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Old
03-19-2014, 01:29 PM
  #376
glenngineer
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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
This is exactly the sort of thing I refer to when I suggest that some of all y'all have no clue what true suffering at the hands of a legit train wreck actually is and are spoiled by success. Two years in the hole? Oh how very horrible. WE SHOULD BE SO LUCKY. "Can't get much worse"? If you think being persistently bounced out of the playoffs is so egregious and interminably frustrating, try consistently never making it. It can always be worse. Vastly worse.
I have no clue? I've been a Yankees and cowboys fan since I can remember, close to 40 years. I've seen championships and the valley of death as well so spare me I don't know about suffering.

There is no proof either way if we move forward with what we have versus what replacements could do. I do know looking at track records that 15 years should be enough of a sample size to see what a coach and GM can do. Look at other sports and the longest tenured coaches. Their playoff success is much more grand than Trotz. This is fact, not hyperbole or an uninformed can saying this. Popovich has been with the Spurs for how long and look at his resume. That's what we need to be striving for, not we made it to the playoffs, hallelujah.

Every year 29 teams fail to win the Cup. Difference is some teams learn from their failings whereas others continue to try the same thing over and over yet expect better results. These guys can't get it done and they've proven that. There is nothing that can be said to me that will change my mind on this.

One last thing. It could be vastly better too.

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03-19-2014, 01:51 PM
  #377
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Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
I have no clue? I've been a Yankees and cowboys fan since I can remember, close to 40 years. I've seen championships and the valley of death as well so spare me I don't know about suffering.

There is no proof either way if we move forward with what we have versus what replacements could do. I do know looking at track records that 15 years should be enough of a sample size to see what a coach and GM can do. Look at other sports and the longest tenured coaches. Their playoff success is much more grand than Trotz. This is fact, not hyperbole or an uninformed can saying this. Popovich has been with the Spurs for how long and look at his resume. That's what we need to be striving for, not we made it to the playoffs, hallelujah.

Every year 29 teams fail to win the Cup. Difference is some teams learn from their failings whereas others continue to try the same thing over and over yet expect better results. These guys can't get it done and they've proven that. There is nothing that can be said to me that will change my mind on this.

One last thing. It could be vastly better too.
The true definition of insanity

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03-19-2014, 02:25 PM
  #378
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Originally Posted by 101st_fan View Post
The reality of sports fandom is disappointment over and over again. 15 years is next to nothing in the sports world. Imagine being a Hawks or Rangers fan when they went over 20 years each without a Cup in the pre-expansion age (the league shrunk to six teams between the Hawks wins in 38 and 61) ... yet, 15 years has these boards up in arms (the reality is that they've been up in arms for at least three years ... some members closer to five).
Exactly- 100% spot on.........

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03-19-2014, 02:38 PM
  #379
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I disagree that we've accomplished anything.

100 points is not the accomplishment it once was with the invention of the 3 point game. Usually anywhere between 9-11 teams score 100 points a year these days.

In 2009/10 - 11 teams reached 100 points. That's over 30% of the entire league!


This is still a league where over half the teams make the playoffs. So that's no great feat either.

We don't have a single division banner

Crowing about regular season success is like celebrating a participation trophy
I don't think I said anything about accomplishments- you said we have had nothing but mediocre hockey (or not that good), and I was responding to that.

Averaging 100 points a season for a 7 year span is not mediocre and not "not that good"- period- that is not up for debate by any reasonable person. Even with the rules changes, I will take a 100 point season any day of the week......

I agreed we have underachieved in the playoffs and are in a down period right now. No argument there-

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Old
03-19-2014, 03:46 PM
  #380
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Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
I have no clue? I've been a Yankees and cowboys fan since I can remember, close to 40 years. I've seen championships and the valley of death as well so spare me I don't know about suffering.
Hm. Two iconic teams in their sports that are generally known for strong, lasting historic dynasties and lots of bandwagon fans as a direct result of same. Gotta say, when I want to discuss sports suffering experience, I generally don't cite my Buckeye football fandom as a demonstration of same, no matter how badly things went with certain national title games and the end of the Tressel era. I'm afraid I remain unconvinced.

