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The cost of Avery

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Old
02-22-2007, 08:06 PM
  #26
fes
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Im sorry but this is ridiculous, Devils fans complaining about cheap play. For years I watched Bobby Holik come into checks elbows high, but ending and spearing whenever he could get away with it. He did that with the Rangers too. Loved giving the facials too when the refs were around so no one would beat him up. Claude may not have been at his dirtiest on the Devs but he was certainly no Lady Byng winner either. Gilmour could be cheap and it goes back way before that. I remember back in the late 80s or early 90s the Devils had a player named Jamie Huscroft, a "tough guy" who would jump people from behind. Every team has had these "sandpaper" guys on their teams, and if you have one that can play the game well then thats something great too have. So please, step off the soap box and stop acting like the Devils have never had someone of this ilk on their team. Hes draws penalties, gets under peoples skin, sticks up for his teamates, can skate and chip in offensively to a degree. Ill take a bunch of those guys on my team any day.

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02-22-2007, 08:25 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silentisolation666 View Post
I'm hoping not to start a pissing match about this guy, but after reading a lot of the stuff thats come about since tuesday's game I felt the need to make a post here. I'll say first that I am a Devils fan, but I assure you that this post is made as a fan of the sport, and nothing more.

I know regardless I'm going to catch heat from some of you because some people can't put that fact aside, but I don't care because I know what I have to say is the rationale many of you are missing.

First off, has Sean Avery been a spark to your club? Sure. But he's also been like pouring acid in an already open wound too but I don't think you realize that. Sure he got up in Brodeur's face...and I think anyone that knows the guys career knows he ran into him on purpose whether it was soft or not. Had that been Jagr, Straka, or Nylander I don't imagine it would have gone down that way at all or of contact would have ever been made.

The guy is a classless player, and he might have the attitude to spark the team and give them an edge, but he's also a guy that can hold them back because he's not disciplined. So sure you all got your kicks out of him rocking Brodeur in the face, but notice how his tactics did nothing to get inside his head, he didn't budge after that moment. Notice how he took 4 minutes in penalties, and because of the scrum he caused NJ ended up on the powerplay.

Sure NJ didn't score so it didn't matter, but this was also a NJ team playing without 2 of its top offensive guys. And I think you all and I can both agree we don't have a hell of a lot of offense in our depth. So imagine if those 2 guys are in the lineup, which when they are we tend to do much better on powerplays. That could have already put us up a goal or so.

But the biggest thing everyone is missing is, on the play we scored the go-head goal, I think a lot of people failed to realize that during the chaos infront of NJ's net toward the end Avery once again trying to play "his" game runs into and lands ontop of Broduer consequently taking him out of the play, and allowing the Devils breakout to even happen the way it did. Had he been able to back check he might have been in the slot where Parise eventually took the pass to put the first shot on net. But instead he took himself out of the play.

I'm not saying its HIS fault we scored, but if he didn't try his cheap tricks maybe he would have been back in that play like a good player would have been and that game goes to OT.

I know there was a lot of banter about the days of Claude Lemieux in NJ and his antics similar to that of Avery's but like it's been said...he seldom played dirty on our organization. Its not that he didn't, but the things he did that were really dirty were almost only on other teams (particularly Colorado). And again, Lemieux put up great numbers, always had strong playoffs and won the Conn Smythe for a reason. Avery isn't very likely to do that any time soon, but rather put you in a position to lose a game.

You love him now, but when the games REALLY count (although this one did too) and he does something retarded because he can't contain himself and blows your teams opportunity all the things he does that you love aren't going to matter anymore. Plus you also have to take into account that the NY media (from what I have seen at least) is loving what he's doing to an extent, and you know he picks up the paper and basks in it.

The bottom line is, the guy is way too classless for a team like NY. As much as I don't like your team, I respect them and I would expect a move like this from a team like Philly rather than the Rangers. I know how message boards tend to work, and how people are uptight about their opinions but again it was said as a hockey fan and not much more. I more than likely won't respond so I wouldn't waste your time trying to insult my opinion if you don't agree. Just figured it was an alternative perspective some people weren't exactly seeing, that's all.
So basically Avery plays a nasty game and he competes. We had better ship him out on the next flight.

