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Why was beaulieu sent down?

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Old
03-23-2014, 12:43 PM
  #51
JayKing
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Originally Posted by overlords View Post
Beaulieu has been more effective than Tinordi and it wasn't particularly close. What is ridiculous is that anyone needs an explanation for this.

Regardless, both should be in the lineup over our sub-3rd pairing duo.

inb4 intangibles+experience
This. You can say what you want about Tinordi being bigger, stronger,etc but at the end of the day, Beaulieu was better.

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03-23-2014, 12:51 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Beaulieu may or may not have an attitude. He competes on the ice.
By all accounts (and I've only watched a couple of recent Hamilton games, but he wasn't good in those) he doesn't compete nearly enough on the ice at the moment.

This decision is totally merit based.

Quite funny that a lot of the people moaning about it are the same ones who moan that other players aren't held responsible.

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Old
03-23-2014, 12:59 PM
  #53
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Bad taste. But great comeback.
Not a comeback at all. It's exactly what I was alluding to, but I was more subtle...you know the good taste thing...........

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03-23-2014, 01:00 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Corncob View Post
By all accounts (and I've only watched a couple of recent Hamilton games, but he wasn't good in those) he doesn't compete nearly enough on the ice at the moment.

This decision is totally merit based.

Quite funny that a lot of the people moaning about it are the same ones who moan that other players aren't held responsible.
He could be upset with the decision to send him down, but he needs to not let it effect his play...he probably feels he brings more than Murray, Cube, Tinordi...right or wrong...

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03-23-2014, 01:02 PM
  #55
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Beaulieu will get recalled once the Bulldogs' season is over.

I guess they chose the physicality of Tinordi for the last stretch over Beaulieu's puck moving abilities. That is all imho.

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03-23-2014, 03:10 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by BLONG7 View Post
He could be upset with the decision to send him down, but he needs to not let it effect his play...he probably feels he brings more than Murray, Cube, Tinordi...right or wrong...
Thre was no real reason to be upset. It was the Olympics brake, two full weeks to play and improve at AHL level. If he reacted badly to that, no wonder they kept him down there.

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03-23-2014, 03:39 PM
  #57
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He could help our 4th line

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Old
03-23-2014, 04:10 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Scriptor View Post
Your opinion stated as fact. So out in left field it's mind numbing. You obviously don't watch the games. Thanks for participating
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Originally Posted by overlords View Post
Intellectually lazy reply #131. Bring an argument to the table, please.
You should give yourself an infraction. Your reply is just as insulting as telling a poster to go **** themselves.

That's the problem with this board. Posters can to call management dumb, the coach stupid and incompetent, make fun of DD, Murray, Bouliion etc., totally based on ones opinion and yet we can't call out these posters. We are supposed to believe that Bergevin and Therrien, (chosen by ownership after an extensive search - by a very shrewd management team - Molson family and other business interests), to lead one of 30 elite hockey clubs in the world yet according to some they are not even qualified to run a senior beer league team.

And yet, we need to bring an argument to the table - which is useless because positions are based on personal preferences or preconceived beliefs that won't change. You know there are still posters that want to bash Price and will upon the first opportunity.

This reminds me of the of the creationists or the climate change deniers. They make so much noise that media now need to give them an equal voice even if they deserve to be treated as quacks. Scientists now have to debate irrefutable scientific facts in the name of discourse.

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Old
03-23-2014, 06:08 PM
  #59
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[QUOTE=JohnnyB11;82135135]*SIGH* - Foolishness. No, it DOESN'T have to be something in the dressing room. To come to that conclusion and justify it by saying what he's 'known' for (in your opinion) is flawed.[/QUOTE

lets hear it genius, I can't wait to crush your reply, this will be fun

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Old
03-23-2014, 06:44 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habnot View Post
You should give yourself an infraction. Your reply is just as insulting as telling a poster to go **** themselves.