Quote:
Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
There is no proof either way if we move forward with what we have versus what replacements could do. I do know looking at track records that 15 years should be enough of a sample size to see what a coach and GM can do. Look at other sports and the longest tenured coaches. Their playoff success is much more grand than Trotz. This is fact, not hyperbole or an uninformed can saying this. Popovich has been with the Spurs for how long and look at his resume. That's what we need to be striving for, not we made it to the playoffs, hallelujah.
Four championships in 15 years? There is literally not a single team in the NHL - long-tenured personnel or otherwise - that can even approach that resume over a similar time period. This is absurd.

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Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
Every year 29 teams fail to win the Cup. Difference is some teams learn from their failings whereas others continue to try the same thing over and over yet expect better results.
And boy, would it be terrible if that's what Poile and Trotz were actually doing. They have, in fact, made regular adjustments throughout the years, and judging by Poile's recent comments are about to do so again (if they weren't I'd be calling for heads too). Don't confuse reputation with reality.

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Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
These guys can't get it done and they've proven that. There is nothing that can be said to me that will change my mind on this.
...then why are you in this debate to begin with? Part of the point of debate is to have one's assumptions and perceptions challenged. If you're not open to alternative possibilities, then you're just proselytizing.

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Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
One last thing. It could be vastly better too.
It could. But the methods being suggested don't exactly have that as the most likely outcome. Planning on catching lightning in a bottle by spontaneously hiring all-star FO personnel is not a plan at all.

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Old
03-23-2014, 11:17 AM
  #381
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MDZ getting scratched is just ridiculous. He hasn't played with Jones which I thought was the point of the trade. At this point the season is a formality, why not see if that pair actually works or maybe give Jones the night off.

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03-23-2014, 11:42 AM
  #382
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This is one of the worst season's Trotz has ever coached IMO.

So many countless questionable decisions. Honestly, he has had two horrific years as a head coach, and really, it all started with the Phoenix series where he showed his true hand.

Role players over talent.

The microcosm of the Predators under Barry Trotz's leadership: Go watch game 5 of the Hawks/Predators series:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kt2Lg25SQFk

Trotz should have been fired after this series. I still cannot fathom how he retained his job AFTER this series and AFTER the Phoenix debacle. Turns in two straight seasons of pathetic Predator hockey while "getting back to the Predator's identitiy."

Poile is another matter.

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Old
03-23-2014, 01:14 PM
  #383
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At least we have some slight murmurings that Poile and Trotz are potentially beginning to diverge philosophically. There might be hope after all.

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03-23-2014, 03:20 PM
  #384
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Originally Posted by hockey diva View Post
MDZ getting scratched is just ridiculous. He hasn't played with Jones which I thought was the point of the trade. At this point the season is a formality, why not see if that pair actually works or maybe give Jones the night off.
He started his first few games with Jones.

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Old
03-23-2014, 04:33 PM
  #385
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Originally Posted by hockey diva View Post
MDZ getting scratched is just ridiculous. He hasn't played with Jones which I thought was the point of the trade. At this point the season is a formality, why not see if that pair actually works or maybe give Jones the night off.
Not to mention they actually played well. I feel like Trotz is making line up moves to win games so we can get in the playoffs. We are out of it, might as well build chemistry for next year, assuming we improve..

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03-23-2014, 04:37 PM
  #386
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Originally Posted by Enoch View Post
This is one of the worst season's Trotz has ever coached IMO.

So many countless questionable decisions. Honestly, he has had two horrific years as a head coach, and really, it all started with the Phoenix series where he showed his true hand.

Role players over talent.

The microcosm of the Predators under Barry Trotz's leadership: Go watch game 5 of the Hawks/Predators series:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kt2Lg25SQFk

Trotz should have been fired after this series. I still cannot fathom how he retained his job AFTER this series and AFTER the Phoenix debacle. Turns in two straight seasons of pathetic Predator hockey while "getting back to the Predator's identitiy."

Poile is another matter.
IM STILL PISSED. That was a series we should have one, and don't even get me started on the Coyotes series. I agree Trotz and management handled the Phoenix debacle very poorly.

