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Re-build the Flyers defense

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Old
03-25-2014, 01:26 PM
  #76
Psuhockey
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Originally Posted by Jtown View Post
you didn't read my earlier post. Get the 3rd, now you have apiece to get ekblad.

Also I think you are overestimating eberle. He is another 1 dimentional winger. Those guys don't win you championships.
Ekblad might be no better than Coburn, who was a top 10 pick himself in one of the deepest drafts ever. Ekblad no matter what will not be better than Coburn next year so its a big downgrade. Giroux, Voracek, Simmonds, and Read are all in their prime, with Hartnell and Lecavalier on the down swing. I am all for adding youth to the lineup but moving Coburn, the flyers only top 4 defenseman signed for next year, for a rookie would be wasting a peak year the flyers top forwards on a big gamble.

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03-25-2014, 01:29 PM
  #77
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So I'm a little confused about how Eberle improves the defense, especially if we're trading Coburn

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03-25-2014, 01:31 PM
  #78
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Coburn shouldn't be going anywhere. He's extremely underrated by this fanbase. He has an occasional brainfart and doesn't provide the offense we all thought he was going to, but let's be honest; you don't notice him much on the ice and for the most part does what he's supposed to do and makes good decisions with the puck. Those aren't guys we should be sacrificing.

I'd try and trade Grossmann at the draft for maybe a 2nd, let Timonen walk, resign Macdonald and maybe sign Boyle for 2-3 years.

I personally would then do Brayden Schenn, our 1st and the 2nd we get for Grossmann and try to get Ekblad.

Sign Matt Moulson

Sign Brian Elliott

Hartnell-Giroux-Voracek
Moulson-Lecavalier-Simmonds
Raffl-Couturier-Read
McGinn-Laughton-Rinaldo

Boyle-Coburn
Schenn-Macdonald
Ekblad-Streit

Mason
Elliott


Last edited by orange is better: 03-25-2014 at 01:39 PM.
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Old
03-25-2014, 01:32 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by CS View Post
I think Streit and Lecavalier have both been serviceable honestly. I'm not trying to throw anyone under the bus.

However, if you want MacDonald here, are you expecting to pair him with Streit?

Timonen - Coburn
Streit - MacDonald
Gustafsson - Schenn
I would try that lineup now and bench Grossmann.

Then hopefully sign Folin.

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03-25-2014, 01:33 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
So I'm a little confused about how Eberle improves the defense, especially if we're trading Coburn
I'm a little confused why you would ask that question, given that I have repeatedly said that I know the defense will be downgraded.

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Old
03-25-2014, 01:35 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by CS View Post
If you're not giving Gus a shot, you're not giving Ghost a shot at this point. That's just a simple fact.

Morin? Questionable. Just how good is he right now? Could he replace Grossmann in your lineup?
I honestly don't even think Gus will be here next year anyway so he won't be a hurdle block for anybody if he was even one in the first place.

Gostisbehere should get his shot at a roster spot this camp/preseason but ultimately I think he heads back to the AHL.

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03-25-2014, 01:36 PM
  #82
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I like the idea of getting Eberle for Coburn. But I have a particular liking for Ebs and the move would require no less than an additional move of Voracek or Simmer for a top pairing defencemen. It's a complicated process to call it Eberle for Voracek + nothing special and would also depend on the replacement for Coburn. We simply can't move Coburn without a plan or existing replacement for him, our defence is already less adequate than we need them to be. I think that Eberle's discernibly better than Jake and that the difference stems mostly from his ability to play a complimentary role at least a level above what Jake has ever shown. They're both un-noteworthy defensively except that Eberle has always played some PK. He would just show us something with G that Jake hasn't. But this seems like a pipe dream of circumstances

Streit is here to stay. He's already a better option that Timonen or Voracek on the 1st unit in my opinion, for the point. We definitely need him for a large hole in offense from defence in the near future. He was signed for a role that they're not yet fully using him in but it's only a matter of time and bodies.

