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Does anybody else wish Shero was more of a "cowboy"

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Old
03-16-2014, 11:55 PM
  #51
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I'm not sure that Martin has a pulse at this point.
He was behind the bench looking like a miserable owl recently or that cartoon dog or Eeyore. So, no, no, he does not have a pulse. I don't think Bylsma can be rationalized with at this point, his self confidence can't be touched. He'll just wear anyone down, he's so insanely stubborn in the face of everything. Which is a shame because he's a better coach when he's insecure and will actually coach.

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03-17-2014, 12:08 AM
  #52
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^ Kind of funny this is talked about in this thread. I just said in the other thread *pure speculation* that it's interesting watching him on the bench. It's like he has no role and doesn't really communicate to the players at all. He's like the unwanted coach that stands off to the side.

Pure utter crap speculation. I don't know what goes on in the meetings. I just am amazed with how little he does on the bench. The body language and what goes on would make me assume he does NOTHING.

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03-17-2014, 12:15 AM
  #53
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Interesting, speculation but interesting nonetheless. I wonder if he's just like that or he's been pushed into that, possible effect on Bylsma and/or Martin replacing him. I desperately want a coach cam.

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03-17-2014, 12:19 AM
  #54
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Id say pending what Buffalo do with Ted Nolan - Id be gunning straight for him to be the new coach
Oh helllls to the no.

I'd rather have Lavioette, than a guy that place the racism card when he gets fired.

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03-17-2014, 12:56 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Honour Over Glory View Post
Oh helllls to the no.

I'd rather have Lavioette, than a guy that place the racism card when he gets fired.
Nolan get results, can handle both prospects and veterans and his teams always work hard. More then i can say for anythign resembling Bylsma's teams.

Meh id be happy with anyone instead of Bylsma and Shero right now

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03-17-2014, 08:41 AM
  #56
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This is what leads me to believe Shero just has blind faith in Bylsma. Shero lets Bylsma play the players he wants and how he wants and doesn't demand better from Bylsma after he keeps falling flat on his face. Shero got rid of Therrien's favorite guy Michel Ouellet, but he won't send Bilbo Gibbons back to the AHL or waive Craig Adams. It's like ever since 2009 Shero has been soft and has been more of a buddy than a boss.
I honestly think that Shero believes in Craig Adams. No one forced a gun to his head to re-sign him this summer.

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03-17-2014, 09:30 AM
  #57
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I honestly think that Shero believes in Craig Adams. No one forced a gun to his head to re-sign him this summer.
Quoted for truth.

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03-17-2014, 10:21 AM
  #58
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Old
03-17-2014, 02:49 PM
  #59
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The bolded part is kind of my point, the guys on the Shero list you have there (save kunitz) are all bottom 6 fodder or severely declining former top 6ers that are no longer on the team anyway. Shero has yet to build a quality core of his own, with a big ol' Shero stamp on it. This collective pile of hot trash is all Ray. By no means am I a Craig Patrick ball-washer, his time had come, but the truth is Ray Shero has yet to build anything of value around the embarassment of riches left at his feet. On top of that, he allows his "special needs" head coach get away with murder on a nightly basis.
I was contesting the idea that the team in 2009 was "Craig Patrick's Team". I showed that definitely wasn't the case (3 out of the 4 top 6 wingers in the '09 playoffs had been acquired by Shero, and 5 out of the top 9 forwards had been). None of what you say above refutes that point.

There's plenty to criticize about what Shero has done since the Cup win in '09. But trying to undermine what he did leading up to '09 makes it look like you're trying to ignore anything Shero has done right (particularly when you try to dismiss the trade for Neal by saying Shero used Craig Patrick's assets to acquire him). When you are so obviously reaching to try to make Shero look bad, it has the effect of undermining your argument instead.

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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
Just a few points:

1. Carl Sneep says 'hi'.
Chosen when Craig Patrick's head scout, Greg Malone, was still in charge, I'll note.

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2. I notice that you omitted later round picks from Craig Patrick's last two drafts. I am sure it has nothing to do with Letang (3rd, 2005), Vitale (7th, 2005), Alex Gologoski (2nd, 2004), and Tyler Kennedy (4th, 2004). Why, in just those four picks, Craig Patrick beats the non-first round picks Ray Shero has to show on his roster from the last 8 drafts.
Actually, those drafts were fantastic. I was trying to figure out how to give credit for them, but the post was getting too long. That said, the previous several drafts were horrible, including one in which one practically had to try to do so poorly in it (2003).

