over and over again. 15 years is next to nothing in the sports world. Imagine being a Hawks or Rangers fan when they went over 20 years each without a Cup in the pre-expansion age (the league shrunk to six teams between the Hawks wins in 38 and 61) ... yet, 15 years has these boards up in arms (the reality is that they've been up in arms for at least three years ... some members closer to five).
Yet there have been teams in recent years that have changed coaches and won Cups the year the change happened or within a few years. There are failures and successes. To be afraid to make change because it may fail is the worst thing anyone can do. If you fail, you try again. It's not the end of the world. 15 years is enough of a sample size to see what can be done with Poile and Trotz leading the way. It's not change for change sake with me. It's watching and evaluating what has or hasn't been done with these two in charge. At some point it's about results and I feel the results we've had warrant a change.

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03-18-2014, 10:00 PM
  #355
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Originally Posted by 101st_fan View Post
I've never claimed that Poile and Trotz can definitely take the Preds to the Cup ... nor have I yelled that they can't. Actually thinking that any team is destined to win a championship is insane. Fans all hope that their team wins it all ... all but one go home unhappy at the end of any given season. Winning it all takes more than skill or good coaching ... luck factors in. If it were something that could get figured just looking at a roster and who stands behind the bench there would be no need for the actual play. Just put the Hawks in the WCF along with the Pens in the ECF until their current lineups age or move on.

Too much of what I see here is calling for change for the sake of change that ignores how often that fails .. see Columbus, Edmonton, Long Island. Hell, Quenneville couldn't get the job done with the Avs and what Roy walked into was over five years in the making ... over five years of suck and struggle that kept producing top three overall selections.

The reality of sports fandom is disappointment over and over again. 15 years is next to nothing in the sports world. Imagine being a Hawks or Rangers fan when they went over 20 years each without a Cup in the pre-expansion age (the league shrunk to six teams between the Hawks wins in 38 and 61) ... yet, 15 years has these boards up in arms (the reality is that they've been up in arms for at least three years ... some members closer to five).
I can agree with the premise of your 1st and 3rd paragraph.


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Originally Posted by 101st_fan View Post
Too much of what I see here is calling for change for the sake of change.
But what makes you so convinced that this is change just for the sake of change?

But many reasonable measures - lack of playoff success over a period of time, lack of development of a balanced team, being upset in the playoffs when we did have a superior team (on the flip side - failure to upset anyone in the playoffs), questionable player acquisitions, etc - those are legit reasons to let someone else give it a shot.

The only feather in the cap of this coach/GM duo is a pretty decent regular season winning %. That's it.

There's nothing else that the Preds have done that has been noteworthy or remarkable.

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03-18-2014, 10:08 PM
  #356
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Then there's 29 other teams in the NHL that are emulating the Oilers.
29 other teams in the NHL aren't trying to tank for top picks and then hoping that said pick is somehow Just Talented Enough that they can just hop in and magically save the day. Your assertion is completely absurd.

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Do you really think that changing coaches/systems/etc once every 15 years makes us some knee jerk franchise?
No, but given that the stated reasons for Fire Everybody have been repeated unchanged for almost seven years with only small changes to the dates, and the only truly significant setback this franchise has ever seen that came directly from the Preds FO was these past two offseasons with the Suter departure and poor free agency selection the next season, and that the rest of the franchise's existence has maintained a consistent record of performance that most teams around the League would be quite happy to have but which has led to a sizable portion of the fanbase being "spoiled by success", I do think that an immediate change is the wrong approach.

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It's really not that rare. Teams fire underperforming coaches/GM's all the time. And they actually do go on to win big with new staffs.

But you're right, sometimes, they crash and burn and turn into the Oilers/Jackets/Panthers.
And most of the rest of the time, they stagnate and/or don't progress at all, such that you've accomplished nothing.

