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Would you do a 1-for-1 swap of Couturier for Weber

View Poll Results: Would you?
Yes 107 74.83%
No 36 25.17%
Voters: 143. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
03-24-2014, 05:22 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by BackWithaVengeance View Post
Actually, if the Preds make Weber in the offseason available, do you believe Poile thinks like !anyone but the Flyers!" since they send him the offersheet?
He'll choose whichever deal benefits his team the most, regardless of whether or not they've sent his players offer sheets in the past.

At least, I hope he would, since he's a professional and all.

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03-24-2014, 06:04 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by BackWithaVengeance View Post
Actually, if the Preds make Weber in the offseason available, do you believe Poile thinks like !anyone but the Flyers!" since they send him the offersheet?
I'd make him an offer he can't refuse, and give up anything not named Giroux, Couturier, or Mason...

So I hope he would listen...

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03-24-2014, 07:58 PM
  #103
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The fact that 28 people wouldn't trade Couturier for Weber kind of scares me...

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03-24-2014, 08:48 PM
  #104
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LOL @ anyone saying no

Weber is literally one of the best d-men in the league, arguably the best and Couturier hasn't even proved that he has enough of an offensive game to be a Selke winner yet.

This is such an obvious yes.

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03-24-2014, 08:50 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Yet no team without a high level two way center has won a Cup since 05, and every winner has had a recent Selke candidate.

So in this case no, I don't think that skillset is overrated as it seems to be a pre-req for serious contention. There's a reason Pittsburgh has been far less dangerous in the postseason without Staal.
And all of those teams have had Norris-type defensemen (Doughty, Lidstrom, Chara, etc.)

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03-24-2014, 08:52 PM
  #106
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And all of those teams have had Norris-type defensemen (Doughty, Lidstrom, Chara, etc.)
Yep.


So...it's a lateral move. Dig one hole, fill another. So I'm neutral on it.

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03-24-2014, 08:53 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Yep.


So...it's a lateral move. Dig one hole, fill another. So I'm neutral on it.
So you're saying that Couturier is as good as Toews, Bergeron, Kopitar, etc.?

That's so wrong.

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03-24-2014, 08:57 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Snotbubbles View Post


I don't really look at it as Couturier vs. Weber. I look at it as Couturier + ~7M in cap space vs. Weber. You could add another star level player for that.
And you realize that Couturier is probably going to make 4-5 million on his next contract while Weber's deal looks great when the cap shoots up.

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03-24-2014, 09:09 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by 2Claude2Giroux View Post
So you're saying that Couturier is as good as Toews, Bergeron, Kopitar, etc.?

That's so wrong.
He's well on his way to being that sort of player...more like a Staal, who also fits that mold, but probably even better defensively.

Edit: Make no mistake, this trade doesn't make us real contenders. We would go from a 3 line scoring threat to a 2 line scoring threat. That isn't enough to win a Cup, and I'm not about to assume Laughton is going to change that. So that's why I'm hesitant to pick either way. I don't think this is nearly as cut and dry as everyone makes it out to be. I'm not saying "absolutely don't do it," but I'm sure as hell not going to say "absolutely do it" either.

There's also the contract issues to consider, as Curufinwe has mentioned, and I think it's unwise to just bank on CBA changes.


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03-24-2014, 10:38 PM
  #110
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I suspect that non-Flyers fans are voting at this point to use to make our fanbase look bad later.

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03-24-2014, 11:06 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Broad Street Elite View Post
I suspect that non-Flyers fans are voting at this point to use to make our fanbase look bad later.
Oh please. God forbid people have a difference of opinion. It's not as simple as pick the better player. Age, contract and other factors go into it as well, which have all been stated.

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03-25-2014, 12:01 AM
  #112
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Oh please. God forbid people have a difference of opinion. It's not as simple as pick the better player. Age, contract and other factors go into it as well, which have all been stated.
Of course it's not pick the best player, but you can't simply use age/contract as a mechanism to completely ignore the gigantic gap in player value. A potential Norse Trophy defenseman who would instantly replace Kimmo both in the short and long term, quarterback the powerplay, has the snar you want on the backend, hits, provides toughness, plays half the game is precisely what we've been looking for since Pronger got hurt and what we'll be desperate for once Kimmo retires. I hope that Morin, Hagg or Gostisbehere can develop into a great player, but I don't want to have to back the prime years of Giroux, Voracek, Simmonds, etc on them being a true difference maker in the timeframe of their primes.

Given the success of the franchise in identifying and developing forward talent, I feel more confident that the Flyers can find a reasonable facsimile of Couturier than I do a Weber, especially with Laughton already in house and close to ready.