That's the problem with this board. Posters can to call management dumb, the coach stupid and incompetent, make fun of DD, Murray, Bouliion etc., totally based on ones opinion and yet we can't call out these posters. We are supposed to believe that Bergevin and Therrien, (chosen by ownership after an extensive search - by a very shrewd management team - Molson family and other business interests), to lead one of 30 elite hockey clubs in the world yet according to some they are not even qualified to run a senior beer league team.

And yet, we need to bring an argument to the table - which is useless because positions are based on personal preferences or preconceived beliefs that won't change. You know there are still posters that want to bash Price and will upon the first opportunity.

This reminds me of the of the creationists or the climate change deniers. They make so much noise that media now need to give them an equal voice even if they deserve to be treated as quacks. Scientists now have to debate irrefutable scientific facts in the name of discourse.
It is a scientific fact that Beaulieu can help our team. Findings published in Scientific Defenseman:

B (x puck-carries) - rookie mistakes/82g = p +/- Subban + attitude

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Old
03-23-2014, 06:54 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vokiel View Post
Beaulieu will get recalled once the Bulldogs' season is over.

I guess they chose the physicality of Tinordi for the last stretch over Beaulieu's puck moving abilities. That is all imho.
And then we don't play Tinner cause he makes one mistake

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Old
03-23-2014, 06:54 PM
  #62
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Is he an NHL'er? Yes. Will making him compete make him a better player? Yes.

He gets a bad rep on the ice for having a poor "compete-level"- but that's simply fans misinterpreting his style of play. He has a fluid / smooth skating style that to some seems "lackadaisical"- which really isn't the case.

I like Beau' because he also has a little fire in him. He may be young and maybe even slightly immature at the moment- but that cockiness has some perks to it.

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03-23-2014, 07:44 PM
  #63
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More talented than some D on the Habs sure, but not a fan at all, wouldn't be crushed if he's dealt for a bigger piece, Tinordi on the big club is a better idea


Last edited by The Doors: 04-12-2014 at 10:10 AM.
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Old
03-23-2014, 07:56 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habnot View Post
You should give yourself an infraction. Your reply is just as insulting as telling a poster to go **** themselves.
There was zero wrong with what he wrote.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habnot View Post
That's the problem with this board. Posters can to call management dumb, the coach stupid and incompetent, make fun of DD, Murray, Bouliion etc., totally based on ones opinion and yet we can't call out these posters. We are supposed to believe that Bergevin and Therrien, (chosen by ownership after an extensive search - by a very shrewd management team - Molson family and other business interests), to lead one of 30 elite hockey clubs in the world yet according to some they are not even qualified to run a senior beer league team.

And yet, we need to bring an argument to the table - which is useless because positions are based on personal preferences or preconceived beliefs that won't change. You know there are still posters that want to bash Price and will upon the first opportunity.

This reminds me of the of the creationists or the climate change deniers. They make so much noise that media now need to give them an equal voice even if they deserve to be treated as quacks. Scientists now have to debate irrefutable scientific facts in the name of discourse.
Really, really bad analogy.

If anything it would be MT's supporters who'd fall on the side of the creationists. Tons of evidence that he's a terrible coach and folks come here with it, but the apologists (ie creationists if your analogy was done properly) simply ignore it and say "Hey, look at the record!"

Maybe I've misread your post - and I apologize if I did - but it sure seems like you're saying that folks are criticizing management without any supportive data and that's just not the case.

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Old
03-23-2014, 09:04 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by DJ Breadman View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyB11 View Post
*SIGH* - Foolishness. No, it DOESN'T have to be something in the dressing room. To come to that conclusion and justify it by saying what he's 'known' for (in your opinion) is flawed.
lets hear it genius, I can't wait to crush your reply, this will be fun
The only thing you'll crush is your reputation.

I don't claim to be a genius, but stating that Beaulieu must be a problem in the room since he's not with the big club right now is ridiculous. He'll be there soon enough, and I'd suggest you stick to facts.