Look, everybody knows Avery can say and do stupid things. However, do not pretend that he has no talent. The guy can play, he just needs to keep his head on straight (yet be a loose cannon enough to play his game). And no, I have no problem with him running a goalie and/or occasionally getting out of position due to his aggression. We have seen plenty of guys on this team out of position (or worse, turning the puck over) this season just because they didn't bother to skate. So I'll keep Avery for now but thanks for your "concern". This is hockey, not ice dancing.

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02-22-2007, 09:25 PM
  #28
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I guess you have a different standard about classless. Is an idividuall classless if he is immoral, but plays a mean goal? For someone whose team has had its fair share of similar players do you think you may be coming off as a Hypocrite? because you are.

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02-22-2007, 09:40 PM
  #29
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The bottom line is that guys like Avery have been around forever; you love him when he's on your team, and you hate him when he's on the other team.

That being said, Avery is an extreme case. The guy never stops talking, be it to the other team or the refs. And we know from his history that his act can wear thin with his own teammates as well.

That's why I'm guarding myself with Avery. I'm hesitant to unequivocably embrace him until I see him behave himself in the clubhouse for an extended period of time.

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02-22-2007, 09:52 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clmetsfan View Post
The bottom line is that guys like Avery have been around forever; you love him when he's on your team, and you hate him when he's on the other team.
Very true.

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02-22-2007, 11:05 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by silentisolation666 View Post
I'm hoping not to start a pissing match about this guy, but after reading a lot of the stuff thats come about since tuesday's game I felt the need to make a post here. I'll say first that I am a Devils fan, but I assure you that this post is made as a fan of the sport, and nothing more.

I know regardless I'm going to catch heat from some of you because some people can't put that fact aside, but I don't care because I know what I have to say is the rationale many of you are missing.

First off, has Sean Avery been a spark to your club? Sure. But he's also been like pouring acid in an already open wound too but I don't think you realize that. Sure he got up in Brodeur's face...and I think anyone that knows the guys career knows he ran into him on purpose whether it was soft or not. Had that been Jagr, Straka, or Nylander I don't imagine it would have gone down that way at all or of contact would have ever been made.

The guy is a classless player, and he might have the attitude to spark the team and give them an edge, but he's also a guy that can hold them back because he's not disciplined. So sure you all got your kicks out of him rocking Brodeur in the face, but notice how his tactics did nothing to get inside his head, he didn't budge after that moment. Notice how he took 4 minutes in penalties, and because of the scrum he caused NJ ended up on the powerplay.

Sure NJ didn't score so it didn't matter, but this was also a NJ team playing without 2 of its top offensive guys. And I think you all and I can both agree we don't have a hell of a lot of offense in our depth. So imagine if those 2 guys are in the lineup, which when they are we tend to do much better on powerplays. That could have already put us up a goal or so.

But the biggest thing everyone is missing is, on the play we scored the go-head goal, I think a lot of people failed to realize that during the chaos infront of NJ's net toward the end Avery once again trying to play "his" game runs into and lands ontop of Broduer consequently taking him out of the play, and allowing the Devils breakout to even happen the way it did. Had he been able to back check he might have been in the slot where Parise eventually took the pass to put the first shot on net. But instead he took himself out of the play.

I'm not saying its HIS fault we scored, but if he didn't try his cheap tricks maybe he would have been back in that play like a good player would have been and that game goes to OT.

I know there was a lot of banter about the days of Claude Lemieux in NJ and his antics similar to that of Avery's but like it's been said...he seldom played dirty on our organization. Its not that he didn't, but the things he did that were really dirty were almost only on other teams (particularly Colorado). And again, Lemieux put up great numbers, always had strong playoffs and won the Conn Smythe for a reason. Avery isn't very likely to do that any time soon, but rather put you in a position to lose a game.

