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Thomas Vanek isn't the dominant force we expected him to be. (Update: sick/hurt?)

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Old
03-28-2014, 12:49 PM
  #201
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Originally Posted by BobBobrovsky View Post
Yes, what is so ****ing complicated about this? Total no-brainer. This team needs Vanek for the next five years.
I think you're missing the point of what i'm trying to say...

I have no doubts that MB would like to retain Vanek, but I think he wants to retain him at a cost that HE thinks is fair and I don't think that he's just going to give him 8 years and 60M+ to keep him here

I agreee, this team needs Vanek for the next 5 years...all the more reason to try to get him signed for 5-6 years, not 8 years

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03-28-2014, 12:51 PM
  #202
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The truth about Vanek:

Not unlike Pacioretty, he's a sniper, more than a prototypical Power Forward.

That said, it doesn't mean Vanek is a peripheral player at all. Unlike a Ryder, for example, he doesn't float around, necessarily, just looking for the easy open space from which to shoot from.

Vanek will USE his size to park himself in dirty areas once he has an opening to step into them. He also uses his size well to protect the puck when he has it.

However, Vanek will not end the night with 6 or more checks. Nor will he be seen muscling past an opponent on an open rush to cut to the net. Not that he wouldn't do it. Vanek's skating simply isn't his strength and he is unable to outdistance a mobile D to be able to cut past him, using his body as leverage.

Vanek, while a deadly sniper, is also a much underrated playmaker with great vision on the ice. In that respect, he brings more to the table than a Pacioretty, offensively. To Pacioretty's credit, the LW is much faster on his skates than Vanek and sounder defensively (in large part, because of that speed).

Perhaps not ideally but, Desharnais, Pacioretty and Vanek do complement each other. It is far from what some might expect. It's not just a case of two floaters surrounding Desharnais, offering themselves as targets.

Pacioretty and Vanek both can shoot and it is their primary weapon. However, Pacioretty can apply pressure by driving the puck at high speed into the offensive zone, unlike Vanek.

Vanek, unlike Pacioretty, will find open space closer in to the opposing G and will be more willing to camp into an open spot in the dirty areas.

Vanek also supports the playmaking element, beyond relying just on Desharnais, on that line. This can lead to Pacioretty getting passes from both Desharnais and Vanek and can lead to Desharnais being somewhat more of a shooting threat as well.

It allows for positioning at different levels in the offensive zone; Vanek closer in to the crease for cross-crease passes, one-timers and dirty rebounds, Pacioretty nearer the F/O circle for one-timers with traffic in front of the net and Desharnais, all over the place for rebounds or as an alternative target for a one-timer.

Complementary players, really. Smart enough, also, and not greedy by nature. They will look to create offense in any way they can.

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Old
03-28-2014, 12:51 PM
  #203
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
Price was drafted in 2005, Pacioretty in 2007. Vanek in 2003. That has to be taken into consideration.
Because? There are only two factors here of importance: 1) we need a Vanek-type player for the next five years, and 2) there is no other alternative readily available. END. OF. STORY.

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03-28-2014, 12:52 PM
  #204
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
I think you're missing the point of what i'm trying to say...

I have no doubts that MB would like to retain Vanek, but I think he wants to retain him at a cost that HE thinks is fair and I don't think that he's just going to give him 8 years and 60M+ to keep him here

I agreee, this team needs Vanek for the next 5 years...all the more reason to try to get him signed for 5-6 years, not 8 years
He won't take a five year deal to stay here. Sometimes in life you have to overpay to get what you need.

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03-28-2014, 12:53 PM
  #205
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Originally Posted by BobBobrovsky View Post
He won't take a five year deal to stay here. Sometimes in life you have to overpay to get what you need.
Maybe he won't? Who knows...maybe he won't take an 8 year deal from the Habs either, maybe he's dead set on returning to Minnesota??? There are lots of variables at play here...

But I don't personally think the Habs are going to give him an 8 year deal

But of course, a long playoff run could change things

I'm personally not as concerned with the money, but I would be a bit hesitant to give the guy an 8 year deal, as big of a fan as I am of him.