In any case, Shero's drafting is a separate issue from whether the 2009 Cup was won by "Craig Patrick's Team", which is the point I was refuting. I'm just tired of the idea that has been starting to float around that Craig Patrick was this amazing GM who was wrongly fired by the Pens, and Shero merely got lucky to win in 2009. Patrick was washed up at the time he was fired. It definitely wasn't "his team" that won the Cup, any more than it wasn't "Patrick's Team" that won in '91 or '92 (after all, Craig Patrick inherited Mario Lemieux, Zarley Zalapski, Mark Recchi, Craig Simpson, Robbie Brown, etc... and if you question my including Zalapski and Simpson, well, Patrick merely used assets acquired by previous GMs in his trades, so by the same logic as excluding the Kunitz trade was used, those trades don't count either!)

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3. Robert Bortuzzo, and Olli Maatta? Care to venture a guess as to what they've got in common. They are the only two Ray Shero picks from the 8 Ray Shero drafts to suit up tonight.
So picks only count if they never get traded? Huh.

Quote:
4. Looking at that 'who's who' above, two quick things pop to mind: One, the Patrick assets were and are the core. The Shero assets were expendable. They still are, despite what Ray Shero thinks. Two, Kunitz was acquired with a Patrick asset. Frankly, the only non-free agents on this team who can be tied into those 8 Ray Shero drafts are Sutter, Maatta, Bennett (when healthy), Despres (when everyone is hurt), Bortuzzo (when everyone but Despres is hurt). You can add Dupuis if you like, although he was swapped with Armstrong for all intents and purposes. So, add it all up, look at the guys playing when everyone is healthy, and only Sutter and Maatta can be tied to 8 Ray Shero drafts.
So, wait, we can't count picks Shero made if he traded away the player made with the pick, but we also can't count trades Shero made if he traded away assets acquired by previous regimes.

That's an awfully convenient way to cut down on the number of things that "count" in Shero's favor.

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There are grounds to have criticized a lot of Craig Patricks draft work. Comparing it to someone's even less competent work isn't one of them.
I didn't compare it to Shero's. I was refuting the contention that the 2008/2009 team was "Craig Patrick's Team." I dispute the notion that all Shero had to do was show up, and that win would have happened. If that had been the case, they could have just kept Patrick. Looking at how Patrick built a team in his last few years shows that's clearly not the case.

Quote:
Yeah, this.

One last thought: Greg Malone with his tight scouting budget did so much better a job of identifying NHL players than Ray Shero and his circle jerk of friends with far less limited resources has done.
Greg Malone was also the one who decided to draft Sneep, and told Shero not to sign Moulson, but for some reason those last two are being placed solely at Shero's feet.

I don't think everything Shero has done is correct. I just don't understand why people are pining for Craig Patrick. Seriously, Shane Endicott. Patrick thought that guy was a better choice on the roster than Talbot during the 05/06 season.

Personally, though, I do wish a bit more for the Shero from the 2007/2008 timeframe. He cut loose Ouellett, despite him having some success with Malkin, and went didn't let any sentimentality get in the way of dealing Armstrong and Christensen. It does seem like there's been a bit of a change in how much Shero has been willing to let go of roster players that have been around a while.

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03-17-2014, 07:15 PM
  #60
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If/when the Pens flame out in the playoffs, I would bring Shero in and say "This is 4 years in a row of playoff failures. What are you going to do to change this?" If the first words out of his mouth aren't something along the lines of "I'm going to make a coaching change," then I thank him for his service and in form him that he is no longer the GM of the Pittsburgh Penguins. Granted I would have done this last year and possibly the year before as well, but what's done is done.

There is plenty to criticize Shero for from his drafting to his overpayment in some trades to his signing of old, slow washed up players instead of forcing Bylsma to use the younger guys. But outside of the Tampa series, they have been better teams than how they have finished the last 4 seasons, and even then, they should have been able to win 1 of 3. I think he is a decent GM, however, if he can't see Bylsma is a major problem, then it's time for him to go.

