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David Desharnais Discussions - Part III - Montreal's Masterton nominee

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Old
03-29-2014, 06:25 PM
  #26
Winter Eclipse
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
Dupuis benefits a lot from Crosby, let's not kid ourselves.

It's just that Crosby definetly seems to be more dominant when he plays with a winger that offers the same things as Dupuis. Basically, it allows the Pens to put a better winger on Malkin's line. It's just smart distribution of your offense; you find the matches that fit.
But that's the whole point, isn't it? Can you really say that it's DD getting the "best" out of all those players rather than him benefiting a lot from always playing with good players?

I mean can you honestly say that Montreal and MT have made any effort whatsoever to "distribute our offense" or find "matches that fit"? Pacioretty is never off DD's line. Gallagher was never taken off that line despite struggling. Vanek has spent roughly 21% of his time at ES with DD since joining the Habs; with Plekanec it's 3.73%. On the PP those numbers jump up to 54% for DD and drop to 3.4% for Plekanec.

The issue is that we never even try to find combinations that work outside of the ones for DD; seriously, the Plekanec-Gallagher-Galchenyuk line looks pretty good, Briere's been noticeable as the 3rd C, and even Gionta is looking better on the 3rd line, no? But all of this only came about as an afterthought to once again giving DD the best players available...and for what? 53 points (projected)? I don't honestly think that NOT having Plekanec play with good wingers, NOT having Galchenyuk in the Top 6, NOT playing Briere at Center, and a host of other issues are really a good trade off for that return...

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03-29-2014, 06:38 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
Dupuis benefits a lot from Crosby, let's not kid ourselves.

It's just that Crosby definetly seems to be more dominant when he plays with a winger that offers the same things as Dupuis. Basically, it allows the Pens to put a better winger on Malkin's line. It's just smart distribution of your offense; you find the matches that fit.
And there it is. distribution of offense. That would be nice. We have loaded up on 1 line. When that line is shut down, what will happen? We're probably losing. Distribute the offense. Balanced teams win more games than one line teams.

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03-29-2014, 06:50 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Winter Eclipse View Post
"The last 8 games"

Yeah, too bad these adjustments came after the team had already played 67 friggin games!!!!.
Did we have Vanek before that ?

Ridiculous criticism.

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03-29-2014, 07:05 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
Did we have Vanek before that ?

Ridiculous criticism.
A criticism that you unsurprisingly failed to understand. Vanek forced MT to make the changes he did, changes that benefitted Plekanec, Gallagher, Galchenyuk, Gionta, and Briere.

The very point of the criticism was that we didn't have Vanek before, and that the beneficial changes we currently see could've been executed much, much earlier if MT wasn't obsessed with maximizing one single player, but instead were done late in the season as an afterthought due to Vanek's arrival.

Seriously, do try and keep up.

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03-29-2014, 07:06 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by JLP View Post
No other team has built their roster like the Habs have. No team drafted DD and according to LeBrun no other team wanted him last summer or fall. So there is no comparison in the NHL. We're on our own.
I wasn't a big fan of the signing of Briere but I think he was plan B after Lecavalier. Anyway.. we agree there are no comparisons. We have an unique line up of smurfs. So you can't just say no other teams do what we do as if that's proof that what MT does is stupid. Unique type of roster = gotta adapt.

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I don't think we looked real good against Boston but we won. Of course there will always be games like that. Again I agree that Habs mgm't is not thinking like the other 29 NHL teams. As noted we have four or five players 5'9" or shorter, more than the entire Western Conference. Adding Briere seems to confirm the Habs are thinking way outside the box on size. And Weaver at 5'9" 180lbs was the second-smallest player to move at the deadline.
We didn't look amazing against Boston but they didn't get crazy chances. They had puck possession all game but it didn't translate into scoring chances that much. And if the refs hadn't decided to go crazy in the 3rd period we would have shut them down. One of the most pathetic attempt at evening up the amounts of PPs I've ever seen, especially considering the cheapshots the bruins did all game. And that was us down 2 forwards early on.

All in all ? We looked just fine if you consider all factors.

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The last 8 games is a small sample though, on the season the Habs are 29th in even-strength scoring. In the playoffs even-strength scoring is more important as you know there are fewer man advantages and no four-on-four OT or shootouts.
Ok, but I don't care about the previous games. We didn't have Vanek. Vanek changes everything. He was exactly what was missing. We don't have amazing centers. Plekanec is a good little player but not an elite center. Same with DD. They both have their shortcomings. Our centers aren't our strength. We needed to have better wingers to make up for it. Now we do. It changes everything.

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A strong playoff run by the smallest NHL team in decades, led by the league's tiniest #1C, that would be a huge blow to conventional hockey wisdom. But yeah here we go Red, I sincerely hope it happens!

