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Subban's next contract

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Old
03-29-2014, 02:16 PM
  #26
Brainiac
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Originally Posted by Corncob View Post
Or maybe there is a difference between unrestricted free agents and restricted free agents and that's why RFAs tend to get signed later, no matter who your GM is?
And maybe there's a difference between PK Subban and most RFAs?

There's plenty of example of star players being extended very early or before their last RFA year.

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03-29-2014, 02:18 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Beige Van View Post
That bridge was burned when they lowballed him on the bridge contract...
i agree, in hindsight, it was mb's biggest mistake. he coudl've had him for 8 years around 6 million, myabe less, and was our best dman since coming up from the ahl

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03-29-2014, 02:20 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Brainiac View Post
Unfortunately, it seems you also suffer from acute overvaluingcapspaceitis syndrome.

We should do a fundraiser for you guys. Maybe we can mix that with all the guys suffering of hyposecoundrounderophobia (fearing the absence of 2nd round pick).

Please donate so we can help these poor guys live a better life!
explain how we get vanek and subban dpme, while thinking about gallagher and galchenyuk, and a guy to replace markov??

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03-29-2014, 02:20 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Nedved View Post
he coudl've had him for 8 years around 6 million, myabe less
Link?

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Old
03-29-2014, 02:25 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Nedved View Post
i'm not sure. that's the gm's job. You would think they could trade for a young dman, prospect, and maybe 1 or 2 1st rounders.

let's say Phoenix:

Yandle, (d prospect) and a 1st.

I think it makes us better, and I think it puts the coyotes into a better spot to win a cup.

I love Yandle, one of my favorite non Habs players. But in no way does trading PK for Yandle and picks make us a a better team.

PK is already better then yandle. And the fact is he has stated many times that he wants to re sign and play year. Even Geoff Molson has come out and said that they will do everything to sign him to a long term deal.

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03-29-2014, 02:43 PM
  #31
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Explain to me how PK is better than Doughty, Weber, Chara.
Then we can talk about 8 years at 8-10M.

Anyway, every month there is a thread about PK's contract and his salary increases by 500K every time.

So let's keep this up and we will be paying him 12M.
Who needs Vanek and Markov when you have PK?

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Old
03-29-2014, 02:44 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Nedved View Post
explain how we get vanek and subban dpme, while thinking about gallagher and galchenyuk, and a guy to replace markov??
Cap is going up, Gionta is off the books this year, Briere next year. Eller certainly won't have a big raise. etc. etc.

Lineups were posted with Vanek and Subban at 7-8M and Markov at 5-6M. Plenty of cap space for all of that. The Gallys will be RFA and will probably get bridge deals as well.

Cap space has absolutely no value by itself. It's all about what you can do with it. And it happens that Bergevin can use it to sign good players this year.

Might I add 'hypocapspaceophobia' to the diagnostic?

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03-29-2014, 02:47 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Corncob View Post
Link?
geez louis.

it was widely rumoured what subban and his agent wanted, and he wanted to be here long term but mb wanted pk to prove himself

the rumours were around 6 mill for a long term deal

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Old
03-29-2014, 02:48 PM
  #34
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He's going to get paid, people will continue to hate on him as they would if he was being paid 2.875M like the last 2 seasons. It's funny really, how do people care about overpayment for a team that struggles to have impact players over the past decades and have a ton of overpaid mediocre players.

Give Subban 8-9M, all that happens is we no longer have scrubs like Briere, Bork, etc making 3-4M and have to use younger players on ELCs, actually try to look for bargains (ie Pro scouting), to fill team depth. Essentially, find a way to save cap on the dime a dozen scrubs.

Gionta is making 5M, Briere 4M, think about it. Only reason Habs can survive with these awful contracts is because their stars aren't really making star money yet. Pacioretty is a ridiculous bargain. Subban has been a ridiculous bargain. Like Price, he will get paid...and should. Vanek as well but it's unlikely he wants to stay. If 8M can get him signed, it's something you have to consider as well for same reasons.