You love him now, but when the games REALLY count (although this one did too) and he does something retarded because he can't contain himself and blows your teams opportunity all the things he does that you love aren't going to matter anymore. Plus you also have to take into account that the NY media (from what I have seen at least) is loving what he's doing to an extent, and you know he picks up the paper and basks in it.

The bottom line is, the guy is way too classless for a team like NY. As much as I don't like your team, I respect them and I would expect a move like this from a team like Philly rather than the Rangers. I know how message boards tend to work, and how people are uptight about their opinions but again it was said as a hockey fan and not much more. I more than likely won't respond so I wouldn't waste your time trying to insult my opinion if you don't agree. Just figured it was an alternative perspective some people weren't exactly seeing, that's all.
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Old
02-22-2007, 11:12 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by silentisolation666 View Post
I get what you're saying, but again I still don't think he's what you needed. Per se. The entire thing about running into Brodeur is obviously debatable on both sides. But if he gets you a goal and contributes to maybe one being scored doesn't that nullify his presence somwhat? Hockey isn't about being even, it's about being ahead.

I think its sort of funny how people are intent on believing its because I like NJ. I've hated the guy long before he ever got to NY. Think as you wish, I still think it's a reasonable discussion
Don't know where I said anything about you being a Jersey fan...

But yes, hockey is about being ahead and so far this team has been better since the Avery trade. Maybe he won't do anything for a team like the Devils but he sure adds something to the Rangers. You are making arguments based on stats, like goals and PIMs when really the argument is about intangibles. He can get the other team off their game, he can draw penalties, he can give his team confidence when the physical play increases, he can wear down the opposition with checking, he seems to play the game alot smarter (Xs & Os) than alot of the other Rangers.

It might be hard for a Jersey fan to see what he can add when you haven't been missing what he brings. You have had the agitators, you have the sandpaper, you have the grit and the checking, you have the intimidators... so when you see an Avery you gloss over those things because your needs are different. Basically, he does make this team better.

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Old
02-22-2007, 11:26 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by ATLANTARANGER View Post
I guess you have a different standard about classless. Is an idividuall classless if he is immoral, but plays a mean goal? For someone whose team has had its fair share of similar players do you think you may be coming off as a Hypocrite? because you are.
Good point.
So people hate Avery because he's "classless". He plays a fiesty, edgy game and yes he is probably the mouthiest player in the league. I would take that any day over a guy who punches his wife or girlfriend, or a guy that sucker punches a guy from behind (Bertuzzi) and breaks the guys neck. To me those are indefensible and beyond classless. So I will be a fan of Avery for the way he plays the game of hockey, no it's not pretty, and it's not politically correct. Characters like Avery do make the game more interesting and there are others out there past and present like him. And until he does something that to me is indefensible I will be a fan.

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02-23-2007, 08:19 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by vlh1220 View Post
To add to this, I watched almost every Kings game this year while Avery was there, and he was as vanilla as can be. The Kings told him to tone it down and he did. He was nothing like this while with the Kings this year. Obviously the Rangers have given him the green light to be as big an ******* as he wants to be. If they tell him to tone it down, I believe he will.
I agree with this, but as far as the Rangers are concerned I wouldn't tell Avery to tone it down one bit, at least not right now. You think Avery got into Brodeur's head? You think Brodeur is glad these two games are over?

Although it's becoming more and more of a longshot, you know the last thing Brodeur wants is to deal with Avery and the Rangers in a playoff series. Avery takes Brodeur out of his comfort zone, which is exactly what we need.

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02-23-2007, 08:20 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silentisolation666 View Post
I'm hoping not to start a pissing match about this guy, but after reading a lot of the stuff thats come about since tuesday's game I felt the need to make a post here. I'll say first that I am a Devils fan, but I assure you that this post is made as a fan of the sport, and nothing more.

I know regardless I'm going to catch heat from some of you because some people can't put that fact aside, but I don't care because I know what I have to say is the rationale many of you are missing.