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Old
03-23-2014, 06:36 PM
  #387
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Originally Posted by Enoch View Post
This is one of the worst season's Trotz has ever coached IMO.

So many countless questionable decisions. Honestly, he has had two horrific years as a head coach, and really, it all started with the Phoenix series where he showed his true hand.

Role players over talent.

The microcosm of the Predators under Barry Trotz's leadership: Go watch game 5 of the Hawks/Predators series:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kt2Lg25SQFk

Trotz should have been fired after this series. I still cannot fathom how he retained his job AFTER this series and AFTER the Phoenix debacle. Turns in two straight seasons of pathetic Predator hockey while "getting back to the Predator's identitiy."

Poile is another matter.
I'm absolutely certain Poile had as much to do with Radulov sitting for rule breaking as Trotz.

In reality, with a s*** first line of SK-Fisher-Erat, Trotz should be applauded for getting that team to the 2nd round. Our 2nd line was **** too, until the mentally challenged, yet talented Radulov came back to play Poile for a fool again.

Poile can start saying we need our forwards to score more-- No *** Sherlock. We've known that for our whole lives, yet his answer to that has been to go out and get guys like Hendricks, Cullen, Nystrom, Staalberg, etc, etc, etc.

We either have the worst or 2nd-to-worse group of forwards (between us and Buffalo). That's GM problem, not a coaching problem.

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03-23-2014, 06:44 PM
  #388
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Dulz. I hear you. Like I said, Poile is another matter.

I disagree on your assessment on being a boon getting past Detroit. We outclassed Detroit significantly.

Phoenix was a colossal disaster top to bottom.

Our forward construction is horrific, but it is something Trotz was implicitly a part of, in fact praised. Clearly, it was flawed, and many of us foresaw exactly what we see taking place offensively. Still, despite the bad construction, you still have to question Cullen on the fourth line interchangeably with Stallberg, etc., in the lineup construction this year.

Both have huge roles in the current situation.

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03-24-2014, 12:39 AM
  #389
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If only one, Trotz.

I personally think both should he fired.

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03-24-2014, 10:19 AM
  #390
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I really, REALLY, think we need Trotz to go. I know Poile has had his fair share of dumb, but he got us FF and Jarnkrok for dirt cheap. We have the defensive potential, now we need a coach who can develop offensive talent. Think about it, we've got young skilled guys (assuming we draft a skilled forward in the draft ie Draisaitl, Ritchie, Ehlers). This off season is the time to do it. With the possibility of throwing money at Moulson or Vanek and hope it sticks..

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03-24-2014, 10:20 AM
  #391
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Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
I'm absolutely certain Poile had as much to do with Radulov sitting for rule breaking as Trotz.

In reality, with a s*** first line of SK-Fisher-Erat, Trotz should be applauded for getting that team to the 2nd round. Our 2nd line was **** too, until the mentally challenged, yet talented Radulov came back to play Poile for a fool again.

Poile can start saying we need our forwards to score more-- No *** Sherlock. We've known that for our whole lives, yet his answer to that has been to go out and get guys like Hendricks, Cullen, Nystrom, Staalberg, etc, etc, etc.

We either have the worst or 2nd-to-worse group of forwards (between us and Buffalo). That's GM problem, not a coaching problem.
Poile got some top 6 potential for ****. Its up to Trotz to develop them as such, and I don't think he can do that. Sure, Trotz can influences guys, who are established, to up their game. But he cant develop offense.

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03-24-2014, 12:25 PM
  #392
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It is not up to Trotz to develop any player. It is job to manage the assets he has and produce wins. While he has a lot of input to what GMDP does in player selection both must agree on the role each plays. Poile has a Director of Player Development. Currently that's Scott Nichol it his responsibility to oversee prospect development and report to Poile the status of each ones progress. Now is the organization using this tool or is Scooter just a paid former player?????

Theres a lot of blame for the current roster and everyone in the organization has to take a bite of the sammich.

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03-24-2014, 04:00 PM
  #393
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Coaches don't develop players?