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03-17-2014, 07:30 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Freeptop View Post
I was contesting the idea that the team in 2009 was "Craig Patrick's Team". I showed that definitely wasn't the case (3 out of the 4 top 6 wingers in the '09 playoffs had been acquired by Shero, and 5 out of the top 9 forwards had been). None of what you say above refutes that point.

There's plenty to criticize about what Shero has done since the Cup win in '09. But trying to undermine what he did leading up to '09 makes it look like you're trying to ignore anything Shero has done right (particularly when you try to dismiss the trade for Neal by saying Shero used Craig Patrick's assets to acquire him). When you are so obviously reaching to try to make Shero look bad, it has the effect of undermining your argument instead.



Chosen when Craig Patrick's head scout, Greg Malone, was still in charge, I'll note.



Actually, those drafts were fantastic. I was trying to figure out how to give credit for them, but the post was getting too long. That said, the previous several drafts were horrible, including one in which one practically had to try to do so poorly in it (2003).

In any case, Shero's drafting is a separate issue from whether the 2009 Cup was won by "Craig Patrick's Team", which is the point I was refuting. I'm just tired of the idea that has been starting to float around that Craig Patrick was this amazing GM who was wrongly fired by the Pens, and Shero merely got lucky to win in 2009. Patrick was washed up at the time he was fired. It definitely wasn't "his team" that won the Cup, any more than it wasn't "Patrick's Team" that won in '91 or '92 (after all, Craig Patrick inherited Mario Lemieux, Zarley Zalapski, Mark Recchi, Craig Simpson, Robbie Brown, etc... and if you question my including Zalapski and Simpson, well, Patrick merely used assets acquired by previous GMs in his trades, so by the same logic as excluding the Kunitz trade was used, those trades don't count either!)



So picks only count if they never get traded? Huh.



So, wait, we can't count picks Shero made if he traded away the player made with the pick, but we also can't count trades Shero made if he traded away assets acquired by previous regimes.

That's an awfully convenient way to cut down on the number of things that "count" in Shero's favor.



I didn't compare it to Shero's. I was refuting the contention that the 2008/2009 team was "Craig Patrick's Team." I dispute the notion that all Shero had to do was show up, and that win would have happened. If that had been the case, they could have just kept Patrick. Looking at how Patrick built a team in his last few years shows that's clearly not the case.



Greg Malone was also the one who decided to draft Sneep, and told Shero not to sign Moulson, but for some reason those last two are being placed solely at Shero's feet.

I don't think everything Shero has done is correct. I just don't understand why people are pining for Craig Patrick. Seriously, Shane Endicott. Patrick thought that guy was a better choice on the roster than Talbot during the 05/06 season.

Personally, though, I do wish a bit more for the Shero from the 2007/2008 timeframe. He cut loose Ouellett, despite him having some success with Malkin, and went didn't let any sentimentality get in the way of dealing Armstrong and Christensen. It does seem like there's been a bit of a change in how much Shero has been willing to let go of roster players that have been around a while.
I am assuming that Shero told Malone to pick the other non-first rounders in 2006. If that's the case, then the only true Shero non-first rounder to see any real time in the NHL is Bortuzzo. Not sure that makes Shero's drafting look better.

One other thing: 8 drafts. All those picks. What do the Pens have to show for it now? You said it's unfair to say just Maatta and Borts. Ok, add Sutter, since he's the only thing on the ice to show for Staal. Bennett if healthy? Ok. Dupuis . . . nah, he was pretty much flipped for Armstrong. Despres wouldn't be playing if everyone was healthy, so you can have Bennett but not him.

Add it all up, and what could a fully healthy Pens team put on the ice post deadline to show for 8 Ray Shero drafts plus a few picks?

Drumroll . . . Sutter, Maatta, Borts, Bennett, Stempniak, Goc.

The drafting has left a lot to be desired, as has the management of the picks. I'm not sure how expanding the terms makes Shero look better. In fact, it may make him look even worse.

EDIT: You're right. Shero had to do more than show up. He had to leverage what Patrick left him. He did it. Even did it well. And, then he became complacent. I'd happily take back the old Ray Shero. But, just as Bylsma became less of a coach than he was once he surrounded himself with yes men, the same can be said of Shero as a manager.

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Old
03-17-2014, 07:56 PM
  #62
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Here you go...