First off, has Sean Avery been a spark to your club? Sure. But he's also been like pouring acid in an already open wound too but I don't think you realize that. Sure he got up in Brodeur's face...and I think anyone that knows the guys career knows he ran into him on purpose whether it was soft or not. Had that been Jagr, Straka, or Nylander I don't imagine it would have gone down that way at all or of contact would have ever been made.

The guy is a classless player, and he might have the attitude to spark the team and give them an edge, but he's also a guy that can hold them back because he's not disciplined. So sure you all got your kicks out of him rocking Brodeur in the face, but notice how his tactics did nothing to get inside his head, he didn't budge after that moment. Notice how he took 4 minutes in penalties, and because of the scrum he caused NJ ended up on the powerplay.

Sure NJ didn't score so it didn't matter, but this was also a NJ team playing without 2 of its top offensive guys. And I think you all and I can both agree we don't have a hell of a lot of offense in our depth. So imagine if those 2 guys are in the lineup, which when they are we tend to do much better on powerplays. That could have already put us up a goal or so.

But the biggest thing everyone is missing is, on the play we scored the go-head goal, I think a lot of people failed to realize that during the chaos infront of NJ's net toward the end Avery once again trying to play "his" game runs into and lands ontop of Broduer consequently taking him out of the play, and allowing the Devils breakout to even happen the way it did. Had he been able to back check he might have been in the slot where Parise eventually took the pass to put the first shot on net. But instead he took himself out of the play.

I'm not saying its HIS fault we scored, but if he didn't try his cheap tricks maybe he would have been back in that play like a good player would have been and that game goes to OT.

I know there was a lot of banter about the days of Claude Lemieux in NJ and his antics similar to that of Avery's but like it's been said...he seldom played dirty on our organization. Its not that he didn't, but the things he did that were really dirty were almost only on other teams (particularly Colorado). And again, Lemieux put up great numbers, always had strong playoffs and won the Conn Smythe for a reason. Avery isn't very likely to do that any time soon, but rather put you in a position to lose a game.

You love him now, but when the games REALLY count (although this one did too) and he does something retarded because he can't contain himself and blows your teams opportunity all the things he does that you love aren't going to matter anymore. Plus you also have to take into account that the NY media (from what I have seen at least) is loving what he's doing to an extent, and you know he picks up the paper and basks in it.

The bottom line is, the guy is way too classless for a team like NY. As much as I don't like your team, I respect them and I would expect a move like this from a team like Philly rather than the Rangers. I know how message boards tend to work, and how people are uptight about their opinions but again it was said as a hockey fan and not much more. I more than likely won't respond so I wouldn't waste your time trying to insult my opinion if you don't agree. Just figured it was an alternative perspective some people weren't exactly seeing, that's all.
I forgot how classy Claude was.....lol...

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Old
02-23-2007, 09:51 AM
  #36
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So who is more classless??? A player who pops the goalie back for popping him, or the goalie who flops back into the net like he got hit with a bazooka,and then gets right up with a goofy **** eating grin on his face?

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02-23-2007, 10:38 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by shoothepuck View Post
Avery got 4 minutes in penalties, because the gutless refs didn't make the right calls.
Honestly, I think Avery comes with both positives and negatives. The biggest positives are the fact that he plays with a lot of heart and is a nudge for the Rangers, and nudges are always in demand. The biggest negative is why I quoted what I did: Avery has a reputation in the league and will have a lot of penalties called on him, simply because he is Sean Avery.

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Old
02-23-2007, 10:42 AM
  #38
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First let me get this out of the way: I'm not convinced that Brodeur took a dive. Maybe he did, maybe he just lost his balance. That happens too and the way he fell is perfectly normal in that case. He knew exactly how close he was to the net and why would a smart guy like Brodeur risk banging his head on the bar (which he came close to doing) just to take a stupid dive. I'm not saying that Avery shoved him too hard (he just pushed back after Marty lost it and shoved him), I'm saying that Brodeur slipped. He was on ice, afterall.

