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Subban's next contract

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Old
03-29-2014, 03:50 PM
  #51
Scuba-Steve
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Subban at 7.5M$/Avg for 8 years
Vanek at 7.25M$/Avg for 7 or 8 years
Markov at 5.25M$/Avg for 3 years

Do it Bergy!

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Old
03-29-2014, 03:57 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
You have a strange vision of what consist negociations...
That was a bit of hyperbole.

However, if we lowball Vanek at the start, he will simply go on to Minnesota since his wife probably is pushing him in that direction anyway.

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Old
03-29-2014, 03:58 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beige Van View Post
Apples and oranges. Those players were signed in the previous CBA. Not to mention the cap increasing substantially.
Doughty at 7M with a 60M cap is same as 8.28 over 71M cap.
So giving PK 8.28 is actually paying him same as Doughty.
Now we are talking about Apples and Apples...

The whole Team Canada seems to think that Doughty is better than PK.
Maybe they are all wrong and we should pay PK 9M.
Back in 2010, one was in AHL while the other was top-4 in team Canada (it was Keith, Weber, Neidermayer then Doughty then the rest).

I honestly think that the usage of PK in team Canada has decrease his value.
Also, this season is nowhere near Norris trophy nomination.
If he is not top-6 in team Canada, I don't see him being a top-6 in the league.

One thing for sure, I prefer Karlsson at 6.5M than PK at 7M.
At the same time, I prefer Subban at 6.5M than Phaneuf at 7M.

Just to put things in perspective: Pietrangelo was signed under the new CBA (sept 2013), same with Bouwmeester (August 2013).

Tough to see PK with 8M even under the new CBA.

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Old
03-29-2014, 04:00 PM
  #54
PricePkPatch
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
That was a bit of hyperbole.

However, if we lowball Vanek at the start, he will simply go on to Minnesota since his wife probably is pushing him in that direction anyway.
Now. If we lowball Vanek, he will just state a higher starting negotiation price.

If Management and him cannot agree to a proper number, then Vanek will go elsewhere.

If Vanek cannot find a more appealing offer elsewhere, maybe he will turnaround and come back. Ya never know.

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Old
03-29-2014, 05:21 PM
  #55
Beige Van
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 24get View Post
Doughty at 7M with a 60M cap is same as 8.28 over 71M cap.
So giving PK 8.28 is actually paying him same as Doughty.
Now we are talking about Apples and Apples...

The whole Team Canada seems to think that Doughty is better than PK.
Maybe they are all wrong and we should pay PK 9M.
Back in 2010, one was in AHL while the other was top-4 in team Canada (it was Keith, Weber, Neidermayer then Doughty then the rest).

I honestly think that the usage of PK in team Canada has decrease his value.
Also, this season is nowhere near Norris trophy nomination.
If he is not top-6 in team Canada, I don't see him being a top-6 in the league.

One thing for sure, I prefer Karlsson at 6.5M than PK at 7M.
At the same time, I prefer Subban at 6.5M than Phaneuf at 7M.

Just to put things in perspective: Pietrangelo was signed under the new CBA (sept 2013), same with Bouwmeester (August 2013).

Tough to see PK with 8M even under the new CBA.
It is a little disingenuous to say Subban is not top 6 on team Canada, unless you think Vlasic, Bouwmeester, and Hamhuis are better. And Subban has a Norris while Doughty doesn't. I'm not going to say that one is better than the other, but they are very comparable. Furthermore, Doughty didn't have to sign a ridiculously undervalued bridge contract like Subban; he got that contract after his ELC. It's 2014, not 2010 so I'm not sure what the Vancouver olympic team has anything to do the matter. Face it, PK is going to get paid and paid handsomely, either by the Habs or one of the other 29 teams in the league.

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Old
03-29-2014, 06:04 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beige Van View Post
It is a little disingenuous to say Subban is not top 6 on team Canada, unless you think Vlasic, Bouwmeester, and Hamhuis are better. And Subban has a Norris while Doughty doesn't. I'm not going to say that one is better than the other, but they are very comparable. Furthermore, Doughty didn't have to sign a ridiculously undervalued bridge contract like Subban; he got that contract after his ELC. It's 2014, not 2010 so I'm not sure what the Vancouver olympic team has anything to do the matter. Face it, PK is going to get paid and paid handsomely, either by the Habs or one of the other 29 teams in the league.

vlasic would be my norris choice

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Old
03-29-2014, 06:09 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beige Van View Post
It is a little disingenuous to say Subban is not top 6 on team Canada, unless you think Vlasic, Bouwmeester, and Hamhuis are better. And Subban has a Norris while Doughty doesn't. I'm not going to say that one is better than the other, but they are very comparable. Furthermore, Doughty didn't have to sign a ridiculously undervalued bridge contract like Subban; he got that contract after his ELC. It's 2014, not 2010 so I'm not sure what the Vancouver olympic team has anything to do the matter. Face it, PK is going to get paid and paid handsomely, either by the Habs or one of the other 29 teams in the league.
Pietrangelo is the closest comparison for PK, Subban will get a touch more for having to do a bridge deal, I predict 8 yrs $58MM $7.25AAV

Hopefully MB and the other GMs use the cap going up to upgrade the middle level players (3rd line/D pairings) and not just overpay the stars and fill out rosters with minor leaguers

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Old
03-29-2014, 06:28 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
PK $8.5, Markov $6 and Vanek $7.14?