Go Habs Go !!!
Whether we win or lose doesn't mean that much in relation with DD.

I remember Datsyuk having a really tough time in his first few playoffs. Some players need more time to learn how to rise up to the challenge in the playoffs.

But if we're healthy, I don't see any reason why our big line can't produce in the playoffs. I'm confident we'll see some sparks.

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03-29-2014, 07:08 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
Whether we win or lose doesn't mean that much in relation with DD.

I remember Datsyuk having a really tough time in his first few playoffs. Some players need more time to learn how to rise up to the challenge in the playoffs.

But if we're healthy, I don't see any reason why our big line can't produce in the playoffs. I'm confident we'll see some sparks.
Pre-emptive excuses. That bodes well.

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03-29-2014, 07:09 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Winter Eclipse View Post
A criticism that you unsurprisingly failed to understand. Vanek forced MT to make the changes he did, changes that benefitted Plekanec, Gallagher, Galchenyuk, Gionta, and Briere.

The very point of the criticism was that we didn't have Vanek before, and that the beneficial changes we currently see could've been executed much, much earlier if MT wasn't obsessed with maximizing one single player, but instead were done late in the season as an afterthought due to Vanek's arrival.

Seriously, do try and keep up.
You're not making any sense whatsoever. Vanek didn't force MT to make changes.. he gave him options to make changes.

The way you're trying to spin this is pathetic to tell you the truth, desperately grasping at straws.

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03-29-2014, 07:20 PM
  #33
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Vanek was a blessing for the Habs. MT will give DD the team's top wingers, but there is a limit of two top wingers that he can assign to DD at any one time. One top winger trickled down and suddenly we saw winger upgrades all through the lineup.

This was not great coaching by MT; rather an increased supply of top winger breached his power to retard our offense.

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03-29-2014, 07:34 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by JLP View Post
Vanek was a blessing for the Habs. MT will give DD the team's top wingers, but there is a limit of two top wingers that he can assign to DD at any one time. One top winger trickled down and suddenly we saw winger upgrades all through the lineup.

This was not great coaching by MT; rather an increased supply of top winger breached his power to retard our offense.
You're right, MT should have created top wingers in his lab to distribute throughout the lineup.

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03-29-2014, 07:36 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
You're not making any sense whatsoever. Vanek didn't force MT to make changes.. he gave him options to make changes.

The way you're trying to spin this is pathetic to tell you the truth, desperately grasping at straws.
think his comments on playing a shutdown role were a pretty clear message...

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03-29-2014, 07:40 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
think his comments on playing a shutdown role were a pretty clear message...
MT was doing exactly what you guys wanted by giving Vanek to Plekanec.

He had to try it, even if only to show Plekanec that it wasn't what was best for the team. I'm sure Plekanec knows this and accepts his role.

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03-29-2014, 07:48 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
You're right, MT should have created top wingers in his lab to distribute throughout the lineup.
The XDD#1CX Project already produced Galchenyuk.

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03-29-2014, 07:58 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
MT was doing exactly what you guys wanted by giving Vanek to Plekanec.

He had to try it, even if only to show Plekanec that it wasn't what was best for the team. I'm sure Plekanec knows this and accepts his role.

thing is, Plekanec was used as a shutdown C... but somehow, now that Vanek has been taken off his line, he had no problem putting Gionta on the 3rd line and give Plekanec two offense first wingers...

somehow in MT mind, Vanek couldnt play a shutdown role so he put him on DD RW, and THEN he rearrage #14 line to give it some offense... (funny thing, pretty much everyone here agreed months ago that Gionta was dragging down Plekanec offensively)

of course he couldnt try Plek, Gallagher, Vanek or Galchenyuk, Vanek, Plek before (or Briere, Plek, Vanek, whatever)... he had to give his best forward to DD first!

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03-29-2014, 08:06 PM
  #39
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Well Patches and Vanek both scored in the first tonight obviously benefiting from DD \(^▽^)/

Go Habs Go !!!

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03-29-2014, 08:45 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
You're not making any sense whatsoever. Vanek didn't force MT to make changes.. he gave him options to make changes.

The way you're trying to spin this is pathetic to tell you the truth, desperately grasping at straws.


I see other posters have attempted to explain this extremely simple concept to you as well; the only pathetic thing here is your repeated failures to grasp elementary connections.

