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Tue., Mar. 18, 2014| Blackhawks 2 at Flyers 3 OT

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Old
03-19-2014, 04:56 PM
  #251
hockeyfreak7
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Originally Posted by Jtown View Post
Luke schenn

Highest rate of ozone starts of any flyer 15th in the league

http://www.extraskater.com/players/deployment?pos=D

Plays against the easiest competiton of any flyer defender 9th easiest in the league

http://www.extraskater.com/players/q...?pos=D&page=3#


Here is the troubling part. He plays with a low quality of teammates. ranked 101 out of 139.

http://www.extraskater.com/players/q...m?pos=D&page=3

The players that rank last in that category also make up the players that play against the easiest competition. So the players that play against easier competition than luke also play with worst teammates than luke.


SO the players that play the easiest minutes against the worst compeition and worst teammates include Matt Stoner, Ryan Ellis, John Moore, nick leddy, Brian Lashoff, Gonchar.


All have outproduced schenn other than lashoff and Stoner, and all are significantly cheaper other than Gonchar.

There is a case to be made that Luke schenn is the worst defender in the league when contract is factored in.
You literally just pulled three advanced stats out of your ass and used them to support a conclusion that they don't support. Yet another example of someone using advanced stats poorly.

All you did was prove that LSchenn gets easy ice time. A fact that nobody has denied. How that proves your point is beyond me.

You know who else is on all three lists? Kevin Shattenkirk. Yeah, he sucks just because he gets easy ice time. Nobody's saying LSchenn's a stud. We're just saying he's played well in the role he's been asked to play.

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Old
03-19-2014, 05:05 PM
  #252
Jtown
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Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
You literally just pulled three advanced stats out of your ass and used them to support a conclusion that they don't support. Yet another example of someone using advanced stats poorly.

All you did was prove that LSchenn gets easy ice time. A fact that nobody has denied. How that proves your point is beyond me.

You know who else is on all three lists? Kevin Shattenkirk. Yeah, he sucks just because he gets easy ice time. Nobody's saying LSchenn's a stud. We're just saying he's played well in the role he's been asked to play.
I think if anyone else was making this argument you would be able to at least acknowledge that schenn is one of the worst defenders in the league. You have some bias towards me and that is clouding your judgement.

Do you think Shattenkirk is played in those situation because he is trying to be sheltered or are they trying to maximize one of their most talented offensive dman by putting him in the most advantageous situations. Also he plays 20 minutes a game.

I feel like I have made a solid argument and have backed it up with quantitative data. Instead of criticizing me how about you offer your own defense and present some data to back that up as well.


Edit: also his role is the same as some of the worst dmen in the league who get paid a whole hell of a lot less. If that is the bar being set to evaluate how well he is playing in his role than that should tell you the type of dman he is.

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Old
03-19-2014, 05:18 PM
  #253
hockeyfreak7
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Originally Posted by Jtown View Post
I think if anyone else was making this argument you would be able to at least acknowledge that schenn is one of the worst defenders in the league. You have some bias towards me and that is clouding your judgement.
What? Have you and I ever had a discussion before? This is literally the first time I can recall taking issue with anything you've said, lol.

Quote:
Do you think Shattenkirk is played in those situation because he is trying to be sheltered or are they trying to maximize one of their most talented offensive dman by putting him in the most advantageous situations. Also he plays 20 minutes a game.

I feel like I have made a solid argument and have backed it up with quantitative data. Instead of criticizing me how about you offer your own defense and present some data to back that up as well.
You're absolutely right that they're maximizing the value of Shattenkirk by deploying him in the same way. Same goes for Krug and Yandle who are both on all three lists.

But that still doesn't prove the conclusion you've made.

There is a logical flaw in your process here:

Your claim: LSchenn is the worst in the league.
Your proof: LSchenn has easy ice time.

Okay.......so where is the objective proof of LSchenn's poor performance? Easy ice time is not proof of that.


Quote:
Edit: also his role is the same as some of the worst dmen in the league who get paid a whole hell of a lot less. If that is the bar being set to evaluate how well he is playing in his role than that should tell you the type of dman he is.
Having the same role (#5 defenseman) =/= Being equally effective in said role

This is where you depart from logic. Just because Clayton Stoner is used in the same situations doesn't mean that Clayton Stoner is equally effective in such situations. Just like my earlier point: just because LSchenn and Shattenkirk are used in the same situations doesn't mean that LSchenn is equally effective in such situations.