LOL love the "no reward"

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03-18-2014, 12:47 AM
  #63
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I lost any confidence in Shero when he didnt trade Kris Letang last season, let Brendon Morrow walk to see him sign for 1.3 million per year, re-signed Pascal Dupuis and signed Rob Scuderi.

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03-18-2014, 12:54 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by ozpensfan View Post
I lost any confidence in Shero when he didnt trade Kris Letang last season, let Brendon Morrow walk to see him sign for 1.3 million per year, re-signed Pascal Dupuis and signed Rob Scuderi.
He got Morrow right.

The other three were mistakes. For what he COULD have done with 10+M in cap space and the assets he COULD have gotten for Letang, the Pens would've been better off that way than they'd be with Letang, Scuderi, and Dupuis, even if they all were healthy.

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03-18-2014, 02:43 AM
  #65
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What makes people think Brenden Morrow wanted to stay? Hell I wouldn't if I were him, he got to see first hand what kind of an idiot Dan Bylsma is with his line-up decisions. I liked the Morrow trade, we needed a "Gary Roberts" type on the team and he was exactly that, too much man on every shift. Playing that old school brand of hockey that Scary Gary brought with him.

The good about Shero is that he hasn't put this team in a huge hole by trading away assets that have gone on to haunt this team. He has done a lot of good but the bad is what is sticking with us right now because with the injuries, the truth about the Pens depth is outed, people used to brag about it when the Pens had injuries and guys from WBS would come up and play like they belonged, but the system is weak, whatever it is, and the players don't seem to be responding to it as much anymore. For me, the problem is that the GM is blind to this, or doesn't want to do anything in fear of disrupting the team in a negative way. There are 14 games left in the season, a coaching change can either reignite the team or drown them, if I am Shero, I am weighing my options, do you keep the guy you fought for or do you fire him, let one of the guys on the staff take over and promote someone from WBS and name the assistant there the coach and roll with that...we wish.

In any case...

What has come back to bite him in the rear? Nothing yet, time will tell with the players taken with the picks, Hanowski, J. Morrow, and Agostino. I think some of us do hang on to that notion that Shero has made moves and it hasn't come back to haunt the Penguins, but when you look at the roster, how many great changes has he made? The depth of defensemen is nice and all, but there are so many on the team that some play in the ECHL because there is no room. Not to mention guys that will graduate and join WBS next year as well...how do you not move some to acquire some winger prospects that are in the AHL? Or even close to it? The list of wingers that the team can look forward to in the near future is crap, we have high hopes for Archibald (solid in his own right) and others because of this.

I mean what are we expecting for WBS next year in addition to what they have?

Pouliot, Harrington, D'Agostino, Samuelsson, Dumoulin, McNeill, Seymour, Ruopp...

Wingers?

Zlobin, Rust*, Kuhnhackl, Uher, Marcantuoni*...oh my, awesome! Could you imagine if we had Hanowski and Agostino added to that? Or at least Archibald (hopefully).

When Bylsma took over, the team had 25 games left and were out, right now they were sitting at the top where people said the Pens had that 1st spot locked up, now not so much, now I don't see the Pens finishing first at all. If Tampa or Montreal were any better, the Pens would drop to 3rd or 4th, but the 2nd spot is definitely one that the Pens can't screw up badly enough to lose.

But the depth, it's on Shero's shoulders.

Bylsma sticking around, also on Shero's shoulders.

The team wasting another year of Crosby and Malkin's prime years, that's on Shero's shoulders for keeping Bylsma on when he should have walked away from him last year, as well as not doing a better job of using his assets to acquire better depth for wingers.

I mean...you are not going to have a spot for all of these ****ing defensemen.


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03-18-2014, 02:51 AM
  #66
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I wish this team didn't give me flash backs of that stupid country club mentality that it had in the 90's.

What a waste of talent. Now we can look back on 2009 when this team goes back to being a team of wasted potential for the next 10-20yrs.

I still hold out hope though. I wonder if Shero can some how sign some highly touted College FA's this time around, or maybe that JS Dea kid is a diamond in the rough, although with forwards in the Q, very hard to gauge.

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03-18-2014, 02:55 AM
  #67
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This organization will relieve Ray Shero of his duties when one of two things happen.

A. This team fails to make a reasonable fiscal profit at the end of a season.

B. And this is the real answer:

When the season-ticket holders abandon ship, sort of how like they're doing in D.C.