Last edited by JohnnyB11: 03-24-2014 at 04:54 AM.
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Old
03-23-2014, 09:55 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
There was zero wrong with what he wrote.

Really, really bad analogy.

If anything it would be MT's supporters who'd fall on the side of the creationists. Tons of evidence that he's a terrible coach and folks come here with it, but the apologists (ie creationists if your analogy was done properly) simply ignore it and say "Hey, look at the record!"

Maybe I've misread your post - and I apologize if I did - but it sure seems like you're saying that folks are criticizing management without any supportive data and that's just not the case.
What data is specific to determining who's a good coach / bad coach? Or is it more subjective opinion on line combinations, systems, player utilization, treatment of favorite players etc.

The only data that is significant in IMO are wins and losses.

Again, Therrien is not necessarily my cup of tea but he must find ways to win with the roster he is given - and for that - the number speak for themselves.

Most of the continuous criticism voiced on this board is
- his treatment of Subban
- playing DD, Murray, Boullion
- not playing youngsters

I don't see any data here....just opinions

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03-23-2014, 10:01 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Habnot View Post
What data is specific to determining who's a good coach / bad coach? Or is it more subjective opinion on line combinations, systems, player utilization, treatment of favorite players etc.

The only data that is significant in IMO are wins and losses.

Again, Therrien is not necessarily my cup of tea but he must find ways to win with the roster he is given - and for that - the number speak for themselves.

Most of the continuous criticism voiced on this board is
- his treatment of Subban
- playing DD, Murray, Boullion
- not playing youngsters

I don't see any data here....just opinions
29th in 5 on 5 scoring.

A pp that has sunk from 1st at the beginning of the year to one that has fallen all the way to middle of the pack.

Year over year totals that are worse for almost every player in our lineup.

Outshot most nights, outchanced most nights...

A team that has barely scored as many goals as its allowed despite getting world class goaltending. This with a lineup that is close to identical to the one iced last year.

Two of the worst statistical defensemen in the league who've gotten heavy icetime when they've played with one of them taking a regular shift on the PP when he's in the lineup with no results to speak of on it.

The data is there. You can choose to ignore it if you wish but its very clear that MT is one of the worst coaches in the league. And this doesn't even begin to address the way he's called out his players in the press and benched our Norris winner while allowing lesser players to make mistakes and continue playing...

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Old
03-23-2014, 10:33 PM
  #68
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I wonder if fans who are lukewarm about Beaulieu see him as another Hainsey.

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Old
03-24-2014, 12:40 AM
  #69
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This organization OVER-values experience big time. Francis Bouillon!? WTF is this? It's like Brisebois all over again. This guy never was special even at his best and our HC treats him like some sort of legend. I'm convinced if we never dealt McDonagh, he'd have rotted in Hamilton or the press box behind Gill, Spacek, Kaberle, Bergeron, Mara and Weber and never developed the proper way. I'm convinced of that. I agree Tinordi and Beaulieu at the same time is risky but one should be in, not both out like right now.

And it's no less risky than playing Bouillon, Murray and Weaver at the same time and giving that 38yo Frankie B top line minutes like he's the Seabrook to Subban's Keith. In what ****ing league does this make sense? He's not a former all-star who can teach and develop PK. PK already has forgotten more than Bouillon would ever know about excellent hockey! Our coach is a dinosaur and I'm disappointed Bergevin goes along with it all. Why even draft these dmen in the 1st round if you hold them back just to get some Ws and a possible 1st round playoff gate revenue?

It doesn't help the long-term plans for development. This attitude has been prevailing for too long in Montreal. This franchise once gave players like Mathieu Schneider, Eric Desjardins, Sylvain Lefebrve and Lyle Odelein (not a first rounder among them) chances and let go vets who couldn't keep up with them anymore (Lalor, Ludwig, Green, Svoboda, sadly Chelios but that was neither here nor there). Today we punish the rookies and make them have to play 3 times as good to usurp a plug who'll be forgotten in 3 years like Murray, Weaver or Bouillon.