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03-28-2014, 12:56 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Maybe he won't? Who knows...maybe he won't take an 8 year deal from the Habs either, maybe he's dead set on returning to Minnesota??? There are lots of variables at play here...

But I don't personally think the Habs are going to give him an 8 year deal

But of course, a long playoff run could change things

I'm personally not as concerned with the money, but I would be a bit hesitant to give the guy an 8 year deal, as big of a fan as I am of him.
I wouldn't offer him 8 years off the bat but I'd be prepared to go the max. route if need be as that's the one big edge that we have over Minny.

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03-28-2014, 12:57 PM
  #207
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Originally Posted by Forsead View Post
Kovalev or Kostitsyn probably.

Vanek is exactly what this team need, I mean a big forward that is an incredible threat in front of the net (OMG how long this has been), with Gallagher it's starting to be hell for an opposing goaltender. Vanek is also an amazing scorer and help the team so much on 5on5. He change how opposing defensemans plays against the Habs.

I think this team is a big, physical, gritty Top 9 complimentary forward away to be set on forwards.
It's really incredible how he is exactly the player we've needed for years lol. And his addition to the team has a ripple effect that makes every line better. That top line can now be counted on nearly every game.

Galch-Plek-Gally has looked like a solid second line. Gionta being pushed down the depth chart to the 3rd line is also very beneficial for the team. Everyone here can agree that Gionta is a 3rd liner, albeit a good one, at this stage of his career.

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03-28-2014, 01:03 PM
  #208
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Originally Posted by Smoky Thompson View Post
I don't remember the last forward we had who had the physical strength Vanek has.
His surprise shoulder-slamdown on Kronwall last night was

Vanek has powered this Habs mini-streak.

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03-28-2014, 01:09 PM
  #209
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Originally Posted by Smoky Thompson View Post
It's really incredible how he is exactly the player we've needed for years lol. And his addition to the team has a ripple effect that makes every line better. That top line can now be counted on nearly every game.

Galch-Plek-Gally has looked like a solid second line. Gionta being pushed down the depth chart to the 3rd line is also very beneficial for the team. Everyone here can agree that Gionta is a 3rd liner, albeit a good one, at this stage of his career.
Exactly !

Though personally I wouldn't sign Gionta back and I would try to trade Briere and get a big, physical, gritty complimentary player.


Imagine :

Pacioretty-Desharnais-Vanek
Galchenyuk-Plekanec-Gallagher
Laich/Moss/Korpikoski/Glencross-Eller-Bourque
Prust-Bournival-Moen
White, Weise, new goon


Last edited by Forsead: 03-28-2014 at 01:15 PM.
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Old
03-28-2014, 01:53 PM
  #210
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Vanek is a multidimensional player that offers something we lack badly.

Thats it. Unless McCarron is suddenly NHL 1st lune ready, we need someone of his stature to replace him.

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03-28-2014, 01:55 PM
  #211
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Originally Posted by Born in 1909 View Post
His surprise shoulder-slamdown on Kronwall last night was

Vanek has powered this Habs mini-streak.
Can someone gif that please? The whole sequence from the hit to the goal.

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03-28-2014, 02:26 PM
  #212
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I don't remember the lastforward we had who had the physical strength Vanek has.
Kostitsyn.

Vanek has a brain tho (so says the guy with the alias ''FlyingKostitsyn'' )

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03-28-2014, 02:45 PM
  #213
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Comparing a deadline pickup between Ryder and Vanek is interesting.

With Ryder, you know what you're getting. And from day 1, he brings it. One dimensional player who doesn't take time to "gel" with his linemates because, well, he's a very simple player.

With Vanek on the otherhand, we added a multidimensional who can do just about everything on the ice. He will take time to adapt, and I'm glad that Therrien has kept him to that one line.

I think it will pay off come playoffs in dividends.


edit: grammar


Last edited by LLoyd Christmas I: 03-28-2014 at 03:06 PM.
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Old
03-28-2014, 03:00 PM
  #214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scriptor View Post
The truth about Vanek:

Not unlike Pacioretty, he's a sniper, more than a prototypical Power Forward.

That said, it doesn't mean Vanek is a peripheral player at all. Unlike a Ryder, for example, he doesn't float around, necessarily, just looking for the easy open space from which to shoot from.