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Originally Posted by RaiderDoug View Post
Forget the Avs. Insert your favorite team that was rebuilt from the ground up - the Blues. Hawks. Pens. Bruins. Ducks. Kings. Many of them brought in new coaches/GM's to replace the ones they had - and they didn't blow up into decades of failure.
Perhaps you should also look at how they got to those points in the first place.

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I don't disagree with you there. I don't want to have to put all our eggs in the Forsberg/Jarnkrok basket.

It's just that for most of the past 15 years, Predator Hockey has been defense and grind, and we're always waiting for that next hotshot to come and put us over the top. And he never gets here. He never develops.
I hope that when you say "we" in that second paragraph, you're referring to those portions of the fanbase I've been criticizing. Because if that's what you think Poile and Trotz have tried, then something's very very wrong here.

It looks like here you're saying that you're against the approach of "waiting for saviors", but you've also been advocating elsewhere for tanking for higher draft picks - which is the exact same damn thing, only with different names. It's a classic "the grass is greener on the other side" fallacy. "Well, we traded for them, therefore they must suck."

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OK, name these "performance standards" you want to go by.

For me, at a bare minimum, I think we can expect to see one deep playoff run every 10 years. That's a pretty low bar. Even the horrible Oilers can make that.

And one we've failed to hit in a decade and a half.
Please indicate if you consider any of the following teams to similarly be dismal failures due to your standard:
  • Colorado
  • Minnesota
  • St. Louis
  • Washington
(I assume Florida, Calgary, Winnipeg, the Islanders, Toronto, and Columbus - oh, and, of course, Nashville - would go without saying. But, hey, "even the horrible Oilers can"...)

As for my expected standards for a front office staff, here's a summation:
  • Consistently assembles rosters that can and do get the opportunity to compete for the championship; doesn't spend years upon years in the basement. Bonus if they can make occasional deep runs. (Check.)
  • Consistently drafts competitively, adding NHL players from nearly all rounds. Bonus if you can add a superstar or two. (Check and bonus check x3).
  • Consistently effective in trades, getting fair value back for players when they're moved, and keeps the roster and development system stocked. Bonus if you can pull off a blockbuster and get the upper hand. (Check.)
  • Consistently gets good deals in free agency, patching holes as needed and keeping the roster competitive. Bonus if a major free agency coup is brought in. (Historically, yes. This past offseason...)

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03-18-2014, 10:12 PM
  #357
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Yet there have been teams in recent years that have changed coaches and won Cups the year the change happened or within a few years. There are failures and successes. To be afraid to make change because it may fail is the worst thing anyone can do. If you fail, you try again. It's not the end of the world. 15 years is enough of a sample size to see what can be done with Poile and Trotz leading the way. It's not change for change sake with me. It's watching and evaluating what has or hasn't been done with these two in charge. At some point it's about results and I feel the results we've had warrant a change.
Sorry ... not seeing anyone who is afraid of change. There are some here who make reasoned cases for switching things up and others making a case for holding off on that type of change. There are some who rant.

This is a team that is not 24 months separated from a good run into the post season before meeting a team that simply applied our old work ethic and tactics better than we did and advanced to their first ever NHL conference final ... over three decades after leaving the WHA. Sucked ... but such is sports. This summer Poile took a chance with Stalberg who is underperforming ... a common trend with FAs over the past few summers ... and Cullen, a veteran setup guy who is still great at puckhandling but isn't getting points (hard to set up when so few of our guys are scoring) ... then two grinders who get all of the attention and feed into rants around here (nevermind that one of those grinders has 13 goals and the other was traded away for a vet goalie who then got shipped off at the deadline for zero net grinders added).

The funniest rants I've seen here simultaneously complain that the Preds were on the cusp in 2011-12 while Trotz and Poile are incompetent ... a position as logical as buying dehydrated water.


Defecation occurs and not all moves pan out as hoped ... on to the next FA period and draft class and see what happens.

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03-18-2014, 10:13 PM
  #358
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But what makes you so convinced that this is change just for the sake of change?
The ability to comprehend the English language in its written form.

