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should we or should we not???

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Old
03-07-2014, 07:21 PM
  #76
Sawdalite
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curufinwe View Post
He never should have been traded. They should have fired Clarke and the medical staff instead.


Held out... wouldn't sign/play here... forced trade and sat out full season. Both sides butted heads -- more heads if you count his parents -- Are you suggesting that the medical staff should have cleared him to play with his PCS... or that they tried to kill him with the lung condition?

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03-07-2014, 07:33 PM
  #77
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The shouldn't have let him play in the 1999-2000 season after he suffered multiple concussions. Of course I don't think they tried to kill him with the lung incident, but they were seriously incompetent.

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03-07-2014, 08:14 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Curufinwe View Post
The shouldn't have let him play in the 1999-2000 season after he suffered multiple concussions. Of course I don't think they tried to kill him with the lung incident, but they were seriously incompetent.
You are saying of course you don't think that... but his parents accused them of doing just that.

My thinking is that things were a lot less known back then and in retrospect it is easy to blame the medical people. People would say "they just had their bell rung", and expect them to go right out there. Players like Primeau, Lindros, Kapanin and Roenick would get them and rush back... Kappy and Roenick would be fine, but Lindros and Primeau would pay the price in the end... We enjoyed prizefighting back then where the goal was to concuss the opponent.

It's easy to lay blame now with better understanding... but back then, they seriously didn't understand and PCS procedures were quite different. Yes, now we know they shouldn't have done what they did... but is it incompetent when they are working with the medical limitations of the day? I don't think anyone was really to blame... but I do think that Lindros' parents made matter worse, but that is another story for another thread.

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03-08-2014, 07:15 AM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Appleyard View Post
That is kind of cherry picking and skewing heavily... the next 200 games he was at over 1.15 PPG in one of the lowest scoring eras in history. Joint 4th in NHL scoring during those three years in PPG after Jagr, Sakic and Forsberg and equal with Bure. (all HOFers or future) And being 3rd in the NHL in GPG in that time... as a centre, who score less goals on average than wingers.

First 9 seasons (558 games): 1.31 PPG.

(he was 6th all time in PPG after his first year on the Rags (well 7th if active included due to Jagr.)... where he was over PPG and top ten in the NHL, he was over PPG every year of his first 9... in some pretty low scoring years.)

Lindros career after 01-02: 1.31 PPG
Jagr career after 01-02: 1.32 PPG

Look at the comp through those 9... and where he ranked: http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...oints_per_game

Last 4 seasons (202 games): 0.66 PPG.

It was a tale of two parts... but the 1st half was closer to 600 games than 300-400 games. And in those 9 years he was scoring at a rate that put him among the greatest to ever play the game... Jagr was the only guy amongst his peers who could better him production wise over that timeframe.
The stats aren't skewed or cherry picked. The first six years of his career he was dominant, the last six he was not. His last season where he did anything even close to dominant was his seventh season so if you want to do seven and five split instead of 6/6 then fine, but just makes his second "half" look even worse.

And it should also be noted during his most dominant period he was playing 60 games per season on average. Dominant or not, parts of six seasons doesn't get you in the hall.

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Old
03-08-2014, 07:37 AM
  #80
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His 9th season he was still a top 10 point producer in the NHL (top 4 in GPG) and an elite 1st liner...

Duno how you exclude 1998-99, that was one of his best few years.

99-00 he was top 10 in GPG and PPG...

Don't just look at the numbers point wise... look at his placing amongst his peers and remember those years were some crazily low scoring ones.

As I said, over those three he scored at 1.15, which was joint 4th in the NHL in that time... if that is not elite I do not know what is.

If you just count 99-00 to 01-02 he was 7th in NHL PPG in that time, and 4th in GPG. Behind Jagr, Lemieux, Sakic, Forsberg, Bure in PPG.

So yeh, he had 9 seasons as an elite player. If you are counting his 1st year, he was better in 1998-02 than he was as a rookie!

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03-08-2014, 08:03 AM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Appleyard View Post
His 9th season he was still a top 10 point producer in the NHL (top 4 in GPG) and an elite 1st liner...

Duno how you exclude 1998-99, that was one of his best few years.

99-00 he was top 10 in GPG and PPG...

Don't just look at the numbers point wise... look at his placing amongst his peers and remember those years were some crazily low scoring ones.

As I said, over those three he scored at 1.15, which was joint 4th in the NHL in that time... if that is not elite I do not know what is.