The team has no real stars/top end talent outside these players that will ever look for top money outside maybe Galchenyuk. This isn't the Hawks or Penguins where there are a ton of stars who will be needed to be fit under the cap. Majority of the team is replaceable fodder. Overpaying the stars will not affect the team longterm in the slightest IMO, only way is if the Habs are in some amazing position with a few young studs looking for big raises...when that unlikely time comes, then you deal with it. For now, realistically, overpaying Vanek and Subban has little long term affect and doesn't limit the Habs from doing anything other than overpay for mediocrity.


Last edited by Watsatheo: 03-29-2014 at 03:01 PM.
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Old
03-29-2014, 02:51 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Brainiac View Post
Cap is going up, Gionta is off the books this year, Briere next year. Eller certainly won't have a big raise. etc. etc.

Lineups were posted with Vanek and Subban at 7-8M and Markov at 5-6M. Plenty of cap space for all of that. The Gallys will be RFA and will probably get bridge deals as well.

Cap space has absolutely no value by itself. It's all about what you can do with it. And it happens that Bergevin can use it to sign good players this year.

Might I add 'hypocapspaceophobia' to the diagnostic?
and the only way to put it in remission is an impressive pk playoff run. conn smythe, while not likely, will lead to a total cure.

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03-29-2014, 02:52 PM
  #36
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and the only way to put it in remission is an impressive pk playoff run. conn smythe, while not likely, will lead to a total cure.
That's more like it!

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03-29-2014, 03:04 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by 24get View Post
Explain to me how PK is better than Doughty, Weber, Chara.
Then we can talk about 8 years at 8-10M.

Anyway, every month there is a thread about PK's contract and his salary increases by 500K every time.

So let's keep this up and we will be paying him 12M.
Who needs Vanek and Markov when you have PK?
Apples and oranges. Those players were signed in the previous CBA. Not to mention the cap increasing substantially.

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03-29-2014, 03:05 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
He's going to get paid, people will continue to hate on him as they would if he was being paid 2.875M like the last 2 seasons. It's funny really, how do people care about overpayment for a team that struggles to have impact players over the past decades and have a ton of overpaid mediocre players.

Give Subban 8-9M, all that happens is we no longer have scrubs like Briere, Bork, etc making 3-4M and have to use younger players on ELCs, actually try to look for bargains (ie Pro scouting), to fill team depth. Essentially, find a way to save cap on the dime a dozen scrubs.

Gionta is making 5M, Briere 4M, think about it. Only reason Habs can survive with these awful contracts is because their stars aren't really making star money yet. Pacioretty is a ridiculous bargain. Subban has been a ridiculous bargain. Like Price, he will get paid...and should. Vanek as well but it's unlikely he wants to stay. If 8M can get him signed, it's something you have to consider as well for same reasons.

The team has no real stars/top end talent outside these players that will ever look for top money outside maybe Galchenyuk. This isn't the Hawks or Penguins where there are a ton of stars who will be needed to be fit under the cap. Majority of the team is replaceable fodder. Overpaying the stars will not affect the team longterm in the slightest IMO, only way is if the Habs are in some amazing position with a few young studs looking for big raises...when that unlikely time comes, then you deal with it. For now, realistically, overpaying Vanek and Subban has little long term affect and doesn't limit the Habs from doing anything other than overpay for mediocrity.
Solid post!

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Old
03-29-2014, 03:06 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
We can always add 1 more year than any mother team can and depending on the team, an offer sheet might not be all that bad. What is it, 5 1st from a bottom dweller could be worth more than PK has to offer. i.e buffalo, islanders, oil, Calgary are all going to be bottom 5 teams for awhile.
It is at best 4 1st if the offer sheet is 8.5M.