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03-18-2014, 10:21 PM
  #359
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Yet we rely on our staff to develop young forward talent that can put the puck in the net on a consistent basis. We've had some decent players come through our system but none that are types that will lead you through the playoffs. I don't see that changing with Trotz at the helm.

Two years ago was nice but the reason we got bounced, even though we outplayed Phoenix was simple, we couldn't bury the puck. We are still unable to bury the puck. I don't see anyone in the system that makes me excited. Maybe some of these kids finally pan out but 15 years of watching what happens with this team makes me think otherwise. Maybe you can teach an old dog new tricks. Maybe these kids are the real deal. Neither of us know and won't know realistically for a few years.

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03-18-2014, 10:25 PM
  #360
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Originally Posted by 101st_fan View Post
The ability to comprehend the English language in its written form.
I just gave you half a dozen reasons that bringing in a new staff/management wouldn't be "change for the sake of change" and this is your answer?

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03-18-2014, 10:26 PM
  #361
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Yet we rely on our staff to develop young forward talent that can put the puck in the net on a consistent basis. We've had some decent players come through our system but none that are types that will lead you through the playoffs. I don't see that changing with Trotz at the helm.

Two years ago was nice but the reason we got bounced, even though we outplayed Phoenix was simple, we couldn't bury the puck. We are still unable to bury the puck. I don't see anyone in the system that makes me excited. Maybe some of these kids finally pan out but 15 years of watching what happens with this team makes me think otherwise. Maybe you can teach an old dog new tricks. Maybe these kids are the real deal. Neither of us know and won't know realistically for a few years.
I've noticed that when other teams don't score on us it's because of good team defense or solid goaltending on our part. When we don't score, it's all our forwards and never the other team's play. The team that bounced us in 2012 bounced the Chicago Blackhawks in the first round ... that talent lacking, unable to score Blackhawks squad.

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03-18-2014, 10:28 PM
  #362
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I just gave you half a dozen reasons that bringing in a new staff/management wouldn't be "change for the sake of change" and this is your answer?
OH ... you think I'm referring only to you? Read Viqsi's rebuttal earlier and the years of Fire Everybody (wasn't that an actual thread title once? I'm not in the mood to search for it) mentality that pops up every season. The team has two bad seasons, and their unbalanced. When they are in the top ten in every major statistical category ... it gets ignored. Same goes for individual players.


ETA
Fire Trotz, Poile, or both threads in 03-04, 06-07, 09-10, 10-11 ... for some of the older examples.


Last edited by 101st_fan: 03-18-2014 at 10:37 PM.
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03-18-2014, 10:35 PM
  #363
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I've noticed that when other teams don't score on us it's because of good team defense or solid goaltending on our part. When we don't score, it's all our forwards and never the other team's play. The team that bounced us in 2012 bounced the Chicago Blackhawks in the first round ... that talent lacking, unable to score Blackhawks squad.
The same team that has won two Cups in the last four years? Yeah, they got bounced yet they have a pretty good run going right now.

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03-18-2014, 10:40 PM
  #364
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The same team that has won two Cups in the last four years? Yeah, they got bounced yet they have a pretty good run going right now.
Yeah .. that team. The one that couldn't beat the Yotes in the first round of the 2012 playoffs. Yet you give the Yotes no credit and blame the Preds 100% for the second round.

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03-18-2014, 10:40 PM
  #365
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Does the scouting corps need to be revamped? We haven't found a finisher in how many years of trying? We have drafted one pure goal scorer. Management drafts based on what the scouts tell them. Maybe we need better scouting and maybe not always go with the safe pick.

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03-18-2014, 10:50 PM
  #366
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29 other teams in the NHL aren't trying to tank for top picks and then hoping that said pick is somehow Just Talented Enough that they can just hop in and magically save the day. Your assertion is completely absurd.
Absurd? How so?

That's how teams are built. They draft well, they get good players, they win.

I don't think we're "waiting on a savior" by hoping we get good players in the draft.

