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Thomas Vanek isn't the dominant force we expected him to be. (Update: sick/hurt?)

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Old
03-28-2014, 07:16 PM
  #251
Lafleurs Guy
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
You want me to be brutally honest with you?

This team has been riding on the back of PK Subban and how many times have we made it to the Stanley Cup Finals?

If you say zero, you are at least being honest with yourself.


Subban, while one of the better DMen in the League does not provide enough IMPACT to carry a team to win a Cup.

The Canadiens need an elite offensive player to do that.

Let me throw a scenario at you.......

We give Subban $9 million per year and let Vanek walk and we get a couple of $3 million dollar forwards to fill in the gaps.

Or, we give Subban $7 million and Vanek $8 million and we get the elite forward this team has so desperately needed to become a contender.

Will we win a Cup with Subban raking in $9 million with a couple of decent wingers?
That's the most ****ed up logic I've seen on these boards in a while. Do we say the same thing about Tavares too?

Anyways, carry on...

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03-28-2014, 07:19 PM
  #252
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I am pretty certain Bergevin can find a way to keep both PK and Vanek—if the Austrian wants to be here. It probably means saying goodbye to Markov and Gionta, but that's defensible.

From what I've seen the last 10 days, Vanek is one of the missing pieces. Galchenyuk might grow into that role 2 or 3 years down the line but will the Habs still have all the other pieces?

Vanek fell into the Habs' lap. I imagine he's starting to see the perks that come with winning in the Mecca of hockey. Would he rather play on a line with Patches for the next 4-5 years or disappear in Minneapolis? We'll see, I guess.

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03-28-2014, 07:31 PM
  #253
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Originally Posted by greyboy67 View Post
I am pretty certain Bergevin can find a way to keep both PK and Vanek—if the Austrian wants to be here. It probably means saying goodbye to Markov and Gionta, but that's defensible.

From what I've seen the last 10 days, Vanek is one of the missing pieces. Galchenyuk might grow into that role 2 or 3 years down the line but will the Habs still have all the other pieces?

Vanek fell into the Habs' lap. I imagine he's starting to see the perks that come with winning in the Mecca of hockey. Would he rather play on a line with Patches for the next 4-5 years or disappear in Minneapolis? We'll see, I guess.
If we want to keep Vanek we've got to get rid of Briere somehow or the math won't work.

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03-28-2014, 07:32 PM
  #254
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what if we dump Bourque somehow that would clear almost the same cap space as Briere and save us more money over 2 years plus we let Bouillon walk for another 1.5 million

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03-28-2014, 07:37 PM
  #255
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
Btw, those whining that if we had locked Subban long-term, we could afford Vanek.

You do realize that if Subban was signed for 6M$, we couldn't have had the cap space to acquire Vanek in the first place?
Other teams find ways to create room whenever they get a player. I'm sure we could have figured something out. That's also assuming we would have signed Briere.

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03-28-2014, 07:38 PM
  #256
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Originally Posted by HABS win CUPS View Post
what if we dump Bourque somehow that would clear almost the same cap space as Briere and save us more money over 2 years
There's a lot of deadwood on the roster that needs to be cleared. Problem is we'd need to find takers for them. Murray and Bouillion can go away without issue and can (and should) be replaced by Tinordi and Beaulieu so that solves that one. Bourque, Briere, maybe Gionta (though I'd rather keep him than the others) they can go. Personally I'd send DD packing though I know that's not what his fanclub would want to hear. So yeah, you're right not just Briere - but he should most definitely be sent away as well.

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03-28-2014, 07:53 PM
  #257
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Originally Posted by BlackStar View Post
Well..uhh...I did, and..I'm an idiot.

I am sorry. I completely misunderstood you. I was surprised that you would be saying what I thought you were saying, I should have spent more time thinking than writing.

Still, I think you are dead wrong on your belief that Vanek is more imortant than Subban.
Thank you for your honesty.

The ONLY reason that I say Vanek is more impactful, not more important, is that an elite winger is what the Habs have been missing for too long.

Subban AND Vanek would go a long way to getting the Habs back into being Stanley Cup contenders.

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03-28-2014, 07:53 PM
  #258
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
There's a lot of deadwood on the roster that needs to be cleared. Problem is we'd need to find takers for them. Murray and Bouillion can go away without issue and can (and should) be replaced by Tinordi and Beaulieu so that solves that one. Bourque, Briere, maybe Gionta (though I'd rather keep him than the others) they can go. Personally I'd send DD packing though I know that's not what his fanclub would want to hear. So yeah, you're right not just Briere - but he should most definitely be sent away as well.
im hoping Briere actually has a really good year for us next year - it seems to have taken a long time for Therrien to find his place but lately he's been really good and can center when needed

yea drop Bouillon bring up the young D at the start of the year and let them work all season not so late like this year.

i really hope Gionta is back also just for a bit less cash he's like Plekanec 2 for his shutdown abilities of the other teams scoring lines hes very under-rated here but at a reasonable contract he would be great. i dont think we would get a better playmaker for the top line than DD at his contract rate

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03-28-2014, 07:58 PM
  #259
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Thank you for your honesty.

The ONLY reason that I say Vanek is more impactful, not more important, is that an elite winger is what the Habs have been missing for too long.

Subban AND Vanek would go a long way to getting the Habs back into being Stanley Cup contenders.
well Patches is technically an elite winger just not as proven as Vanek i think he has around half as many nhl games?

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03-28-2014, 07:58 PM
  #260
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Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
I saw him suggest Murray is as good as Subban defensively so highly doubt it.
It has to be a language thing.

If you cannot understand the context of Murray doing his job and handling his responsibility as a #6/7 DMan as well as Subban is doing his job and handling his responsibility as a #1 DMan, then I really dont know what else to say to you.