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Originally Posted by Beige Van View Post
Assuming it was a bottom dwelling team tendering an offer sheet (could just as easily be a top team), it is likely that the addition of PK would make said team a heck of a lot better ie: not a bottom dweller anymore. But sure, give away our best dman since Chelios for such mid first gems such as Fischer, Leblanc, Chipchura, ect...
Would be surprise to see a Bottom dweller give an offer sheet to PK.

Removing our top-3 pick (Galchenyuk) we would add McCarron, Beaulieu, Tinordi and Leblanc(our last four first round picks).

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03-29-2014, 03:09 PM
  #40
Beige Van
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Originally Posted by 24get View Post
It is at best 4 1st if the offer sheet is 8.5M.


Would be surprise to see a Bottom dweller give an offer sheet to PK.

Removing our top-3 pick (Galchenyuk) we would add McCarron, Beaulieu, Tinordi and Leblanc(our last four first round picks).
And I'd still much rather have Subban than those last 4 players..

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03-29-2014, 03:10 PM
  #41
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Depending on the team..

I mean, if it's the freakkin' Islanders, their 1st round pick might be worth a lot

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Old
03-29-2014, 03:11 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brainiac View Post
Cap is going up, Gionta is off the books this year, Briere next year. Eller certainly won't have a big raise. etc. etc.

Lineups were posted with Vanek and Subban at 7-8M and Markov at 5-6M. Plenty of cap space for all of that. The Gallys will be RFA and will probably get bridge deals as well.

Cap space has absolutely no value by itself. It's all about what you can do with it. And it happens that Bergevin can use it to sign good players this year.

Might I add 'hypocapspaceophobia' to the diagnostic?
Just an example :

FORWARDS
Alex Galchenyuk ($0.925m) / Tomas Plekanec ($5.000m) / Brendan Gallagher ($0.685m)
Max Pacioretty ($4.500m) / David Desharnais ($3.500m) / Thomas Vanek ($7.143m)
Rene Bourque ($3.333m) / Michael Bournival ($0.660m) / Daniel Briere ($4.000m)
Travis Moen ($1.850m) / Brandon Prust ($2.500m) / Dale Weise ($0.788m)
Ryan White ($0.735m) / Lars Eller ($1.500m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Alexei Emelin ($4.100m) / Josh Gorges ($3.900m)
Jarred Tinordi ($0.870m) / P.K. Subban ($8.500m)
Andrei Markov ($6.000m) / Mike Weaver ($1.100m)
Nathan Beaulieu ($0.925m) /
GOALTENDERS
Carey Price ($6.500m)
Peter Budaj ($1.400m)
BUYOUTS
Tomas Kaberle ($0.000m)
Scott Gomez ($0.000m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(estimations for 2014-15)
SALARY CAP: $71,100,000; CAP PAYROLL: $70,413,690; BONUSES: $3,257,500
CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $686,310

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Old
03-29-2014, 03:17 PM
  #43
Beige Van
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
Depending on the team..

I mean, if it's the freakkin' Islanders, their 1st round pick might be worth a lot
True, but Subban is a superstar player. Players like this are the 1 percenters - you will never acquire them through a trade or FA. As MB has stressed, teams just aren't willing to trade you these players. That is why you pay your superstars; they are so difficult to get!

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03-29-2014, 03:19 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Beige Van View Post
True, but Subban is a superstar player. Players like this are the 1 percenters - you will never acquire them through a trade or FA. As MB has stressed, teams just aren't willing to trade you these players. That is why you pay your superstars; they are so difficult to get!
Boston was willing to take the chance to trade Kessel because they tought he wasn't a right fit, even if he was producing.

Look.. I don't WANT Subban to be traded. But let's not wait until the situation comes to a breaking point before pulling the trigger, like we've waited with Ribiero. We should have traded that guy waaay before he started slumping, to have maximized return.

If management believes in Subban's long-term viability on our team, keep him. Otherwise, trade him.

edit: plus, it takes lots of courage on the part of management to trade a productive player that they don't see fit in the organization. Courage and vision.