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No, but given that the stated reasons for Fire Everybody have been repeated unchanged for almost seven years with only small changes to the dates, and the only truly significant setback this franchise has ever seen that came directly from the Preds FO was these past two offseasons with the Suter departure and poor free agency selection the next season, and that the rest of the franchise's existence has maintained a consistent record of performance that most teams around the League would be quite happy to have but which has led to a sizable portion of the fanbase being "spoiled by success", I do think that an immediate change is the wrong approach.
Don't necessarily disagree with this.

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And most of the rest of the time, they stagnate and/or don't progress at all, such that you've accomplished nothing.
Since the lockout, we had 3 straight 1st round losses, then no playoffs, 1st round loss, 2nd round loss, 2nd round loss, no playoffs, no playoffs.

That's looks pretty stagnant to me. Actually, it looks like we're trending in the wrong direction.

So, worst case scenario - we hire a dud of a coach and miss the playoffs. Which is what we're doing now.

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It looks like here you're saying that you're against the approach of "waiting for saviors", but you've also been advocating elsewhere for tanking for higher draft picks - which is the exact same damn thing, only with different names. It's a classic "the grass is greener on the other side" fallacy. "Well, we traded for them, therefore they must suck."
I want to have a team that's not always waiting for the next guy to come and save us. But that's where we are. That's the team Poile/Trotz have built. Over and over again.

The alternative is to hope that our grinders all of a sudden find enough offensive game to make us a playoff threat. Which is jsut not going to happen.

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Please indicate if you consider any of the following teams to similarly be dismal failures due to your standard:
  • Colorado
  • Minnesota
  • St. Louis
  • Washington
(I assume Florida, Calgary, Winnipeg, the Islanders, Toronto, and Columbus - oh, and, of course, Nashville - would go without saying. But, hey, "even the horrible Oilers can"...)
Fail to see the comparison. Minnesota does have a deep run in the playoffs.

St. Lou looks like is has a budding dynasty. If they don't get to a WCF in the next several years - yes, a dismal failure. Colorado looks like it has a similarly bright future.

I'm not adverse to rebuilding or lean years, as long as they lead to something better. I'm not convinced that there are better years ahead for the Preds.

I do think i'd be pretty pissed at the lack of playoff success if I was a Caps fan.

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As for my expected standards for a front office staff, here's a summation:
  • Consistently assembles rosters that can and do get the opportunity to compete for the championship; doesn't spend years upon years in the basement. Bonus if they can make occasional deep runs. (Check.)
  • Consistently drafts competitively, adding NHL players from nearly all rounds. Bonus if you can add a superstar or two. (Check and bonus check x3).
  • Consistently effective in trades, getting fair value back for players when they're moved, and keeps the roster and development system stocked. Bonus if you can pull off a blockbuster and get the upper hand. (Check.)
  • Consistently gets good deals in free agency, patching holes as needed and keeping the roster competitive. Bonus if a major free agency coup is brought in. (Historically, yes. This past offseason...)
1 - we never were a serious contender for a championship. Our best team got bounced in the 2nd round in 5 games. Our 2nd best team lost in the 1st to a lower seeded team in 5 games.

And we're in the basement for the second consecutive year.

2. We do draft well. But not that well, or we wouldn't be having this discussion.

3. For every good trade (Forsberg), there's a bad trade (Witt, Gaustad). Poile has been ok. And the jury is still out on Forsberg/Jarnkrok.

4. Lombardi? Stalberg/Cullen/Hendricks - well see how he can get out of this mess.

Very few of your standards actually pertain to what happens on the ice.

And if you're so satisfied with Poile's drafting, free agent acquisitions, and, and trades - isn't that an indictment of Trotz's coaching for failing to do anything with them?

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03-19-2014, 06:49 AM
  #367
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Yeah .. that team. The one that couldn't beat the Yotes in the first round of the 2012 playoffs. Yet you give the Yotes no credit and blame the Preds 100% for the second round.
Yet anyone who watched that series knew we outplayed them and lost the series 4-1. Why? We either couldn't score or we ran in to a hot goalie or possibly a bit of both.