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03-24-2014, 04:14 PM
  #394
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Originally Posted by RCola88 View Post
Poile got some top 6 potential for ****. Its up to Trotz to develop them as such, and I don't think he can do that. Sure, Trotz can influences guys, who are established, to up their game. But he cant develop offense.
I like how our 2 top franchise scorers are **** in your mind. That just goes to show how bad Poile is at getting talent in here.

Forsberg and Jarnkrok aren't even star players in the AHL. If you putting all faith in them that they are going to come to the NHL and make us offensively relevant, that's unrealistic expectations. What are you expectations for them and when will they meet them?

Poile has driven this franchise to mediocrity and now it has gotten worse
- Horrible Star player relations and asset mgmnt
- Horrible at drafting offensive players.. a trend spanning 30 yrs
- Vastly overpays at the deadline for mediocre talent (AK, Guastad, Witt, Gill, etc, etc)
- Too complacent and doesn't address long-term needs. Why Suter wanted out and Weber was willing to leave.
- Not proactive. All significant FA signing had to call us.
- Can't get a pulse of his players (Radulov, Suter, Weber, others)
- Compiled the most expensive 3rd and 4th line in the history of the NHL after getting the green light to spend to the cap.

He has GOT to go. We will get no where with him.

I'm neutral on Trotz. No coach will take this roster anywhere. At Least 80% of the time, Trotz has overachieved given the talent level.

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03-24-2014, 04:40 PM
  #395
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I agree with the bottom line reasoning on Poile. At the same time, he has done an excellent job of finding defensive stars and goaltending stars in Nashville whether that is from the people around him, coaching, or scouting. He deserves credit for that. He is also a man of character that has been a respectable intro into the league for the preds.

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03-24-2014, 05:13 PM
  #396
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Originally Posted by Byrddog View Post
It is not up to Trotz to develop any player. It is job to manage the assets he has and produce wins. While he has a lot of input to what GMDP does in player selection both must agree on the role each plays. Poile has a Director of Player Development. Currently that's Scott Nichol it his responsibility to oversee prospect development and report to Poile the status of each ones progress. Now is the organization using this tool or is Scooter just a paid former player?????

Theres a lot of blame for the current roster and everyone in the organization has to take a bite of the sammich.
That's not entirely true. Trotz makes the line up, Trotz does the benching,and Trotz does the coaching. I don't even see how management can develop a player, finding a player, sure, that's on them. But as far as being on the ice and coaching, Poile doesnt do that, Trotz and the coaching staff does, and as a person who plays hockey thats where it comes from the most (Coaching). It could be on the other coaching staff too, like Nichol, but those parts have been changed before and we get the same result.

I have no confidence in our coaching staff with offense anymore, they get the most out of players with less skill. But that is where it stops, yeah Kariya and Arnott I know but they already knew the game and were established, so what could Trotz do? Say "yeah you cant take risks or play a full on offensive game" to Kariya.. that would go over well. Trotz will never do that to young offensive potential talent, ever.

Now I am not blaming Trotz for everything, I mean we havent gotten a damn thing when it comes to forward talent EVER, compared to majority of other teams. Closest thing was Radulov, and well yeah. So, that does fall on management as well, but Poile's trying to save his ass with these great trades, Trotz is just pissing the fans off even more.

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03-24-2014, 05:48 PM
  #397
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From Webster's.

Coach: : a person who teaches and trains the members of a sports team and makes decisions about how the team plays during games.

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03-24-2014, 05:51 PM
  #398
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I think Poile and Trotz are hand in had. Poile budget restrainst have him always trying to find diamond in the roughs. Trotz team against the coyotes was the better team but Trotz can only coach from the underdog not the favorite. Wilson and Smith haven't developed into great players he only develops defenseman. I hope the owners can see that.

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03-24-2014, 05:51 PM
  #399
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Originally Posted by triggrman View Post
Coaches don't develop players?
We could easily get into parsing words and nuances between things such as "polish" and "develop". If a player is NHL ready, there isn't much room for development. If he isn't, there is a developmental league.

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03-24-2014, 06:06 PM
  #400
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Generally speaking, offense can't be taught. Who taught Crosby? Who taught Weber how to hit a slap shot? Trotz?

Defense is much more about x's and o's where offensive ability is generally innate at a young age. Defense is more teachable overall.

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