With the addition and assumed extension of Macdonald, Grossmann finds himself in a position of redundancy where he and Schenn are concerned, unless were talking about trade value and trades. But he's likely gone because we're too slow with them both for starters, and there needs to be space opening up starting next season for the development of prospects though I won't hold my breath.

Speculation is frustrating when so much of it hinges on Timonen. But what is the real otherwise option that doesn't leave our defence looking like even more of a ****show than it already is?

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Old
03-25-2014, 01:38 PM
  #83
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No offense to anyone here but I think a lot of this discussion is unrealistic. I don't see the Flyers going after Ekblad, or Weber, or Eberle. The big question for me is, what are the realistic expectations for Morin and Hagg? Are they the Flyers top pair of the future? If they are, then there's no need to go after Ekblad, Weber, or probably Niskanen.

If the Flyers do end up signing Folin (I'm not counting on it seeing as how they lost out on DeKeyser last year) then hopefully they find a way to trade Grossman. For whatever. I don't think he sucks but you can't have both him and Schenn on the team. Folin is potentially a significant improvement over Grossman.

I'm curious as to what people seriously think will be the Flyers blue line to start the 2015-16 season (season after next). That will be the last year of Coburn's current contract, as well as Schenn's, and the next to last year of Streit's. Nobody else currently on the Flyers roster will be under contract then, unless MacDonald is re-signed (which I hope happens).


Last edited by JackStraw: 03-25-2014 at 01:48 PM.
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Old
03-25-2014, 01:45 PM
  #84
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I just want to point out I used Eberle for Coburn as a hypothetical. Trying to prove that Edmonton might be willing to go for Coburn but they would need to make a significantly better offer than they did at the draft last year. I also said it's not a foregone conclusion Coburn will be here just because of the rumors at the draft and Dreger report from earlier in the year. I just think Edmonton will be targeting Coburn again. Also I did state if Coburn is moved we would be bringing in someone capable of playing his time or even better in another package.

One thing is good though, we got some conversation pumping in dis *****. That's all I ask for on my off day.

Some others and I have talked about it before, I still see a big draft day trade going down.

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03-25-2014, 01:48 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I'm a little confused why you would ask that question, given that I have repeatedly said that I know the defense will be downgraded.
Sure, but we're trying to re-build the defense. That generally means improvement...I want to add a bathroom, maybe put on a new roof. Trading Coburn for Eberle would certainly re-build the D, yes. But that renovation is on par with filling the current bathroom with cement and replacing the roof with rotting meat. It is technically a re-build, but not really a logical one.

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03-25-2014, 01:50 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Prongo View Post
I just want to point out I used Eberle for Coburn as a hypothetical. Trying to prove that Edmonton might be willing to go for Coburn but they would need to make a significantly better offer than they did at the draft last year. I also said it's not a foregone conclusion Coburn will be here just because of the rumors at the draft and Dreger report from earlier in the year. I just think Edmonton will be targeting Coburn again. Also I did state if Coburn is moved we would be bringing in someone capable of playing his time or even better in another package.

One thing is good though, we got some conversation pumping in dis *****. That's all I ask for on my off day.

Some others and I have talked about it before, I still see a big draft day trade going down.

I can see a big shakeup at the draft too.

Here are my candidates:


1. Schenn Bros
2. Coburn
3. Laughton
4. Grossman
5. Vinny but only to Tampa

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Old
03-25-2014, 01:51 PM
  #87
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I don't think a full rebuild is a good thing at all. Reading this forum makes it seem like our defense is the worst thing in the world.

I think letting Timonen walk or signing him to a 2nd-3rd pairing money 1-yr deal and signing someone like Niskanen makes our defense great. Let Grossman go. Boom done.

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Old
03-25-2014, 01:52 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jtown View Post
I can see a big shakeup at the draft too.