As for Avery: thus far, he's played just like Matt Barnaby did when he was here. There have been no cheap hits, no attempts to injure. He ran into Brodeur, but he was driving hard to the net with the puck and was never going to be able to get out of his way. A couple of rabbit-punches, standing at the top of the crease in the goalie's face, a few little borderline things to get under opponents' skins, I think that's all part of the game.

Now I know that Avery is capable of things that made me hate him when he was in LA. Matt Barnaby had the same reputation when he came to the Rangers from Tampa, but he dedicated himself to the team, kept the over-the-line stuff out of his game, and became a real contributor, while still being hated by our opponents. If Avery can keep that up, so long as he stays away from submarine hits, boarding, racist taunting, etc., then I'm happy with how he's played.

There's still plenty of time for Avery to become either the heart-and-soul of this team or its albatross. Thus far, I'm pleasantly surprised to say, he's done just fine.

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02-23-2007, 10:56 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by dave4 View Post
I agree with this, but as far as the Rangers are concerned I wouldn't tell Avery to tone it down one bit, at least not right now. You think Avery got into Brodeur's head? You think Brodeur is glad these two games are over?

Although it's becoming more and more of a longshot, you know the last thing Brodeur wants is to deal with Avery and the Rangers in a playoff series. Avery takes Brodeur out of his comfort zone, which is exactly what we need.
I would also hope that the Rangers let Avery be Avery. He was totally ineffective for the Kings. The point I was trying to make is that people think Avery has absolutely no control and is just running amok (sp?) but he played a pretty controlled game for the Kings because they wanted him to. Hopefully the Rangers don't make that mistake because he is a much better player when he plays on the edge. IMO AVery can play the game either way, but a tame Avery is not very effective.

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02-23-2007, 10:59 AM
  #40
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Fact: Avery is the NHL's number one garbage man and I mean that as a compliment.

No one trash talks or is an irritant better in the game today IMO.

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02-23-2007, 01:13 PM
  #41
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First let me get this out of the way: I'm not convinced that Brodeur took a dive. Maybe he did, maybe he just lost his balance. That happens too and the way he fell is perfectly normal in that case. He knew exactly how close he was to the net and why would a smart guy like Brodeur risk banging his head on the bar (which he came close to doing) just to take a stupid dive. I'm not saying that Avery shoved him too hard (he just pushed back after Marty lost it and shoved him), I'm saying that Brodeur slipped. He was on ice, afterall.
He's only been on skates his entire life, I'm sure a little shove would knock him off balance. It's a miracle Avery didn't lose his balance (on the ice no less) when he was shoved by Brodeur. Every time I get shoved to the ground my arms make big circles over my head and my knees give out.

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02-23-2007, 01:22 PM
  #42
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He's only been on skates his entire life, I'm sure a little shove would knock him off balance. It's a miracle Avery didn't lose his balance (on the ice no less) when he was shoved by Brodeur. Every time I get shoved to the ground my arms make big circles over my head and my knees give out.
Yeah, the guy is a hall of fame goaltender. If his balance was that bad then he'd never make it a day in the NHL.

Plus it's not like Avery caught him off-guard. He came up and punched Sean in the face, of course he would have braced for a retaliatory shove -- it's exactly why he initiated the scuffle.

And of course, Brodeur has been diving his entire career. The guy should play in a Speedo for crying out loud. Or a dress.

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02-23-2007, 01:28 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mugerya View Post
He's only been on skates his entire life, I'm sure a little shove would knock him off balance. It's a miracle Avery didn't lose his balance (on the ice no less) when he was shoved by Brodeur. Every time I get shoved to the ground my arms make big circles over my head and my knees give out.
Oh, come on. Sure these guys have been on skates all their lives, that doesn't stop them from falling over sometimes. How many times have you seen players fall over on the ice? It happens all the time. I've seen guys go down like that many times.