Vanek will USE his size to park himself in dirty areas once he has an opening to step into them. He also uses his size well to protect the puck when he has it.

However, Vanek will not end the night with 6 or more checks. Nor will he be seen muscling past an opponent on an open rush to cut to the net. Not that he wouldn't do it. Vanek's skating simply isn't his strength and he is unable to outdistance a mobile D to be able to cut past him, using his body as leverage.

Vanek, while a deadly sniper, is also a much underrated playmaker with great vision on the ice. In that respect, he brings more to the table than a Pacioretty, offensively. To Pacioretty's credit, the LW is much faster on his skates than Vanek and sounder defensively (in large part, because of that speed).

Perhaps not ideally but, Desharnais, Pacioretty and Vanek do complement each other. It is far from what some might expect. It's not just a case of two floaters surrounding Desharnais, offering themselves as targets.

Pacioretty and Vanek both can shoot and it is their primary weapon. However, Pacioretty can apply pressure by driving the puck at high speed into the offensive zone, unlike Vanek.

Vanek, unlike Pacioretty, will find open space closer in to the opposing G and will be more willing to camp into an open spot in the dirty areas.

Vanek also supports the playmaking element, beyond relying just on Desharnais, on that line. This can lead to Pacioretty getting passes from both Desharnais and Vanek and can lead to Desharnais being somewhat more of a shooting threat as well.

It allows for positioning at different levels in the offensive zone; Vanek closer in to the crease for cross-crease passes, one-timers and dirty rebounds, Pacioretty nearer the F/O circle for one-timers with traffic in front of the net and Desharnais, all over the place for rebounds or as an alternative target for a one-timer.

Complementary players, really. Smart enough, also, and not greedy by nature. They will look to create offense in any way they can.
nice analysis broski

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03-28-2014, 03:07 PM
  #215
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Vanek - Galchenyuk needs to happen in future. I think being on a line with someone who can think game at high level and similarly high vision would really help him grow.

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03-28-2014, 03:14 PM
  #216
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Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
Vanek - Galchenyuk needs to happen in future. I think being on a line with someone who can think game at high level and similarly high vision would really help him grow.
Vanek-Galchenyuk-Pacioretty...



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03-28-2014, 03:27 PM
  #217
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Originally Posted by Scriptor View Post
The truth about Vanek:

Not unlike Pacioretty, he's a sniper, more than a prototypical Power Forward.

That said, it doesn't mean Vanek is a peripheral player at all. Unlike a Ryder, for example, he doesn't float around, necessarily, just looking for the easy open space from which to shoot from.

Vanek will USE his size to park himself in dirty areas once he has an opening to step into them. He also uses his size well to protect the puck when he has it.

However, Vanek will not end the night with 6 or more checks. Nor will he be seen muscling past an opponent on an open rush to cut to the net. Not that he wouldn't do it. Vanek's skating simply isn't his strength and he is unable to outdistance a mobile D to be able to cut past him, using his body as leverage.

Vanek, while a deadly sniper, is also a much underrated playmaker with great vision on the ice. In that respect, he brings more to the table than a Pacioretty, offensively. To Pacioretty's credit, the LW is much faster on his skates than Vanek and sounder defensively (in large part, because of that speed).

Perhaps not ideally but, Desharnais, Pacioretty and Vanek do complement each other. It is far from what some might expect. It's not just a case of two floaters surrounding Desharnais, offering themselves as targets.

Pacioretty and Vanek both can shoot and it is their primary weapon. However, Pacioretty can apply pressure by driving the puck at high speed into the offensive zone, unlike Vanek.

Vanek, unlike Pacioretty, will find open space closer in to the opposing G and will be more willing to camp into an open spot in the dirty areas.

Vanek also supports the playmaking element, beyond relying just on Desharnais, on that line. This can lead to Pacioretty getting passes from both Desharnais and Vanek and can lead to Desharnais being somewhat more of a shooting threat as well.

It allows for positioning at different levels in the offensive zone; Vanek closer in to the crease for cross-crease passes, one-timers and dirty rebounds, Pacioretty nearer the F/O circle for one-timers with traffic in front of the net and Desharnais, all over the place for rebounds or as an alternative target for a one-timer.