No offense, but this is a pretty poor attempt at using advanced stats to prove a point. You're going to have to compile a lot more data of LSchenn's actual performance numbers and then weight all mitigating factors against each other to use these stats to make an accurate, objective opinion. I don't have the patience to do so, and not many people do. That's why I get so frustrated on here when I see people make half-assed attempts at using advanced stats to prove points. If you're not willing to go all the way, then you're being deliberately misleading.

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Old
03-19-2014, 05:34 PM
  #254
Jtown
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Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
What? Have you and I ever had a discussion before? This is literally the first time I can recall taking issue with anything you've said, lol.

You're absolutely right that they're maximizing the value of Shattenkirk by deploying him in the same way. Same goes for Krug and Yandle who are both on all three lists.

But that still doesn't prove the conclusion you've made.

There is a logical flaw in your process here:

Your claim: LSchenn is the worst in the league.
Your proof: LSchenn has easy ice time.

Okay.......so where is the objective proof of LSchenn's poor performance? Easy ice time is not proof of that.



Having the same role (#5 defenseman) =/= Being equally effective in said role

This is where you depart from logic. Just because Clayton Stoner is used in the same situations doesn't mean that Clayton Stoner is equally effective in such situations. Just like my earlier point: just because LSchenn and Shattenkirk are used in the same situations doesn't mean that LSchenn is equally effective in such situations.

No offense, but this is a pretty poor attempt at using advanced stats to prove a point. You're going to have to compile a lot more data of LSchenn's actual performance numbers and then weight all mitigating factors against each other to use these stats to make an accurate, objective opinion. I don't have the patience to do so, and not many people do. That's why I get so frustrated on here when I see people make half-assed attempts at using advanced stats to prove points. If you're not willing to go all the way, then you're being deliberately misleading.
My claim: An argument can be made that with contract factored in Luke Schenn is among the worst Dmen in the league.

My prooof: His usage stats, and his quality of competition stats all while playing with better teammates than the dmen who play against worst competition.

Not to mention his point totals and his toi. Just the way the flyers use him tells you what they think of him. Does he do well in that role? It doesn't matter because he has the smallest role of any of the dmen on team and is basically asked to not lose the game for the team. Same as a Clayton Stoner.

Once again if i am using these advanced stats wrong please counter your argument with said stats that back up your claim instead of criticizing how i use them. I want to be wrong about schenn. I really do.

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Old
03-19-2014, 05:35 PM
  #255
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Can't we all just get along! The team is winning right now!

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03-19-2014, 05:38 PM
  #256
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Originally Posted by Prongo View Post
Can't we all just get along! The team is winning right now!
Ok no more schenn analysis from me. So use to that philly sports mentality of never being happy even when winning. The only team that gives me complete satisfaction are the sixers. They Have actually overachieved.

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Old
03-19-2014, 05:43 PM
  #257
Azir
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Originally Posted by Jtown View Post
Ok no more schenn analysis from me. So use to that philly sports mentality of never being happy even when winning. The only team that gives me complete satisfaction are the sixers. They Have actually overachieved.
I was hoping for below 10 wins this season for the sixers so, they too have underachieved. It just depends how you look at it

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03-19-2014, 05:45 PM
  #258
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Originally Posted by Tpinheiro4 View Post
I was hoping for below 10 wins this season for the sixers so, they too have underachieved. It just depends how you look at it
I didn't want them to mess with our 9 win record. Once they got past that I was on the tank bandwagon.

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Old
03-19-2014, 05:52 PM
  #259
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jtown View Post
Luke schenn

Highest rate of ozone starts of any flyer 15th in the league

http://www.extraskater.com/players/deployment?pos=D

Plays against the easiest competiton of any flyer defender 9th easiest in the league

http://www.extraskater.com/players/q...?pos=D&page=3#


Here is the troubling part. He plays with a low quality of teammates. ranked 101 out of 139.

http://www.extraskater.com/players/q...m?pos=D&page=3

The players that rank last in that category also make up the players that play against the easiest competition. So the players that play against easier competition than luke also play with worst teammates than luke.