Fact is we have two playoff series wins with what, 7 playoff series losses? Not a great record by any means. I'm not satisfied with the current situation.

Change can bring three outcomes. We get better , worse or stay the same. Being that we've toiling in the bottom of the league the last two years, it can't get much worse. If we stay the course we could toil where we are for a while or we could improve. Then again a change could result in anything. 15 years is enough. I personally won't go back to the arena until something changes. No reason to go watch this train wreck anymore in person.

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03-19-2014, 08:41 AM
  #368
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Originally Posted by hockey diva View Post
Does the scouting corps need to be revamped? We haven't found a finisher in how many years of trying? We have drafted one pure goal scorer. Management drafts based on what the scouts tell them. Maybe we need better scouting and maybe not always go with the safe pick.
That I could see as a possible useful change. Wouldn't guarantee results, but nothing can, really.

* * *
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Absurd? How so?

That's how teams are built. They draft well, they get good players, they win.

I don't think we're "waiting on a savior" by hoping we get good players in the draft.
Absurd because it's oversimplifying. There's more to it than "oh, this guy was good and this guy was bad".

And when I say "waiting on a savior", I'm referring to this obsession with "if we can just get the right ubertalented guy it'll be All Okay". It's a process of finding the right mix of players. If all teambuilding took was finding guys with a "talent threshold" above X and throwing them in the same locker room, Team Russia probably would have won gold.

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Don't necessarily disagree with this.
Huh. I had the impression otherwise. Mea culpa.

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Since the lockout, we had 3 straight 1st round losses, then no playoffs, 1st round loss, 2nd round loss, 2nd round loss, no playoffs, no playoffs.

That's looks pretty stagnant to me. Actually, it looks like we're trending in the wrong direction.

So, worst case scenario - we hire a dud of a coach and miss the playoffs. Which is what we're doing now.
It looks to me like an upward trend followed by an abrupt downturn. Firing folks now is akin to selling an asset low. I wouldn't do it until we're sure that the downturn is here to stay (and I think there's good signs that it's not).

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I want to have a team that's not always waiting for the next guy to come and save us. But that's where we are. That's the team Poile/Trotz have built. Over and over again.

The alternative is to hope that our grinders all of a sudden find enough offensive game to make us a playoff threat. Which is jsut not going to happen.
Hon? There's a difference between what they've built and what you think they've built. Poile/Trotz have pretty much always been going for a "large amounts of forward depth" strategy, rather than a "the next guy will save us" strategy. That latter idea is solely and exclusively the fabrication of disgruntled fans.

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Fail to see the comparison. Minnesota does have a deep run in the playoffs.

St. Lou looks like is has a budding dynasty. If they don't get to a WCF in the next several years - yes, a dismal failure. Colorado looks like it has a similarly bright future.
Minnesota has had a deep run in the playoffs... but not within 10 years. Colorado hasn't made it past the second round since 2002 - twelve years ago. St. Louis's last trip past the second round was in 2001. By the standard you describe, they are failures.

My point is that the standard you're discussing is fundamentally flawed and not at all objective.

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I'm not adverse to rebuilding or lean years, as long as they lead to something better. I'm not convinced that there are better years ahead for the Preds.
I'm not 100% on it either, but I think the odds are much better than the "zero or near-zero" that many folks here appear to be assuming.

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1 - we never were a serious contender for a championship. Our best team got bounced in the 2nd round in 5 games. Our 2nd best team lost in the 1st to a lower seeded team in 5 games.
Upsets happen.

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And we're in the basement for the second consecutive year.
Back-to-back playoffless years isn't a disaster or a horrible mess; it's a setback. A big one that should get people's attention, but a setback.