There's very few players I would trade Couturier straight up for. Weber is just one of the easiest ones.

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03-25-2014, 09:39 AM
  #113
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In a heartbeat but Nashville would not.

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03-25-2014, 09:54 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
He's well on his way to being that sort of player...more like a Staal, who also fits that mold, but probably even better defensively.

Edit: Make no mistake, this trade doesn't make us real contenders. We would go from a 3 line scoring threat to a 2 line scoring threat. That isn't enough to win a Cup, and I'm not about to assume Laughton is going to change that. So that's why I'm hesitant to pick either way. I don't think this is nearly as cut and dry as everyone makes it out to be. I'm not saying "absolutely don't do it," but I'm sure as hell not going to say "absolutely do it" either.

There's also the contract issues to consider, as Curufinwe has mentioned, and I think it's unwise to just bank on CBA changes.
Staal seems like a fair comparison, but do you really think Staal's value is in the same ballpark as Weber's? The only way I say no to this would be if I was like 90% sure that Couturier would turn into a Kopitar or Toews, and I don't think he's that player. I believe in being strong down the middle as much as anybody, but frankly I think it's a long shot that Coots is ever as good of a center as Weber is as a defenseman.

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03-25-2014, 11:04 AM
  #115
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Originally Posted by zarley zelepukin View Post
Staal seems like a fair comparison, but do you really think Staal's value is in the same ballpark as Weber's? The only way I say no to this would be if I was like 90% sure that Couturier would turn into a Kopitar or Toews, and I don't think he's that player. I believe in being strong down the middle as much as anybody, but frankly I think it's a long shot that Coots is ever as good of a center as Weber is as a defenseman.
Centers of Couturier's ilk aren't very common, although dmen like Weber are less common even than that. Still, I'm not gonna be quick to drop what we have to have something else. We can say "Oh, just replace Couturier" but it's easier said than done.

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03-25-2014, 12:05 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Centers of Couturier's ilk aren't very common, although dmen like Weber are less common even than that. Still, I'm not gonna be quick to drop what we have to have something else. We can say "Oh, just replace Couturier" but it's easier said than done.
exactly..

there has to be another way/guy

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03-25-2014, 12:06 PM
  #117
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exactly..

there has to be another way/guy
Bobby Ryan converted to D?

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03-25-2014, 04:46 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Centers of Couturier's ilk aren't very common, although dmen like Weber are less common even than that. Still, I'm not gonna be quick to drop what we have to have something else. We can say "Oh, just replace Couturier" but it's easier said than done.
This is exactly my thinking. Say we do trade Couts for Weber, straight up. Weber is 28 right now, so that gives us around 5 years to acquire somebody that can replace Couts while he's still in his prime. There's not exactly a plethora of teams looking to get rid of Selke caliber centers. We'd have to get really lucky, or overpay.

So, say we do get that guy! What would that cost? Would we be gutting the team to get that guy? Would we still be contenders with what have leftover?

I think trading Couturier for Weber makes us better, for sure. Weber is obviously the better player at this point in time. But does it make us contenders? Probably not. Could we become a serious contender if we make that trade? Possbily, but is it any easier than it is now without the trade? I'm not exactly sure, which is why I'm hesitant to vote yes. It might just be more prudent to develop our own d-men, and keep our core in place.

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03-25-2014, 05:53 PM
  #119
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This is exactly my thinking. Say we do trade Couts for Weber, straight up. Weber is 28 right now, so that gives us around 5 years to acquire somebody that can replace Couts while he's still in his prime. There's not exactly a plethora of teams looking to get rid of Selke caliber centers. We'd have to get really lucky, or overpay.

So, say we do get that guy! What would that cost? Would we be gutting the team to get that guy? Would we still be contenders with what have leftover?

I think trading Couturier for Weber makes us better, for sure. Weber is obviously the better player at this point in time. But does it make us contenders? Probably not. Could we become a serious contender if we make that trade? Possbily, but is it any easier than it is now without the trade? I'm not exactly sure, which is why I'm hesitant to vote yes. It might just be more prudent to develop our own d-men, and keep our core in place.
This would definitely make us contenders, I think you've forgotten what this team was like with pronger. We went to the SCF! And Pronger was way older.

Also, as much as love cooter shutting down Malkin/Crosby Weber would do just a good a job, if not better.

Definitely doesn't take away from what Couturier has done, but this is like asking "would you trade him for Crosby?"