Please explain how you think that moving Briere to Center, bumping down Gionta from the 2nd line and replacing him with Galchenyuk, and moving Gallagher to the 2nd line couldn't have been done without Vanek

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03-29-2014, 08:46 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
thing is, Plekanec was used as a shutdown C... but somehow, now that Vanek has been taken off his line, he had no problem putting Gionta on the 3rd line and give Plekanec two offense first wingers...

somehow in MT mind, Vanek couldnt play a shutdown role so he put him on DD RW, and THEN he rearrage #14 line to give it some offense... (funny thing, pretty much everyone here agreed months ago that Gionta was dragging down Plekanec offensively)

of course he couldnt try Plek, Gallagher, Vanek or Galchenyuk, Vanek, Plek before (or Briere, Plek, Vanek, whatever)... he had to give his best forward to DD first!
Exactly this. E-CH=0, you really should try reading this.

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03-29-2014, 09:18 PM
  #42
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But that's the whole point, isn't it? Can you really say that it's DD getting the "best" out of all those players rather than him benefiting a lot from always playing with good players?

I mean can you honestly say that Montreal and MT have made any effort whatsoever to "distribute our offense" or find "matches that fit"? Pacioretty is never off DD's line. Gallagher was never taken off that line despite struggling. Vanek has spent roughly 21% of his time at ES with DD since joining the Habs; with Plekanec it's 3.73%. On the PP those numbers jump up to 54% for DD and drop to 3.4% for Plekanec.

The issue is that we never even try to find combinations that work outside of the ones for DD; seriously, the Plekanec-Gallagher-Galchenyuk line looks pretty good, Briere's been noticeable as the 3rd C, and even Gionta is looking better on the 3rd line, no? But all of this only came about as an afterthought to once again giving DD the best players available...and for what? 53 points (projected)? I don't honestly think that NOT having Plekanec play with good wingers, NOT having Galchenyuk in the Top 6, NOT playing Briere at Center, and a host of other issues are really a good trade off for that return...
Patches wants to play with DD.

Vanek was given the choice: Plek or DD.

Vanek decided to play on the right with DD intead of playing with Plekanec.

Do you really think that Vanek was forced to play with DD?
He was with Plek at first.

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03-29-2014, 09:26 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by 24get View Post
Patches wants to play with DD.

Vanek was given the choice: Plek or DD.

Vanek decided to play on the right with DD intead of playing with Plekanec.

Do you really think that Vanek was forced to play with DD?
He was with Plek at first.
Source?

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03-29-2014, 09:39 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
thing is, Plekanec was used as a shutdown C... but somehow, now that Vanek has been taken off his line, he had no problem putting Gionta on the 3rd line and give Plekanec two offense first wingers...

somehow in MT mind, Vanek couldnt play a shutdown role so he put him on DD RW, and THEN he rearrage #14 line to give it some offense... (funny thing, pretty much everyone here agreed months ago that Gionta was dragging down Plekanec offensively)

of course he couldnt try Plek, Gallagher, Vanek or Galchenyuk, Vanek, Plek before (or Briere, Plek, Vanek, whatever)... he had to give his best forward to DD first!
Or let's fault Therrien for thinking that as much as DD and Pac needs to go together, that Gionta and Pleks also needed that. Somehow, the thought to remove Gionta from the top 6, his captain, probably one of our best 2-way player, playing with the best 2-way centerman, for the role he wanted them to play, it was then impossible to separate that pairing. He saw the light based on the fact that we needed more offense. And the fact that just before Gallagher and Galchenyuk was reunited with Pleks, that Therrien tried to have a EGG line reunion that, while not for long, didn't worked out. Not for long though, Pleks and both kids started to work well from the get go.

I guess that in practices and in games, coaching staff thought that Vanek would have a better chemistry with DD and Pac then with Pleks. Is it worth it? Well that DD line produces. And for a change, Plekanec has rarely played with 2 wingers like those kids are. And you have to hope that while still the best 2-way C, that Pleks will have more offensive opportunities.

For sure, Therrien was way too slow at adapting. But it's all great to talk about the "best players", but again, if DD is hated so much, is surely because those wingers don't play with the best centerman. So which is it? Isn't Therrien by putting our 2 best wingers with not the best centerman is actually a sign of trying to have some strengths on every line? Or should those guys play with Pleks, the best centerman of the team, so that it then provokes unbalancing the lines? I guess I'll have in response that it's rare that you don't put your 2 best wingers with the best C well then if true....the debate about putting all your eggs in the same basket doesn't apply.

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03-29-2014, 10:34 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winter Eclipse View Post
Source?
Vanek was with Pleky.
He said he wanted to be on the left (see Video.canadiens.nhl.com).

As for Vanek playing on the right with DD and Patches.
He was tried on the left with DD and patches and after two games he was playing on the right with DD and Paciorretty.

As for the source, it was said on RDS.
Feel free to dig (I think it was on L'AC).
The switch happened during the game against Boston.
Previous game he was playing with Plek.

That is so easy to write "Source".

Feel free to prove that I am wrong...