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03-28-2014, 07:59 PM
  #261
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Originally Posted by HABS win CUPS View Post
well Patches is technically an elite winger just not as proven as Vanek i think he has around half as many nhl games?
Takes more than one winger on a line.......

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03-28-2014, 08:02 PM
  #262
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
That's the most ****ed up logic I've seen on these boards in a while. Do we say the same thing about Tavares too?

Anyways, carry on...
You as well.

It is obvious that the point sailed far over your head after you were blinded when you saw someone say that another player would have more impact than Subban for the Habs.

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03-28-2014, 08:08 PM
  #263
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In the end it comes down to whether or not Vanek wants to sign here. Assuming no one offers him $63m+ over 7 years, we could afford him, IF he wants to stay.

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03-28-2014, 08:08 PM
  #264
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Subban is our top impact player at this time.

Doesn't take away from Price, Vanek, Markov, Plekanec, etc.

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03-28-2014, 08:09 PM
  #265
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The first 4-5 games I thought he was just waaay too lazy and slow. He tried fancy backhand blind passes that failed time after time, but then he clicked with Pac and DD and all of sudden it gives the habs an unexpected depth. Last night vs Detroit was the awakening of the Vanek we can expect to see on a regular basis. He was faster, stronger, his passes were on tape and he knew where his linemates were. The habs are now a threat game after game and if it continues like this, Vanek might just turn out to be the missing piece for the habs to make it real far in the playoffs. It feels like the kovalev days, when night after night we could hope to score enough goals to win.

After last night's game, the TSN panel reaction to the trade is understandable.

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03-28-2014, 08:09 PM
  #266
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Originally Posted by Smoky Thompson View Post
In the end it comes down to whether or not Vanek wants to sign here. Assuming no one offers him $63m+ over 7 years, we could afford him, IF he wants to stay.
Will be hard to fit him in at 9 million.

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03-28-2014, 08:13 PM
  #267
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Takes more than one winger on a line.......
oh i agree with you that Vanek is great and him just being here helped solidify all our forward lines

i just think Subban is even more key the team could live without Vanek tho letting him go would really suck - but - the team would be dead without Subban our other D just isnt at that level except Markov

if we kept Vanek and lost Subban I dont think he could make up the difference in GA that would start racking up

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03-28-2014, 08:19 PM
  #268
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Originally Posted by HABS win CUPS View Post
oh i agree with you that Vanek is great and him just being here helped solidify all our forward lines

i just think Subban is even more key the team could live without Vanek tho letting him go would really suck - but - the team would be dead without Subban our other D just isnt at that level except Markov

if we kept Vanek and lost Subban I dont think he could make up the difference in GA that would start racking up
Goes back to my original point.

We have had Subban since 2010. We have not had an elite scoring winger like Vanek in that time frame.

We have not made it to the Stanley Cup finals.

That is the point I keep trying to make and why the impact of Vanek would be greater than the impact of PK Subban. Its just reality.....and not a slight aimed at PK.

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03-28-2014, 09:35 PM
  #269
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Goes back to my original point.

We have had Subban since 2010. We have not had an elite scoring winger like Vanek in that time frame.

We have not made it to the Stanley Cup finals.

That is the point I keep trying to make and why the impact of Vanek would be greater than the impact of PK Subban. Its just reality.....and not a slight aimed at PK.
But dude, that isn't a very logical point. The Sabres had a Vanek for years, but they were awful because (partly) they didn't have a Subban.

Some teams have Vaneks and need Subbans, some teams have Subbans and lack Vaneks. The point though is as good as Vanek is, there are more players like him than there are players like Subban. Vanek isn't as elite at his position as Subban is at his. Subban is at the very least a top 5 defensemen, Vanek is not a top 5 forward.

Take away Vanek from this team, and we are still a playoff team, albeit not as good of a playoff team as we are with Vanek. But take away Subban from this team, and we are out of the playoff picture.

Think about it, Vanek has only 10 more points than Subban; Subban is a defensemen. Subban is far more impactful than Vanek.

Price>=Subban>Vanek.

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03-28-2014, 09:40 PM
  #270
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Most teams are in need of both a Vanek and a Subban :-)


Last edited by DAChampion: 03-28-2014 at 10:48 PM.
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03-28-2014, 09:43 PM
  #271
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Originally Posted by BlackStar View Post
But dude, that isn't a very logical point. The Sabres had a Vanek for years, but they were awful because (partly) they didn't have a Subban.

Some teams have Vaneks and need Subbans, some teams have Subbans and lack Vaneks. The point though is as good as Vanek is, there are more players like him than there are players like Subban. Vanek isn't as elite at his position as Subban is at his. Subban is at the very least a top 5 defensemen, Vanek is not a top 5 forward.

Take away Vanek from this team, and we are still a playoff team, albeit not as good of a playoff team as we are with Vanek. But take away Subban from this team, and we are out of the playoff picture.

Think about it, Vanek has only 10 more points than Subban; Subban is a defensemen. Subban is far more impactful than Vanek.

Price>=Subban>Vanek.
DA Champion summed it up nicely.

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03-28-2014, 10:48 PM
  #272
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Most teams are in needcof both a Vanek and a Subban :-)

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03-29-2014, 12:59 AM
  #273
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Most teams are in need of both a Vanek and a Subban :-)
Agreed. Plus, I like your avatar.

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03-29-2014, 01:02 AM
  #274
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Okay that thread is pretty much irrelevant now. I mean just seeing the title is upsetting.

Can it be changed to something like: How much Vanek can impact the team?

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03-29-2014, 01:06 AM
  #275
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I like your avatar.
Likewise :-)

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