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03-18-2014, 04:20 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by canadianguy77 View Post
This organization will relieve Ray Shero of his duties when one of two things happen.

A. This team fails to make a reasonable fiscal profit at the end of a season.

B. And this is the real answer:

When the season-ticket holders abandon ship, sort of how like they're doing in D.C.
And I'll tell you why it won't happen...

A. This team will make a profit because it has 2 insanely marketable players, one being the most marketable player in the NHL, currently. The team makes the playoffs, they do well in the regular season, they have 40+ wins currently, while having a crap load of injuries, fans are going to come watch a winner, it's the nature of the business. People leave when they stop winning (during the Gen X years for example).

B. Season ticket holders will abandon ship when the team starts to lose promise and start finishing lower in the standings and are barely floating above 8th-9th place. The Caps are in that spot right now, if they were 3rd in the East, the Caps would be doing ok season ticket wise.

If those are the two scenario's that would get Shero fired, then we'll never see Bylsma gone, because he can coach this team into the playoffs, just not all the way to the final dance anymore. The team will always be profitable because of that.


Winning puts rears in the seats, playoffs adds more to the owners pockets, having star athletes like Crosby and Malkin make this team even more profitable with marketing and other sales.

IN the end, it depends on how much Mario likes the direction of this team. He wants a shot at the cup every year, if he feels Bylsma isn't the guy and pressures Shero to fire him, he better. But if they feel as though Shero has lost his grip with the team as well with the direction they want the team to head, he should be fired.

But teams in situations like this, rarely, if ever, fire their GM. The only person that has their head on the chopping block would be coaches, for not having better playoff success.

For example...


Peter Laviolette won the cup in 2005-06, he then missed the playoffs 2 seasons after that and started the 3rd season after a cup victory with a record of 12-11-0-2 before he was fired.

Bylsma won the cup in 2008-09. Since then, the team has been knocked out in the 1st round twice, then in the 2nd round and the ECF once each. But!

They finished 4th, 4th, 4th, and 1st the last 4yrs in the EC, being either 1st or 2nd in their division.

I really hope this is Bylsma's final year and the new coach is the guy that changes the whole country club atmosphere.

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03-19-2014, 02:58 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Honour Over Glory View Post
And I'll tell you why it won't happen...

A. This team will make a profit because it has 2 insanely marketable players, one being the most marketable player in the NHL, currently. The team makes the playoffs, they do well in the regular season, they have 40+ wins currently, while having a crap load of injuries, fans are going to come watch a winner, it's the nature of the business. People leave when they stop winning (during the Gen X years for example).

B. Season ticket holders will abandon ship when the team starts to lose promise and start finishing lower in the standings and are barely floating above 8th-9th place. The Caps are in that spot right now, if they were 3rd in the East, the Caps would be doing ok season ticket wise.

If those are the two scenario's that would get Shero fired, then we'll never see Bylsma gone, because he can coach this team into the playoffs, just not all the way to the final dance anymore. The team will always be profitable because of that.


Winning puts rears in the seats, playoffs adds more to the owners pockets, having star athletes like Crosby and Malkin make this team even more profitable with marketing and other sales.

IN the end, it depends on how much Mario likes the direction of this team. He wants a shot at the cup every year, if he feels Bylsma isn't the guy and pressures Shero to fire him, he better. But if they feel as though Shero has lost his grip with the team as well with the direction they want the team to head, he should be fired.

But teams in situations like this, rarely, if ever, fire their GM. The only person that has their head on the chopping block would be coaches, for not having better playoff success.
The above is why I don't understand why anyone thinks it is even a remote possibility that Shero gets fired any time soon.

Quote:
For example...


Peter Laviolette won the cup in 2005-06, he then missed the playoffs 2 seasons after that and started the 3rd season after a cup victory with a record of 12-11-0-2 before he was fired.
And Jim Rutherford is still the GM there.

There isn't a single team that has fired their GM after making the playoffs for 8 straight years. There aren't too many teams that have ever fired their GM following a season where they made the playoffs. Dale Tallon is one of the few exceptions I can think of, and he screwed up on sending his pending RFAs their qualifying offers.

If the Pens fail miserably in the playoffs again, I'd be very surprised if Shero lost his job.

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