If you just count 99-00 to 01-02 he was 7th in NHL PPG in that time, and 4th in GPG. Behind Jagr, Lemieux, Sakic, Forsberg, Bure in PPG.

So yeh, he had 9 seasons as an elite player. If you are counting his 1st year, he was better in 1998-02 than he was as a rookie!
That seems to be a bit more cherry picking and skewing than simply cutting the career in half. Either way, I stand by what I said. His inability to stay healthy is what is going to keep him out. He had "9 seasons as an elite player" according to you. Even if I agree with the number of elite seasons, it has to be characterized as he was elite for parts of nine seasons since only three of them did he even crack 70 games (never once cracking 80 during those nine seasons). Pace is great and I have no problem using that to project guys in the future or even as a measure to base a contract or a trade, but if you are talking about getting into the HOF, it isn't enough.

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Old
03-08-2014, 12:21 PM
  #82
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i see some people have harsh feelings towards the great 88 lol

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03-08-2014, 01:22 PM
  #83
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I've seen in mentioned a few times about 88 being "unofficially" retired and that no one will wear it again. I'm not sure if that's really the case. 88 is one of those goofy high numbers that aren't exactly popping up on every roster. 31 is another story though. That's a common number, and the fact that it hasn't been given out is a pretty clear indication that it is unofficially retired.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sawdalite View Post
You are right, he was 4th all time in GP... an accomplishment in it's own right... I apologize.

That said, his numbers when stacked up All Time in the NHL is IMO clearly ones that call for first ballot... You have a voter who is looking at those numbers and has to ask himself if this man belongs in the Hall, how can he say he isn't? Clear cut in my book... Now, if you have enough people who just won't vote on the first ballot as a rule, that is something else.

Look at the recent first rounders -- I don't have the data on hand -- and I'm certain you will not find better numbers and circumstances than his. Playing the 4th most games in itself is a reason... 12th most point ever is another. Honest voting dictates that he be elected. I don't believe that there are enough people who have personal no first ballot rules to eliminate him... based on players being selected on the first ballot in recent years. Seems it comes down to the slam dunks and the hanging in there candidates... Of those, how could Recchi's numbers seriously allow them to keep him waiting.



In these days of Free Agency and large contracts coupled with it being a Business on both sides, I don't see how a player who has played almost 40% of his long career with one club and the other 60+% with six or so others could not be considered a large piece of the former club's history. Tell me please who if not the Flyers should honor him? Should his number not be honored by any Organization? I would bet that the Pens and Bruins will make a big deal upon his induction... I think though that the Flyers are the ones to embrace him and honor him by retiring his number... If not the Flyers than who begs to be answered. We would be foolish IMO to not embrace him... Coffey, Sittler, etal... no way.


Hey... I'm still pissed that Jimmy Watson has not been honored by installation in the FHoF... what the Hell do I know.




EDIT: BTW... If Rex's playing with all those other teams is a reason, what can we say about Lindros who traveled around after a lesser amount of years here? How could we justify retiring his number officially?
I would absolutely put Rex in the HHoF, along with Lindros, and I don't think it should or will matter that both guys moved around a bit. But with retiring numbers I really want to see a guy spend the majority of his career with the team. Some teams even have that as a criteria (off the top of my head one of the Red Sox criteria is at least 10 years with the club). For example it's a little silly that the Whalers retired Pie McKenzie's number based on his 3 seasons as a New England Whaler (WHA) when he's most identified as a Bruin. Rex is a bit different in that he played a bunch of years with the Flyers, without looking I assume he has more games played as a Flyer than anywhere else (I'm guessing Pittsburgh is second).

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Old
03-08-2014, 02:14 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by CTU2fan View Post
I would absolutely put Rex in the HHoF, along with Lindros, and I don't think it should or will matter that both guys moved around a bit. But with retiring numbers I really want to see a guy spend the majority of his career with the team. Some teams even have that as a criteria (off the top of my head one of the Red Sox criteria is at least 10 years with the club). For example it's a little silly that the Whalers retired Pie McKenzie's number based on his 3 seasons as a New England Whaler (WHA) when he's most identified as a Bruin. Rex is a bit different in that he played a bunch of years with the Flyers, without looking I assume he has more games played as a Flyer than anywhere else (I'm guessing Pittsburgh is second).

Rex played potions of ten seasons in Philly over two stints... portions of seven with Pittsburgh and portions of four with the Habs and portions of three with the Bruins.... Carolina, Atlanta and Tampa Bay were all partial seasons.