SO the players that play the easiest minutes against the worst compeition and worst teammates include Matt Stoner, Ryan Ellis, John Moore, nick leddy, Brian Lashoff, Gonchar.


All have outproduced schenn other than lashoff and Stoner, and all are significantly cheaper other than Gonchar.

There is a case to be made that Luke schenn is the worst defender in the league when contract is factored in.
Luke Schenn has been fine, he is much better than Grossmann and Streit defensively. He's gotten better as the year goes on. Your post is so god damn dramatic, far from the worst defenseman in the league

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Old
03-19-2014, 05:52 PM
  #260
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Originally Posted by Jtown View Post
My claim: An argument can be made that with contract factored in Luke Schenn is among the worst Dmen in the league.

My prooof: His usage stats, and his quality of competition stats all while playing with better teammates than the dmen who play against worst competition.
None of these things speaks to his actual record of performance. They speak strictly on how he is deployed by Berube. Nothing more, and nothing less.

Quote:
Not to mention his point totals and his toi. Just the way the flyers use him tells you what they think of him. Does he do well in that role? It doesn't matter because he has the smallest role of any of the dmen on team and is basically asked to not lose the game for the team. Same as a Clayton Stoner.
In the top four, only Grossmann fills a similar niche. Many people think LSchenn could do Grossmann's job with similar effectiveness. Clearly the Flyers have faith in Grossmann, so until he's gone, LSchenn's usage isn't going to change.

That means that you're going to keep judging LSchenn's performance on nothing but elements that are out of his control.

Quote:
Once again if i am using these advanced stats wrong please counter your argument with said stats that back up your claim instead of criticizing how i use them. I want to be wrong about schenn. I really do.
My point is that while advanced stats can create a useful image, they also are not absolute. There is no unifying single stat or set of stats that can paint you a crystal clear image, and using any combo of these stats provides you with a different image.

But really, you're not citing any actual performance stats. Let me be clear-- a case can most definitely be made that LSchenn has had a poor year. But you're not making it here, and I don't really care to make a case either way. I think Schenn has been reliable which is all that matters (to me) given his role.

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Old
03-19-2014, 06:19 PM
  #261
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If anyone wants to hear Saunders' call on Giroux's goal....

http://www.975thefanatic.com/teams/f...on-the-fanatic

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03-19-2014, 06:23 PM
  #262
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Epic

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Old
03-19-2014, 06:36 PM
  #263
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Can't we all just get along! The team is winning right now!
The absolute perfect time to turn on each other.

Happy with the team.

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Old
03-19-2014, 06:48 PM
  #264
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The absolute perfect time to turn on each other.

Happy with the team.
**** you

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03-19-2014, 06:50 PM
  #265
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**** you
Good for nothing low down....

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03-19-2014, 07:26 PM
  #266
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I'm full-on gay for Giroux. Can't even deny it.

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03-19-2014, 08:05 PM
  #267
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03-19-2014, 08:08 PM
  #268
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Good for nothing low down....
Dad?

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Old
03-19-2014, 08:16 PM
  #269
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Fear the beard.


hahahaha that's tremendous.

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03-19-2014, 08:28 PM
  #270
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Fear the beard.


hahahaha that's tremendous.
The Feard.

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Old
03-19-2014, 08:29 PM
  #271
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lol...

this is SPARTA..

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03-19-2014, 08:34 PM
  #272
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'Fear the beard' should be the playoff theme

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03-19-2014, 08:57 PM
  #273
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hold me mother****er im scared.

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03-19-2014, 09:13 PM
  #274
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Re: Playoff (Lord help them to get in!) theme: I would like to suggest "Remember when we sucked?" in reference to the historically worst start to the season.

Giroux: ... since then I've been epic
Timonen: ... since then I got 20 years younger
L Schenn: ... since then I became an NHL defenseman again

Stuff like that.

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Old
03-19-2014, 09:23 PM
  #275
Jtown
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Re: Playoff (Lord help them to get in!) theme: I would like to suggest "Remember when we sucked?" in reference to the historically worst start to the season.

Giroux: ... since then I've been epic
Timonen: ... since then I got 20 years younger
L Schenn: ... since then I became an NHL defenseman again

Stuff like that.


I like this.


Couturier : Hasn't sucked since being breastfed.

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