Here are my candidates:


1. Schenn Bros
2. Coburn
3. Laughton
4. Grossman
5. Vinny but only to Tampa
I agree with 1 through 4 but I actually believe if Vinny was on the block there would be more interest in him than people think. Sutter even jokes before the game last night that if we have Vinny playing the LW then you know that team in "strong down the middle". Teams like St Louis and Montreal come to mind regarding Vinny. He hasn't gelled well here and maybe he wouldn't be opposed to a move. We would just have to find the right fit for him.

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03-25-2014, 02:03 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by tsquad View Post
I don't think a full rebuild is a good thing at all. Reading this forum makes it seem like our defense is the worst thing in the world.

I think letting Timonen walk or signing him to a 2nd-3rd pairing money 1-yr deal and signing someone like Niskanen makes our defense great. Let Grossman go. Boom done.
I don't think it is a full rebuild, I just think the organization understands that we need to make improvements to this blueline and Mac and Kimmo may be gone, which would defeinetly shift focus onto the defense.

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Originally Posted by Prongo View Post
I agree with 1 through 4 but I actually believe if Vinny was on the block there would be more interest in him than people think. Sutter even jokes before the game last night that if we have Vinny playing the LW then you know that team in "strong down the middle". Teams like St Louis and Montreal come to mind regarding Vinny. He hasn't gelled well here and maybe he wouldn't be opposed to a move. We would just have to find the right fit for him.


He has a NMC and I think we would also be doing Vinny a Favor. It just seems like the a natural fit.

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03-25-2014, 02:03 PM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Sure, but we're trying to re-build the defense. That generally means improvement...I want to add a bathroom, maybe put on a new roof. Trading Coburn for Eberle would certainly re-build the D, yes. But that renovation is on par with filling the current bathroom with cement and replacing the roof with rotting meat. It is technically a re-build, but not really a logical one.
Oh ok. I guess when I said that I realized it was a downgrade to the defense, you took that to mean that I was saying that I wanted the move to be done to improve the defense, not the offense like I said. That makes sense. Usually when I say something the complete opposite is what I mean.

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03-25-2014, 02:04 PM
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jtown View Post
I can see a big shakeup at the draft too.

Here are my candidates:


1. Schenn Bros
2. Coburn
3. Laughton
4. Grossman
5. Vinny but only to Tampa
Is he able to be traded back to Tampa? I know there were some restrictions with buy-outs getting traded but I can't remember what they were.

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Old
03-25-2014, 02:05 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Jtown View Post
I can see a big shakeup at the draft too.

Here are my candidates:


1. Schenn Bros
2. Coburn
3. Laughton
4. Grossman
5. Vinny but only to Tampa
I think the Schenns are out of here. They question is for what. I would think Winnipeg, Edmonton, Buffalo would have interest and to a lesser extent St Louis and Anaheim, which I think will both lose come playoff time do to a lack of depth at center ice. Phoenix could have interest too.

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03-25-2014, 02:05 PM
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Sure, but we're trying to re-build the defense. That generally means improvement...I want to add a bathroom, maybe put on a new roof. Trading Coburn for Eberle would certainly re-build the D, yes. But that renovation is on par with filling the current bathroom with cement and replacing the roof with rotting meat. It is technically a re-build, but not really a logical one.
I'm with you on this one.

Re-build our befense by trading away our best skating guy who can play top pair. Makes no sense to me.

Right now, we have a very even top 6. We have 5 guys who have played top pairing minutes either last year or this year.If Kimmo leaves, we have 4. If MacD leaves, we have 3. Trade Coburn, we have Streit and Schenn.

Sign MacD is important as we then didn't waste the assets spent on him AND we know he can play top pairing if an injury happened and we needed him to. And worst case, if Kimmo left we could still run:

MacD Coburn
Streit Grossmann
Gus Schenn

Not ideal, but doable if we struck out on the UFA's.