With numbers like that, we will have overpaid Subban and grossly overpaid Markov and Vanek is playing elsewhere.
As brainiac said, you can play with the numbers if you want... the point was more that we can fit Vanek/Subban/Markov at pretty high cap hits.

That said, if you expect Subban to make the same as Phaneuf who is making 7M then you're dreaming. He will not be taking a paycut after what we made him go through either. I'd be surprised if Subban accepted less than 8M per.

Markov currently makes 5.75M.. a raise to 6M is not a huge stretch.

The islanders offered 7M/7years to Vanek. Getzlaf makes 8.2M.. I don't know how much you expect Vanek to get.

I think the numbers were fairly reasonable. But I'm not an agent or GM.

EDIT: But worse come to worse, give Vanek 8M too... and trade someone. Moen, Prust, I don't care.


Last edited by E = CH²: 03-29-2014 at 06:36 PM.
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Old
03-29-2014, 06:35 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
As brainiac said, you can play with the numbers if you want... the point was more that we can fit Vanek/Subban/Markov at pretty high cap hits.

That said, if you expect Subban to make the same as Phaneuf who is making 7M then you're dreaming. He will not be taking a paycut after what we made him go through either. I'd be surprised if Subban accepted less than 8M per.

Markov currently makes 5.75M.. a raise to 6M is not a huge stretch.

The islanders offered 7M/7years to Vanek. Getzlaf makes 8.2M.. I don't know how much you expect Vanek to get.

I think the numbers were fairly reasonable. But I'm not an agent or GM.
Just saw his 6th goal as a Canadien. $8.5 easy.

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Old
03-29-2014, 06:37 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Just saw his 6th goal as a Canadien. $8.5 easy.
I edited my post to say.. even if it's 8.5M which is the same as Perry is making... Then do it and make some sacrifices elsewhere. Trade Moen, Prust.. buyout Bourque ... anything..This might all be moot if he doesn't want to sign here though.

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Old
03-29-2014, 06:55 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
I edited my post to say.. even if it's 8.5M which is the same as Perry is making... Then do it and make some sacrifices elsewhere. Trade Moen, Prust.. buyout Bourque ... anything..This might all be moot if he doesn't want to sign here though.
Agree.

But let's keep Prust.

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Old
03-30-2014, 05:37 AM
  #62
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isn't the cap going up to 80 million in '15-16? That 9 million raise would be enough to take care of Gallagher and Glachenyuk for awhile I'm sure.

the trickiest part is next year. it would be nice if we could get PK for less than 8 and Markov at 5. That would help in signing Vanek for sure. I think PK would settle for less than 8. Don't know if Markov would take less then what he's making but if I was MB I'd sure try.

I think we could move one of Bourque or Briere.

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Old
03-30-2014, 06:07 AM
  #63
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Bourque has 2 years left on his contract at 3.33 million, and Briere has 1 year left at 4 million.

Buying them both out would reduce the total cap hit to 2.44 million, a reduction of 4.89 million. However, we would then have an additional 2.43 million on the books in 2015-2016, and and 1.11 million the two years after that.

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Old
03-30-2014, 07:15 AM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scuba-Steve View Post
Subban at 7.5M$/Avg for 8 years
Vanek at 7.25M$/Avg for 7 or 8 years
Markov at 5.25M$/Avg for 3 years

Do it Bergy!
People who think Subban is gonna get 7.5M are probably dreaming. In a world where Phaneuf got 7M... you'd think a Norris is worth more than 0.5M. Especially with the lowballing and all... I strongly doubt Meehan/Subban accept that number.

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Old
03-30-2014, 07:50 AM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
People who think Subban is gonna get 7.5M are probably dreaming. In a world where Phaneuf got 7M... you'd think a Norris is worth more than 0.5M. Especially with the lowballing and all... I strongly doubt Meehan/Subban accept that number.
False equivalency. Everybody knows it's a horrendeous contract. You cannot use it as a measuring stick.

Players were not offered Gomez-grade contracts after Gomez signed his albatross.

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Old
03-30-2014, 08:47 AM
  #66
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Subban and Vanek won't anything under 8m

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Old
03-30-2014, 09:18 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Nedved View Post
i'm not sure. that's the gm's job. You would think they could trade for a young dman, prospect, and maybe 1 or 2 1st rounders.

let's say Phoenix:

Yandle, (d prospect) and a 1st.

I think it makes us better, and I think it puts the coyotes into a better spot to win a cup.
No, its the GMs job to keep the best blueliner we've had since Chelios. He is the backbone of this blueline and is irreplaceable. He's also 24 years old and coming into his prime now.