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03-25-2014, 06:06 PM
  #120
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This would definitely make us contenders, I think you've forgotten what this team was like with pronger. We went to the SCF! And Pronger was way older.

Also, as much as love cooter shutting down Malkin/Crosby Weber would do just a good a job, if not better.

Definitely doesn't take away from what Couturier has done, but this is like asking "would you trade him for Crosby?"
But Pronger was on a team that had a shutdown center in Mike Richards and another good two way center in Carter. Weber would be on a team with no shutdown center, unless Laughton became that for us down the road but of course that is not a given.

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03-25-2014, 06:10 PM
  #121
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Yeah, that Pronger team had 3 legitimately good offensive lines and a buzzsaw of a 4th line. Trade Couturier and we have 2 scoring lines (ask the Pens and Caps how that works in the playoffs), a much reduced checking line, and the usual "whatever" 4th line...with three of those lines likely being downright detrimental if they don't get the perfect matchup. The team loses a lot of flexibility.

Weber isn't as good as Pronger, either, so he's not going to singlehandedly overcome those things. So, I still think it's generally a lateral move that fixes one problem while creating another.

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03-25-2014, 06:18 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
This would definitely make us contenders, I think you've forgotten what this team was like with pronger. We went to the SCF! And Pronger was way older.

Also, as much as love cooter shutting down Malkin/Crosby Weber would do just a good a job, if not better.

Definitely doesn't take away from what Couturier has done, but this is like asking "would you trade him for Crosby?"
Trading a player for a better player doesn't always make the team better, which is my point. Weber is a far superior player to Couturier, but it's a somewhat lateral move.

An extreme, fictional example, would be like if we were having goaltending issues, and decided to trade Giroux for Patrick Roy in his prime. Sure, we solve all of our goaltending issues, but now we need a new captain and #1 center. I realize it's a different situation, but, it's just trading one hole for another. Finding a #2, defensive center is a smaller hole than a franchise defensemen, but we'd still have a limited amount of time to fill it.

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03-25-2014, 07:13 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Yeah, that Pronger team had 3 legitimately good offensive lines and a buzzsaw of a 4th line. Trade Couturier and we have 2 scoring lines (ask the Pens and Caps how that works in the playoffs), a much reduced checking line, and the usual "whatever" 4th line...with three of those lines likely being downright detrimental if they don't get the perfect matchup. The team loses a lot of flexibility.

Weber isn't as good as Pronger, either, so he's not going to singlehandedly overcome those things. So, I still think it's generally a lateral move that fixes one problem while creating another.
Completely agree. It's just another form of the Coburn for Eberle deal really. In a vacuum, we can assess value all we want. Atmospheric conditions are what determine actual value, and we have a number of things to consider being making any rash moves.

I'm leaning toward the camp where Couturier for Weber, without knowing what Laughton really is, over-complicates things.

It's an interesting proposition, but I think we can potentially move other pieces for Weber should he be available. Laughton is one of those pieces.

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03-25-2014, 07:23 PM
  #124
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This would definitely make us contenders, I think you've forgotten what this team was like with pronger. We went to the SCF! And Pronger was way older.

Also, as much as love cooter shutting down Malkin/Crosby Weber would do just a good a job, if not better.

Definitely doesn't take away from what Couturier has done, but this is like asking "would you trade him for Crosby?"
I think a lot of people have forgotten that when we went to the Finals we also came within a shootout goal of missing the playoffs altogether. Apart from the fact that that was a completely different team, with a younger Timonen, Carle, Meszaros before the injuries, Carter, Richards...

Just not comparable situations imo.

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03-25-2014, 07:36 PM
  #125
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Player comparison aside even, it's more like digging a hole to fill a crater. Dealing from the organizations foremost position of strength for the best possible addition to its far weakest position. Having G Schenn Vinny and Laughton down the middle accomplishes much of the same thing, as Laughton will be groomed through the typical path of a shutdown center by us. He's a major shut down and potential 2-way prospect and that's his natural role.

Hartnell-G-Voracek
Vinny-Schenn-Simmonds
Raffl-Laughton-Read
Hall-Rinaldo-FA(3/4th liner)

(26)Weber/Coburn(22mins)
(21)Macdonald/Streit(20)
(17)Schenn/Gus(14) /Folin/Alt

PP1-
Simmonds
Giroux Hartnell
Weber Streit

Something like this I love the look of, a true top pairing, probably the best PP in the league, and although I didn't check the numbers it's staggeringly more balanced and looks like a contender.


Last edited by tymed: 03-25-2014 at 08:10 PM. Reason: added some estimates for defensive icetime
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