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03-25-2014, 02:10 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Is he able to be traded back to Tampa? I know there were some restrictions with buy-outs getting traded but I can't remember what they were.
I know one of the restrictions was that the player can not resign with the team buying him out, I also think a year must pass before the player can go back to the team he was bought out from.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Psuhockey View Post
I think the Schenns are out of here. They question is for what. I would think Winnipeg, Edmonton, Buffalo would have interest and to a lesser extent St Louis and Anaheim, which I think will both lose come playoff time do to a lack of depth at center ice. Phoenix could have interest too.
I think if both schenns were on the table they would have to look at a dman.

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03-25-2014, 02:14 PM
  #95
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I'm with you on this one.

Re-build our befense by trading away our best skating guy who can play top pair. Makes no sense to me.

Right now, we have a very even top 6. We have 5 guys who have played top pairing minutes either last year or this year.If Kimmo leaves, we have 4. If MacD leaves, we have 3. Trade Coburn, we have Streit and Schenn.

Sign MacD is important as we then didn't waste the assets spent on him AND we know he can play top pairing if an injury happened and we needed him to. And worst case, if Kimmo left we could still run:

MacD Coburn
Streit Grossmann
Gus Schenn

Not ideal, but doable if we struck out on the UFA's.
If the idea is to upgrade the defense, losing the best defensemen and running with the same 5 is not really upgrading.

The winning streak was impressive but the 1st two periods last night should of been a reminder that this defense still has a tough time moving the puck with heavy pressure. Now LA is one of a few teams league wide that can put on that type of pressure but so is Boston. The goal should be building a cup worthy defense not hoping some else eliminates a team you can't beat, like the Flyers will be hoping these playoffs that someone else beats Boston and LA.

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03-25-2014, 02:19 PM
  #96
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imo we are stacked with decent Dman but nothing special and we have to make space for the young guys.

-i don't want to overpay for AMac anything more than 4.5-4.75m then he can leave.
-if Ghost can prove to be a good replacement for Streit then trade Streit.(1-2years)
-Trade Grossmann.
-if Luke Schenn doesn't develop his game and stay a decent Dman then let him walk at the end of his contract.

then you have space for the young Dman while still having Coburn and maybe AMac and another solid veteran and you'll have something like this to work with.

Coburn-xxxx
AMac-Ghost
Schenn-xxx


Last edited by Flyerss: 03-25-2014 at 02:32 PM.
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Old
03-25-2014, 02:26 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Oh ok. I guess when I said that I realized it was a downgrade to the defense, you took that to mean that I was saying that I wanted the move to be done to improve the defense, not the offense like I said. That makes sense. Usually when I say something the complete opposite is what I mean.



I object to the very idea of downgrading the defense, an area of need, to add more to an area that isn't exactly a need...and he isn't even a left wing, which would at least address a need.

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03-25-2014, 02:30 PM
  #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post



I object to the very idea of downgrading the defense, an area of need, to add more to an area that isn't exactly a need...and he isn't even a left wing, which would at least address a need.
How is adding a #1 defenseman downgrading the defenseman? (See how it doesn't make sense when I respond to your comment with something that makes it sound like you are saying something different?)


Anyway, its fine, you don't have to agree with it. But don't try to make is seem like I am saying something that I am not.

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Old
03-25-2014, 02:32 PM
  #99
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Timonen and Grossmann are the two most likely to be going right now short of some big deals. That gives a you a couple spots to promote from within and start the rebuild. The problem is most of the prospects are sill a year or more away it seems so it may be difficult to have a lot of turnover right now, unless you are going to throw crazy money at Niskanen and hope he can replicate his one good season, or luck out with Folin signing here. Short of blockbuster trades there aren't a lot of options to dramatically overhaul the D in the short term.

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03-25-2014, 02:32 PM
  #100
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I'd be fine with trading Coburn. Sure it hurts us immediately, but that's the point of trading him. For all this board does complaining about quick fixes and contracts here we are considering trying to rebuild an average, overpaid defense through average free agent defensmen.

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