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2. We do draft well. But not that well, or we wouldn't be having this discussion.
Last I checked Poile's drafting is actually well above average. The "problem", such as it is, is twofold:
1) he has a tendency to default towards the "safe pick" when in doubt, which generally does get you NHLers but doesn't always get you superstars (and which is arguably the correct way to handle it - see Doug MacLean for an example of when you go for those kind of "home runs" all the time)
2) while several of his "home run" attempts at the blueline and in goal have been successful beyond anybody's wildest dreams, his "home run" attempts at forward have generally been successful and useful but not common enough to put the team "over the top". (That's arguably due as much to good or bad fortune as it is to draft selection and development.)

To be a great GM, you need to be both skilled and lucky. Poile is skilled, and has been occasionally lucky (particularly with guys like Weber and Rinne), but not consistently so.

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3. For every good trade (Forsberg), there's a bad trade (Witt, Gaustad). Poile has been ok. And the jury is still out on Forsberg/Jarnkrok.
That's still pretty consistent.

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4. Lombardi? Stalberg/Cullen/Hendricks - well see how he can get out of this mess.

Very few of your standards actually pertain to what happens on the ice.
That's because what happens on the ice is 1) subject to many other variables, and 2) a major function of the coach.

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And if you're so satisfied with Poile's drafting, free agent acquisitions, and, and trades - isn't that an indictment of Trotz's coaching for failing to do anything with them?
If they weren't consistently in the playoffs, it would be.


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03-19-2014, 08:46 AM
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Yet anyone who watched that series knew we outplayed them and lost the series 4-1. Why? We either couldn't score or we ran in to a hot goalie or possibly a bit of both.

Fact is we have two playoff series wins with what, 7 playoff series losses? Not a great record by any means. I'm not satisfied with the current situation.

Change can bring three outcomes. We get better , worse or stay the same. Being that we've toiling in the bottom of the league the last two years, it can't get much worse. If we stay the course we could toil where we are for a while or we could improve. Then again a change could result in anything. 15 years is enough. I personally won't go back to the arena until something changes. No reason to go watch this train wreck anymore in person.
This is exactly the sort of thing I refer to when I suggest that some of all y'all have no clue what true suffering at the hands of a legit train wreck actually is and are spoiled by success. Two years in the hole? Oh how very horrible. WE SHOULD BE SO LUCKY. "Can't get much worse"? If you think being persistently bounced out of the playoffs is so egregious and interminably frustrating, try consistently never making it. It can always be worse. Vastly worse.


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03-19-2014, 09:31 AM
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This is exactly the sort of thing I refer to when I suggest that some of all y'all have no clue what true suffering at the hands of a legit train wreck actually is and are spoiled by success. Two years in the hole? Oh how very horrible. WE SHOULD BE SO LUCKY. "Can't get much worse"? If you think being persistently bounced out of the playoffs is so egregious and interminably frustrating, try consistently never making it. It can always be worse. Vastly worse.
Well, don't you think this is rather opinionated based on one's definition of success? Some don't feel that just getting to rounds one or two of the playoffs are that successful. I mean, 50% of the league gets in. Is that really a success? Maybe.... No one is debating how bad the BJ's are/were, but many aren't thrilled with the history of this organization, and I don't feel it's that far off base. At least not enough to say some have no clue.

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03-19-2014, 09:37 AM
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Well, don't you think this is rather opinionated based on one's definition of success? Some don't feel that just getting to rounds one or two of the playoffs are that successful. I mean, 50% of the league gets in. Is that really a success? Maybe.... No one is debating how bad the BJ's are/were, but many aren't thrilled with the history of this organization, and I don't feel it's that far off base. At least not enough to say some have no clue.
I sure don't think it is. Seems some in this fanbase and the Predators are happy with being average because "it could be worse"