The Kristo trade was either premature or too late.

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Old
03-29-2014, 03:45 PM
  #45
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I doubt he takes the hometown discount after the last negotiations. He needs to decide if he want to win though. Teams that tie too much money up in 1 or 2 contracts have a hard time paying the supporting cast what their worth. We can afford to pay him and Vanek the big money. We can even replace Gionta and Markov (I hope he signs here) next year. It's the following years that are tough. Gallagher and Galchenyuk will be up for big raises. We may not like DD but, he's actually pretty good value for the the money. Agree or disagree whether he should be a top line center, but he's cheaper than most for his production. Patches is on a great contract. It's when those contracts end we'll be hurt by a big Subban contract.

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03-29-2014, 04:08 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
If we buyout Bourque, trade Eller and don't resign Gio... can't we fit both?
That would be my wish.

Subban is staying in Montreal regardless. He will be signed. I hope that Bergevin does not decide that spending a lot on Subban will not allow him to spend more on Vanek.

Vanek will cost more than Subban.

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Old
03-29-2014, 04:16 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
Just an example :

FORWARDS
Alex Galchenyuk ($0.925m) / Tomas Plekanec ($5.000m) / Brendan Gallagher ($0.685m)
Max Pacioretty ($4.500m) / David Desharnais ($3.500m) / Thomas Vanek ($7.143m)
Rene Bourque ($3.333m) / Michael Bournival ($0.660m) / Daniel Briere ($4.000m)
Travis Moen ($1.850m) / Brandon Prust ($2.500m) / Dale Weise ($0.788m)
Ryan White ($0.735m) / Lars Eller ($1.500m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Alexei Emelin ($4.100m) / Josh Gorges ($3.900m)
Jarred Tinordi ($0.870m) / P.K. Subban ($8.500m)
Andrei Markov ($6.000m) / Mike Weaver ($1.100m)
Nathan Beaulieu ($0.925m) /
GOALTENDERS
Carey Price ($6.500m)
Peter Budaj ($1.400m)
BUYOUTS
Tomas Kaberle ($0.000m)
Scott Gomez ($0.000m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(estimations for 2014-15)
SALARY CAP: $71,100,000; CAP PAYROLL: $70,413,690; BONUSES: $3,257,500
CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $686,310
PK $8.5, Markov $6 and Vanek $7.14?

With numbers like that, we will have overpaid Subban and grossly overpaid Markov and Vanek is playing elsewhere.

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Old
03-29-2014, 04:20 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
PK $8.5, Markov $6 and Vanek $7.14?

With numbers like that, we will have overpaid Subban and grossly overpaid Markov and Vanek is playing elsewhere.
That's not the point. The point is that it fits under the cap.

Geez. Give 8 to Subban, 5.75 to Markov and another 8 to Vanek. Same result.

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03-29-2014, 04:29 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Brainiac View Post
That's not the point. The point is that it fits under the cap.

Geez. Give 8 to Subban, 5.75 to Markov and another 8 to Vanek. Same result.
The point I was making is that if you offer Vanek $7.14 million, he will die from laughter. Vanek gets the $8.5 prize if the Habs are serious about signing an elite winger that we have lacked.

How badly does Markov and Subban want to win a Cup?

Ray Allen took less money last season so he could play with the Miami Heat and win a Championship. In 2010, Lebron James, Dwayne Wade, and Chris Bosh all accepted less salary so that they could fill the team with talent.

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03-29-2014, 04:42 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
The point I was making is that if you offer Vanek $7.14 million, he will die from laughter. Vanek gets the $8.5 prize if the Habs are serious about signing an elite winger that we have lacked.

How badly does Markov and Subban want to win a Cup?

Ray Allen took less money last season so he could play with the Miami Heat and win a Championship. In 2010, Lebron James, Dwayne Wade, and Chris Bosh all accepted less salary so that they could fill the team with talent.
You have a strange vision of what consist negociations...

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