Besides, if Brodeur really wanted to dive, it wouldn't have looked anywhere near as funny!

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02-23-2007, 04:33 PM
  #44
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Oh, come on. Sure these guys have been on skates all their lives, that doesn't stop them from falling over sometimes. How many times have you seen players fall over on the ice? It happens all the time. I've seen guys go down like that many times.

Besides, if Brodeur really wanted to dive, it wouldn't have looked anywhere near as funny!
Would it have looked anything like the "fall" when Jagr bumped into him in OT last night? Arms in the air.. knees buckling... head snapping back... Funny how he fell backwards when he got bumped from the side.

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02-23-2007, 05:43 PM
  #45
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islander fan here, so you know i have an unbiased hatred of both your teams avery was a needed element for the rangers; they were too soft and didn't stick up for their most valuable player. shanny's done an admirable job, but that shouldn't be his role. avery will most definitely embarass the rangers at some point with his words or actions, but it was a deal with the devil they had to make.

that being said, brodeur (while being the best goalie i've ever seen) is also one of the biggest prima donnas. not only does he think every call has to go his way, but every rule regarding goaltenders has to get his approval.

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02-23-2007, 06:14 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doublechili4u View Post
that being said, brodeur (while being the best goalie i've ever seen) is also one of the biggest prima donnas. not only does he think every call has to go his way, but every rule regarding goaltenders has to get his approval.
I thought it was a Competition Committee... not the "Brodeur makes up all the rules" dictatorship. He doesnt "approve" rules at all... just represents all goalies in the league on a committee where they had no representation before.

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02-23-2007, 06:31 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by DevFan-RU- View Post
I thought it was a Competition Committee... not the "Brodeur makes up all the rules" dictatorship. He doesnt "approve" rules at all... just represents all goalies in the league on a committee where they had no representation before.
read what i wrote carefully...i said he 'thinks' every rule needs his approval (it's call sarcasm). he's cried enough over the trapezoid rule that i think the devils skate on his frozen tears.


that was sarcasm too.

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02-23-2007, 06:39 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by doublechili4u View Post
read what i wrote carefully...i said he 'thinks' every rule needs his approval (it's call sarcasm). he's cried enough over the trapezoid rule that i think the devils skate on his frozen tears.


that was sarcasm too.
Some sarcasm...

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02-23-2007, 09:11 PM
  #49
BrooklynRangersFan
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IMO this is kind of a pointless thread. You know what you're getting when you acquire Avery. You know that you're taking the bad with the good, but... you ALWAYS take that bad with that good. The penalties drawn vs. the penalties taken tell you why. He's a modern day Claude Lemieux/Esa Tikkanen. You always hate that guy on the other team... and you always want him on yours.

There is a notciable change in the team's performance and attitude since the trade - even though the recent home and home didn't work out the way you'd like, you can't deny that the Rangers went blow for blow with one of the best in the league. A coupla bounces (or crossbars) the other way and the Rangers sweep.

It's legitimate to ask whether Cliche was too much to give up, but it's silly to imply that Avery's addition to the team is a negative.

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Old
02-23-2007, 09:23 PM
  #50
SingnBluesOnBroadway
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrooklynRangersFan View Post
IMO this is kind of a pointless thread. You know what you're getting when you acquire Avery. You know that you're taking the bad with the good, but... you ALWAYS take that bad with that good. The penalties drawn vs. the penalties taken tell you why. He's a modern day Claude Lemieux/Esa Tikkanen. You always hate that guy on the other team... and you always want him on yours.

There is a notciable change in the team's performance and attitude since the trade - even though the recent home and home didn't work out the way you'd like, you can't deny that the Rangers went blow for blow with one of the best in the league. A coupla bounces (or crossbars) the other way and the Rangers sweep.

It's legitimate to ask whether Cliche was too much to give up, but it's silly to imply that Avery's addition to the team is a negative.
Tikkanen and Lemieux aren't fair comparisons really. Avery has their edge but they're both multiple 30 goal scorers. And Avery has never approached that.

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