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03-19-2014, 10:44 AM
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Well, don't you think this is rather opinionated based on one's definition of success? Some don't feel that just getting to rounds one or two of the playoffs are that successful. I mean, 50% of the league gets in. Is that really a success? Maybe.... No one is debating how bad the BJ's are/were, but many aren't thrilled with the history of this organization, and I don't feel it's that far off base. At least not enough to say some have no clue.
I would be much more concerned about one's definition of "failure" and their idea of whether or not "things can't get worse". What folks are referring to here as a "failure" and "train wreck" and whatnot is commonplace - any team will go through this from time to time. What I always knew of as "failure" and "train wreck" is the sort of thing that can destroy franchises and fanbases - a persistent, systematic incompetence that erodes away at the game itself. Nashville isn't facing anything even remotely approaching that, and watching people describe the current ill fortune as anything even approximately similar is frankly downright offensive - especially given how close this franchise has itself been to that sort of disaster. Of all the fans in the NHL, one would think this fanbase would get it after Balsillie... and yet it seems that so many folks just don't.

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03-19-2014, 11:28 AM
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I would be much more concerned about one's definition of "failure" and their idea of whether or not "things can't get worse". What folks are referring to here as a "failure" and "train wreck" and whatnot is commonplace - any team will go through this from time to time. What I always knew of as "failure" and "train wreck" is the sort of thing that can destroy franchises and fanbases - a persistent, systematic incompetence that erodes away at the game itself. Nashville isn't facing anything even remotely approaching that, and watching people describe the current ill fortune as anything even approximately similar is frankly downright offensive - especially given how close this franchise has itself been to that sort of disaster. Of all the fans in the NHL, one would think this fanbase would get it after Balsillie... and yet it seems that so many folks just don't.
Pulling out the Balsille reference seems a little extreme. Again, we go to the definition opinion. The team got the green light last summer to spend, an they did signing 5 players. Hendricks has already been dumped, Hutton has been called out in the media for being awful, Cullen has been below average, and Stalberg has been brutal. Nystrom has been pretty good. The team is now ranking 24th and just went 0-3 against Edmonton. The GM admits our offense needs major changes and the coach uses a system which (arguably) is 10 years outdated. Again, I don't see why there's a need to go that extreme.

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03-19-2014, 12:08 PM
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I think there is quite the overreaction going on here. The situation is not terrible. It is not going to destroy a fanbase in the next few years. There are a bunch of good prospects who could be good NHLers on the way. Is this a team making the playoffs this year? No. Is it one that can next year? Absolutely, and if you are in it, you can win it.

There isn't a fan out there that wouldn't want to win 82 games by blowout and sweep a playoff 16-0. Reality is you look at the money we can spend, who we spent it on, identify what works and build off it. We are better than last year. It is very apparant this team is 2, maybe 3 forwards and a little physical maturity from being back in the thick of things.

Enjoy the ride.

And yes, thank whatever deity we are not Columbus, Florida, Edmonton, or any fans that have suffered by mis-step after mis-step by management without getting better. Preds do a lot well, and it is not appreciated. We take Our D and G depth for granted. We don't give some of the F the credit they deserve for playing above their lines. Relax.

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03-19-2014, 12:41 PM
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Pulling out the Balsille reference seems a little extreme. Again, we go to the definition opinion. The team got the green light last summer to spend, an they did signing 5 players. Hendricks has already been dumped, Hutton has been called out in the media for being awful, Cullen has been below average, and Stalberg has been brutal. Nystrom has been pretty good. The team is now ranking 24th and just went 0-3 against Edmonton. The GM admits our offense needs major changes and the coach uses a system which (arguably) is 10 years outdated. Again, I don't see why there's a need to go that extreme.
If my response is extreme, it's because the "we need to fire people" crowd is using extreme language, and it's looking to me like a little education as to when that language is deserved is in order.

I'm not claiming that all is well and nothing is necessary - but neither is Poile, and neither is Trotz. There's a difference between "Poile has noticed he did bad; give him a chance to recover" (the position I have) and "we're doomed and this is a horrible disaster, fire everybody" - which kind of looks like the majority opinion in this thread. One bad offseason does not ruin a team. One bad offseason does not constitute a "train wreck".

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