MB had the chance to do things right the first time and ****ed it up. He gets a mulligan for it but now its time to pay up. No excuse for him if he ****s it up again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Do you want Vanek or another elite Winger on this team?

Blow the bank on Subban and we are back to the team we have been for the last several years. A team without an elite goal scorer.
Lose Subban and this team has zero shot at a cup. We have Max and can afford to lose Vanek. We can't lose Subban.

If its an either/or scenario (which it shouldn't be) then Subban is the right choice its a no brainer.

Vanek is 30 and while he'll be productive into his 30s he's actually past his prime. Subban is already arguably the best blueliner in the league and is just coming into his prime. We have nobody who comes close to being capable of being a number one blueliner and finding one would be next to impossible.

Want to make space? Get rid of Briere. Never should've signed him to begin with.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 24get View Post
Explain to me how PK is better than Doughty, Weber, Chara.
Its been explained many times here and he's got the Norris to prove it.

He's every bit as good as any of them and is significantly younger than Weber or Chara. He's going to be getting better. In 8 years he'll still be in his prime and those two will be out of the league.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Then we can talk about 8 years at 8-10M.
We'll have to talk about it now.

Not only because he's worth it but because we were stupid enough to lowball him last time around. He's well worth that cash regardless but now we'll probably have to pay it because we played hardball with him.

And what kind of a message does it send when we force a player to take way less than he's worth, say go prove it, have him win a Norris and then not back up what we said... Pay him! He's earned it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Anyway, every month there is a thread about PK's contract and his salary increases by 500K every time.

So let's keep this up and we will be paying him 12M.
Who needs Vanek and Markov when you have PK?
Not sure how offering 8 x 8 makes more sense to you for a 30 year old forward instead of a 24 year old blueliner. Esp when that blueliner is infinitely better.

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Old
03-30-2014, 10:37 AM
  #68
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Some serious cases of hypocapspaceophobia around here.

Habs are actually not that bad cap-wise. With Gio off the book, the only two really bad contracts are Bourque and Briere. There rest are either very good or fair and you could argue that a few guys are making just a little too much, but nothing crippling.

No problem here. There's a reason we were able to get Vanek at the deadline, after all.

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Old
03-30-2014, 11:08 AM
  #69
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Anything between $7m and $8m will be fair value.

He hasn't looked as good lately, but a large part of that can be attributed to playing with Bouillon. Those two are disastrous together. If we can find a stable mobile defenseman to play with him, no doubt in my mind that he'll show some now consistency.

It is also to be expected that Subban continues to improve for the duration of an 8 year contract. So that $7-8m can eventually look like a bargain down the road. His durability adds to his value as well.

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Old
03-30-2014, 11:18 AM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Brainiac View Post
Some serious cases of hypocapspaceophobia around here.

Habs are actually not that bad cap-wise. With Gio off the book, the only two really bad contracts are Bourque and Briere. There rest are either very good or fair and you could argue that a few guys are making just a little too much, but nothing crippling.

No problem here. There's a reason we were able to get Vanek at the deadline, after all.
Yeah, I think MB is a cap freak, sending Beaulieu down and recalling him like 4 times in a row. I would even say Bourque at 3,33M isn't that bad for a top 9 player, the only contracts I don't like are Gionta and Brière.

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Old
03-30-2014, 11:29 AM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Do you want Vanek or another elite Winger on this team?

Blow the bank on Subban and we are back to the team we have been for the last several years. A team without an elite goal scorer.
Then we become a team with a terrible defence (losing an elite d-man) while keeping one of our two elite goal scorers. That's a terrible idea.

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Old
03-30-2014, 11:38 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Comfortably Numb View Post
Yeah, I think MB is a cap freak, sending Beaulieu down and recalling him like 4 times in a row. I would even say Bourque at 3,33M isn't that bad for a top 9 player, the only contracts I don't like are Gionta and Brière.
Maybe not MB, but someone on the team is in charge of maximizing cap use. That's exactly how they got Vanek. They were one of the teams able to take the salary.

If they can sign him, however, no need for deadline deals next year, so it's all good.

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Old
03-30-2014, 12:38 PM
  #73
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Doughty cap hit = 7

therefore subban = 6.25 M


in a perfect world... it will be 8 for 8 though

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Old
03-30-2014, 01:01 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by cjbhab View Post
Doughty cap hit = 7

therefore subban = 6.25 M


in a perfect world... it will be 8 for 8 though
Doughty is so overrated since the olympics for producing in qualification against bad teams who gave him all the room in the world because they played so defensive, it's crazy.

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Old
03-30-2014, 01:15 PM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
People who think Subban is gonna get 7.5M are probably dreaming. In a world where Phaneuf got 7M... you'd think a Norris is worth more than 0.5M. Especially with the lowballing and all... I strongly doubt Meehan/Subban accept that number.
Apples and oranges..

Subban is still restricted - Phaneuf was going to be a UFA.

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