Don't bring up the Red Wings "Let them nurture in the AHL for 3-4 years" argument cause Hamilton ain't run as well as Grand Rapids and their youngsters have always been held back cause they'd barely get to play on the big club with all the true studs on the pro roster. The Nyquist, Sheahan, Smith, Jurco, Tatar, etc. guys have been waiting cause Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Franzen, Kronwall, were healthy and more deserving. What are we holding back our youth in favour of? People like Bourque, Gionta, Bouillon, Murray, Weaver, hell even Parros and Briere.

People who should be out of this organization within a year if our GM as any ******* sense of how to build a long-term thing. A much more inferior class of veterans to Detroit's. This franchise's coaches allergies to developing youngsters through the growing pains has been poor for a while. Plekanec, Subban, Gallagher and Pacioretty succeeded because they have confidence and poise that's rare. No thanks to constant benchings and scratchings from Carbo, Martin and Therrien.

But the ones without that need it brought out in them and Detroit does that so well. We do not. We've gone through so many prospects, especially on D, who could not gain it without special handling. Thank God Markov broke onto the Habs when we were terrible and he could stand out over the AHL garbage he played with. When left to their own devices and treated like a yo-yo, most prospects will not grow. Don't let Eller, Tinordi, Beaulieu, Pateryn, Leblanc and Galchenyuk all be the next ones to fall through the cracks or not meet their full potential.

I wish we could look past the media and the bottom line just for once for a few years. Chicago had nothing to lose when they built themselves from zeros to champs. They'd dwindled attention down to near nothing over years of losing but we've never had that distinction so there's constant pressure to perform NOW and it comes at the cost of true player progress and growth. Those NHL cities (ie all the US cities) where the papers cover other teams when there's losing have it real good. They can take their time to do it right and not get raked over the coals by fans and media in massive numbers.

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Old
03-24-2014, 11:52 AM
  #70
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Beaulieu isn't ready at the NHL level right now. He needs alot more conditioning. He isnt even dominating at the amateur level, how can we expect him to QB the pp ? He needs another year in Hamilton IMHO.

Honestly the best call up option we have right now is Patyrn whos been playing great. But hes not a PP type D. I hate bouillon as much as the next guy but we don't have much depth after Markov/Subban.

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Old
03-24-2014, 12:40 PM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
29th in 5 on 5 scoring.
More of an indictment of the roster he has. When given lemons you make lemonade.

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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
A pp that has sunk from 1st at the beginning of the year to one that has fallen all the way to middle of the pack.
This is coaching, but to be fair, the head coach is not the primary responsible for special teams.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Year over year totals that are worse for almost every player in our lineup.
Outshot most nights, outchanced most nights...

A team that has barely scored as many goals as its allowed despite getting world class goaltending. This with a lineup that is close to identical to the one iced last year.
As you said, this has been the issue before Therrien and mostly because of the Gainey reboot. With the roster we have, you can argue that it's the only way to play and make the playoffs. That is undeniably supported by Therrien's won/loss record.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Two of the worst statistical defensemen in the league who've gotten heavy icetime when they've played with one of them taking a regular shift on the PP when he's in the lineup with no results to speak of on it.

The data is there. You can choose to ignore it if you wish but its very clear that MT is one of the worst coaches in the league. And this doesn't even begin to address the way he's called out his players in the press and benched our Norris winner while allowing lesser players to make mistakes and continue playing...
The effect of his ice management is a matter of opinion. Your points might be valid, but it doesn't mean the team would have a better record.

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Old
03-24-2014, 02:45 PM
  #72
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More of an indictment of the roster he has. When given lemons you make lemonade.
So how do you explain that virtually the exact same roster was able to be near the top in the league last season? And how every single player save Desharnais has regressed this year?