Ten seasons with the Flyers including 123 (53-70), 107 (40-67) and 91 (28-63)points seasons, the former being a Flyers record point season.

If he just did that and fell short of the Hall overall I would not suggest retiring his number... but given an overall stellar NHL career and the expected HHoF induction, I certainly would place him in the category with Mark Howe who did not win a Cup in Philly but deserves recognition as a Flyers Great... As I alluded to before, I don't expect to see any more players like Clarke and Barber who spent their entire careers on one team... or even a Parent who spent all his good seasons with just one team. I am hoping Giroux is locked up his entire career but, this being a business on both ends, I'm not counting on it.

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Old
03-09-2014, 11:08 AM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sawdalite View Post
Rex played potions of ten seasons in Philly over two stints... portions of seven with Pittsburgh and portions of four with the Habs and portions of three with the Bruins.... Carolina, Atlanta and Tampa Bay were all partial seasons.

Ten seasons with the Flyers including 123 (53-70), 107 (40-67) and 91 (28-63)points seasons, the former being a Flyers record point season.

If he just did that and fell short of the Hall overall I would not suggest retiring his number... but given an overall stellar NHL career and the expected HHoF induction, I certainly would place him in the category with Mark Howe who did not win a Cup in Philly but deserves recognition as a Flyers Great... As I alluded to before, I don't expect to see any more players like Clarke and Barber who spent their entire careers on one team... or even a Parent who spent all his good seasons with just one team. I am hoping Giroux is locked up his entire career but, this being a business on both ends, I'm not counting on it.
Yeah, I was pretty sure Richards was going nowhere and look how that turned out.

I wonder how many guys are in the HHoF but don't have their numbers retired by anyone?

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Old
03-26-2014, 03:30 PM
  #86
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I felt like bumping this with the news this morning that Bobby Clarke will now be on the selection committee for HHoF, despite what happened between him & Lindros in the past he's been pretty vocal to the public about how Eric should be in the Hall since then so I wouldn't doubt if he tries to sway the committee's opinion on Lindros.

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03-26-2014, 03:40 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
I felt like bumping this with the news this morning that Bobby Clarke will now be on the selection committee for HHoF, despite what happened between him & Lindros in the past he's been pretty vocal to the public about how Eric should be in the Hall since then so I wouldn't doubt if he tries to sway the committee's opinion on Lindros.
Clarke was also a big Recchi guy... Just sayin'.

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03-26-2014, 03:46 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Sawdalite View Post
Clarke was also a big Recchi guy... Just sayin'.
It's more of when than if type of question in regards of him & the HHoF in my opinion. I think he's a type of guy who waits a couple of years before getting the call.

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03-26-2014, 09:14 PM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
It's more of when than if type of question in regards of him & the HHoF in my opinion. I think he's a type of guy who waits a couple of years before getting the call.
Strong class up top IIRC, with some decent players waiting in the wings... That said, Rex's numbers says HHoF at every turn... I personally don't see how any voter could deny him... however, there are I suppose those people who just don't like to vote in first timers; are there enough of them, though?

Buts, yes... more a question of 'when'... I agree with that, in the good sense.

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03-26-2014, 10:46 PM
  #90
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IMO, this shouldn't even be a discussion.

#88 should already be hanging from the rafters. The bad blood is a thing of the past, as shown by #88's inclusion in several alumni events in recent years.

He was as dominant a player as the NHL has ever seen and he provided Flyers fans with some of the greatest moments in team history (other than the seasons where we lifted the cup).

There is simply no argument to be made that Lindros doesn't belong in the Hall or that his jersey shouldn't be in the rafters. And quite frankly, even the "we only retire HHOFers jerseys" excuse isn't a good one to keep #88 from hanging in the WFC.

This needs to happen. Soon.

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03-26-2014, 11:31 PM
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
That seems to be a bit more cherry picking and skewing than simply cutting the career in half. Either way, I stand by what I said. His inability to stay healthy is what is going to keep him out. He had "9 seasons as an elite player" according to you. Even if I agree with the number of elite seasons, it has to be characterized as he was elite for parts of nine seasons since only three of them did he even crack 70 games (never once cracking 80 during those nine seasons). Pace is great and I have no problem using that to project guys in the future or even as a measure to base a contract or a trade, but if you are talking about getting into the HOF, it isn't enough.
Health issues didn't keep Neely or Bure out.

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03-27-2014, 08:30 AM
  #92
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9 seasons as an elite player is a lot

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