Complementary players, really. Smart enough, also, and not greedy by nature. They will look to create offense in any way they can.
Well said, I'd sign that.

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03-28-2014, 03:36 PM
  #218
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Maybe it's just his personality , but Vanek seems happy to be part of a succesful team heading into the playoffs.

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03-28-2014, 03:55 PM
  #219
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Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
Kostitsyn.

Vanek has a brain tho (so says the guy with the alias ''FlyingKostitsyn'' )
I'd say Kovalev.

Kostitsyn hitting was part of his game, and yes he was very strong. But Vanek is like Kovalev in the sense that he will wreck you out of no where because it's not a regular part of their toolbox, and yet it is there.

Kovalev was insanely strong.

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03-28-2014, 04:07 PM
  #220
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If we have a good playoffs, and Vanek performs well, he stays. I think that anyone who has pride wants to remain in a context where he/she can excel. He seems pretty happy on the ice, and so, unless there is a massive collapse, I think that MTL is in his plans.

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03-28-2014, 04:08 PM
  #221
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The reason why I wouldn't be that afraid to throw a 8 year contract at Vanek is that, a little bit like Jagr, his game doesn't rely on speed, but on positioning and puck skills, 2 skills that tend to diminish a lot slower with time.
I think a 35 year old Vanek will still be effective, more effective than say a 35 year old Pacioretty
The other thing is that he's exactly the player we were waiting for

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03-28-2014, 04:16 PM
  #222
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If we have a good playoffs, and Vanek performs well, he stays. I think that anyone who has pride wants to remain in a context where he/she can excel. He seems pretty happy on the ice, and so, unless there is a massive collapse, I think that MTL is in his plans.
As long as he isn't like Hossa, lol.

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03-28-2014, 04:32 PM
  #223
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Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
Vanek - Galchenyuk needs to happen in future. I think being on a line with someone who can think game at high level and similarly high vision would really help him grow.
I think it's important we have an absolute elite winger to play with Gal. If not Vanek, then someone else. But we need someone. I absolutely do not want to see another center wasted away by giving him average/top6 wingers at best.

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03-28-2014, 04:34 PM
  #224
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I was playing around with capgeek's Armchair GM mode and if we get rid of Bourque and re-sign Gionta to a cheaper contract (Bergevin loves him, he's not going anywhere), we would actually be able to fit in Vanek at $8M, Subban at $8.5M, and Markov at $5.75M.

Forwards:

Vanek ($8M)
Plekanec ($5M)
Pacioretty ($4.5M)
Gionta ($4M)
Briere ($4M)
Desharnais ($3.5M)
Prust ($2.5M)
Moen ($1.85M)
Eller ($1.5M)
Galchenyuk ($925k)
Weise (800k)
White (735k)
Gallagher ($685k)
Bournival ($660k)

Defence:

Subban ($8.5M)
Markov ($5.75M)
Emelin ($4.1M)
Gorges ($3.9M)
Beaulieu ($925k)
Tinordi ($870k)

Goalies

Price ($6.5M)
Budaj ($1.4M)

This would leave us with a cap space of $250,000 (if the salary cap is $71,100,000). Our defence definitely needs work and we'd probably have to get rid of one (or two) of our bottom 6 forwards.
Gionta is not coming back. $5.75 million is too much for Markov.

Vanek should be paid more than Subban. He has 62 points and played for the Islanders. Subban has 52 points.

Vanek is a bigger impact player for the Habs than Subban. And its not even close. Bergevin needs to throw everything he has at Vanek to keep him here.

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Old
03-28-2014, 04:46 PM
  #225
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Gionta is not coming back. $5.75 million is too much for Markov.

Vanek should be paid more than Subban. He has 62 points and played for the Islanders. Subban has 52 points.

Vanek is a bigger impact player for the Habs than Subban. And its not even close. Bergevin needs to throw everything he has at Vanek to keep him here.
Your point being? Yeah he played for the Islanders. On a line with two other PPG players in Tavares and Okposo.

Subban led the Habs in scoring before Vanek was here...

Cool story bro.

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