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03-29-2014, 10:36 PM
  #46
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Not sure what the fixation is on this guy, but will say this. Glad he's a Hab.

Awesome player.

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03-29-2014, 10:37 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Winter Eclipse View Post
Source?
Actually on RDS thay said the choice to Vanek was: you play on the right with DD and Patches or you play on the left with Plekanec.

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03-29-2014, 10:42 PM
  #48
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But that's the whole point, isn't it? Can you really say that it's DD getting the "best" out of all those players rather than him benefiting a lot from always playing with good players?
As of this writing, Patches is one of the Top 5 goalscorers in the entire NHL. In the goal-scoring category, he's ahead of Sidney Crosby in spite of playing 7 fewer games than Crosby. Do you honestly think this isn't Patches' best? I mean, if not, just who do you think Patches is? Guy Lafleur? Rocket Richard?

Yes, DD is getting the best out of his wingers. He is absolutely earning his spot on the first line, and his ice-time. As long as the team keeps winning (which they obviously are right now), there's no good reason to break up a red-hot first line that's playing a huge role in our success.

And as you yourself pointed out, Therrien has found other line combinations that work pretty well for the second through fourth lines. Is he benefiting from Vanek's impact on the roster? Of course, and that's kind of the point of making an acquisition like that. As some of us said in the past, we were weak on the wings, and it made it harder to get good line combinations going. The addition of Vanek means that we have a great answer for finishing the top DD-Patches line, which in turn means we don't have to turn to Gallagher or Bourque for that.

DD and Briere are both best playing Center between two big wingers, with at least one having a scoring touch. At the same time, Gallagher sparks whatever line he's put on.

So now Bourque (big winger, some offensive talent) can be given to Briere, and Gallagher can be given to Pleks. It's win-win-win... And win again if we can reunite Prust-Weise-Moen after they come back from injury. 4 lines all doing the jobs you want them to do, all balanced and getting the most out of their players' distinct talents.

So what is there to complain about? Eller? Eller's struggles are at least partly his own fault, frankly. He has a lot of good hockey skills and talents, but he really needs to relearn how to use his linemates better.

As for Chucky, he's having a sophomore slump. He's hardly the first to have one, and it's not going to kill his career. I'm confident he'll bounce back next season, or even in this year's playoffs.


Quote:
I mean can you honestly say that Montreal and MT have made any effort whatsoever to "distribute our offense" or find "matches that fit"?
Sure they have. They recognized the following:

1. We needed an actual conventional bang/crash line for the 4th line. So once we had healthy personnel to deliver it, it happened. Unfortunately, they didn't stay healthy for long.

2. What I said earlier about DD, Briere, and Gally. All of this is clearly informing our line-up choices. Vanek simply gives us the options to make more balanced/complementary lines.


Quote:
Pacioretty is never off DD's line.
When you have a winger who's one of the Top 5 in goal-scoring in the entire NHL, you give him the linemates that he wants, and you do not **** with his chemistry.


Last edited by Darth Joker: 03-29-2014 at 10:48 PM.
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03-29-2014, 10:42 PM
  #49
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Or let's fault Therrien for thinking that as much as DD and Pac needs to go together, that Gionta and Pleks also needed that. Somehow, the thought to remove Gionta from the top 6, his captain, probably one of our best 2-way player, playing with the best 2-way centerman, for the role he wanted them to play, it was then impossible to separate that pairing. He saw the light based on the fact that we needed more offense. And the fact that just before Gallagher and Galchenyuk was reunited with Pleks, that Therrien tried to have a EGG line reunion that, while not for long, didn't worked out. Not for long though, Pleks and both kids started to work well from the get go.

I guess that in practices and in games, coaching staff thought that Vanek would have a better chemistry with DD and Pac then with Pleks. Is it worth it? Well that DD line produces. And for a change, Plekanec has rarely played with 2 wingers like those kids are. And you have to hope that while still the best 2-way C, that Pleks will have more offensive opportunities.

For sure, Therrien was way too slow at adapting. But it's all great to talk about the "best players", but again, if DD is hated so much, is surely because those wingers don't play with the best centerman. So which is it? Isn't Therrien by putting our 2 best wingers with not the best centerman is actually a sign of trying to have some strengths on every line? Or should those guys play with Pleks, the best centerman of the team, so that it then provokes unbalancing the lines? I guess I'll have in response that it's rare that you don't put your 2 best wingers with the best C well then if true....the debate about putting all your eggs in the same basket doesn't apply.
for some odd reason, Plek and Gionta on the same line is not needed anymore

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03-29-2014, 10:49 PM
  #50
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He's playing well and with Vanek and Patches flanking him he is in his element. As a strictly offensive player he does his job.

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