The only significant personnel change from last season (not counting Vanek) is Diaz and Ryder out, Murray and Briere in, which seems to be something the coach is fully in support of.

The Habs have guys in the discussion of best defenseman and goalie in the league. Pacioretty is a 3 time 30 goal scorer and possession monster. Plekanec is a top flight two way center. Markov is still a great talent.

I get it, the Habs have had a crappy roster for so long that fans are used to it. It isn't true anymore, this roster is not one that should be second last in the league in scoring goals. It's good enough that Galchenyuk has been on the 3rd line most of the year and it hasn't been unreasonable for him to be there.

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Old
03-24-2014, 03:43 PM
  #73
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So how do you explain that virtually the exact same roster was able to be near the top in the league last season? And how every single player save Desharnais has regressed this year?

The only significant personnel change from last season (not counting Vanek) is Diaz and Ryder out, Murray and Briere in, which seems to be something the coach is fully in support of.

The Habs have guys in the discussion of best defenseman and goalie in the league. Pacioretty is a 3 time 30 goal scorer and possession monster. Plekanec is a top flight two way center. Markov is still a great talent.

I get it, the Habs have had a crappy roster for so long that fans are used to it. It isn't true anymore, this roster is not one that should be second last in the league in scoring goals. It's good enough that Galchenyuk has been on the 3rd line most of the year and it hasn't been unreasonable for him to be there.
A big part of the regression is how other teams adjusted to the Habs this season. Before last season, Montreal was a bottom-three team playing Jacques Martin's leftover defensive style of hockey. Suddenly, in 2013, Therrien came in and introduced a quick-transition game. Our D moved the puck fast and forward, and because the opposition wasn't expecting it, we took 'em by surprise and scored a ton of goals.

This year the opposition adjusted and cut off our transition at the source, pressuring our D deep in our end and forcing mistakes and turnovers. The moment our dmen got the puck, an opposing forward was on him, preventing him from moving it or forcing him into a desperate long pass. Habs D isn't big or mobile enough to make them pay for committing that deep in our end. No coincidence that softer dmen like Diaz couldn't adjust -- with no time to skate or pass his game was neutralized. So all those fancy first-passes dried up, along with gaining the neutral zone and controlling the play into the o-zone.

Beaulieu can give us back some of what we lost -- the ability to control the puck from our end out. Right now, everybody except Subban is a turnover risk in our zone, which makes our forwards play a more cautious game, knowing we'll probably get hemmed in. Beaulieu will undoubtedly make mistakes, but he brings what we need very badly.

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03-24-2014, 04:19 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Lshap View Post
A big part of the regression is how other teams adjusted to the Habs this season. Before last season, Montreal was a bottom-three team playing Jacques Martin's leftover defensive style of hockey. Suddenly, in 2013, Therrien came in and introduced a quick-transition game. Our D moved the puck fast and forward, and because the opposition wasn't expecting it, we took 'em by surprise and scored a ton of goals.

This year the opposition adjusted and cut off our transition at the source, pressuring our D deep in our end and forcing mistakes and turnovers. The moment our dmen got the puck, an opposing forward was on him, preventing him from moving it or forcing him into a desperate long pass. Habs D isn't big or mobile enough to make them pay for committing that deep in our end. No coincidence that softer dmen like Diaz couldn't adjust -- with no time to skate or pass his game was neutralized. So all those fancy first-passes dried up, along with gaining the neutral zone and controlling the play into the o-zone.

Beaulieu can give us back some of what we lost -- the ability to control the puck from our end out. Right now, everybody except Subban is a turnover risk in our zone, which makes our forwards play a more cautious game, knowing we'll probably get hemmed in. Beaulieu will undoubtedly make mistakes, but he brings what we need very badly.
As long as we gonna have so many smallish forwards, it's gonna be that style of play ( or lack of)...

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