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David Desharnais Discussions - Part III - Montreal's Masterton nominee

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Old
03-30-2014, 08:46 AM
  #101
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Great signing, called it all along .......

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03-30-2014, 08:46 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Bryson View Post
If Desharnais is such the demi-god who turns scrubs into 50-goal scorers why pray tell did it take twice as long playing with DD instead of Plekanec before Vanek scored his first goal? Could it prove that chemistry takes time to develop? Nah can't be that.
1- He doesn't turn "Scrubs" into 50-goal scorers. I know you are making an hyperbole, but it's still an incredibly stupid exageration of the arguments put on the table. What we are saying is that Desharnais's contribution may turn a 25-30 goal scorer into a 30-35. Evidence: Cole.
2- If you actually WATCHED the game, you'd also see that Vanek came close to score quite a number of times before potting his first. You cannot determine the effectiveness of a pairing just by looking at their results. It was obvious that Vanek was getting much more opportunities while on Desharnais's wing than on Plek's.

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03-30-2014, 09:15 AM
  #103
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Last 54 games, he's been much better than Johansen. Yet, one gets all the hype, the other hate.
Is this a serious post?

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03-30-2014, 09:37 AM
  #104
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The guy has come a long way this year. He's impressing me every game.

Cole gets a career high 35 goals with him, Pacioretty scores over 30 twice and Vanek has a higher ppg pace than he did with Tavares. His wingers get feed after feed after feed. He's a battler as well.

He's been good since he got into the league. The anomaly were the games after he signed the contract and the 19 starting the season. Right now, he gets hated on because he's a short player. He's getting better as the games are getting harder.

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03-30-2014, 09:52 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
I think it's somewhat impressive how some can ignore hate on so many other players on the team and only care about certain whipping boys because they're French. Poor Murray/Bourque. Heck DD has such a huge fan following that the fact a few people not thinking he's ideal for this team makes him a 'whipping boy'.
You know what the difference is ?

Everyone agrees Murray and Bourque are terrible. Because they are and have been. Hell, Bourque has like 15 pts this season.

DD hasn't been terrible and isn't deserving of any hate at all. He's been one of our player that has been producing and contributing. He should be getting praise actually. I wasn't defending him when he sucked in the first 20 games. I was mad at him too and the hate was justified. It's not anymore.

You'd think fans would support a local player more and have a positive bias toward him but it's the opposite, there's a negative bias.

Not everyone hates DD because he's a local franco, some have legit (but misguided IMO ) reasons but there are some on these boards who do.

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03-30-2014, 09:57 AM
  #106
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On just what basis, statistical or otherwise, do you make this claim?
On the basis that Plecs has come very close to DD's production given far less to work with. On the basis that Galchenyuk has more raw offensive talent that any player we've had since Kovalev. And on the basis that Eller's trajectory was very good until our idiot coach got in the way.

More than any of this though... Max and Vanek are superb players. Any center who can tie his own skates is going to put up numbers with them. Any of those guys could center that line just fine. Put Tyler Bozak there and they'll score, put Kyle Wellwood there and they'll score. Vanek and Max aren't going to suddenly forget how to play hockey because they have a different center.

And again, no team would give you anything of value for DD at all because they know this.

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03-30-2014, 10:06 AM
  #107
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If Galchenyuk was doing exactly what DD was doing with Vanek and Pacioretty, this board would be calling him a superstar.

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03-30-2014, 10:16 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by hogtownhabsfan View Post
If Galchenyuk was doing exactly what DD was doing with Vanek and Pacioretty, this board would be calling him a superstar.
winner

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Old
03-30-2014, 10:21 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by hogtownhabsfan View Post
If Galchenyuk was doing exactly what DD was doing with Vanek and Pacioretty, this board would be calling him a superstar.
If Galchenyuk was playing with those guys he'd probably be getting carried by them to an extent too. But we'd be developing the best offensive prospect we've had since Guy Lafleur so it would make sense.

They're producing, that's cool. That's how it will be for the forseeable future. But no, none of this changes my opinion on DD. Only thing that's changed is that his linemates are even better than they were before...

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03-30-2014, 10:23 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
If Galchenyuk was playing with those guys he'd probably be getting carried by them to an extent too. But we'd be developing the best offensive prospect we've had since Guy Lafleur so it would make sense.
I actually do not believe Galchenyuk would produce on par with Desharnais, even with the same wingers. Chuckie is still damn young and raw at the moment.

Maybe in 1-2 years.

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03-30-2014, 10:24 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
I actually do not believe Galchenyuk would produce on par with Desharnais, even with the same wingers. Chuckie is still damn young and raw at the moment.

Maybe in 1-2 years.
Problem is... we don't know.

And we don't know because our coach has basically annointed DD to be our only offensive center. We should be giving this kid more opportunities than we do.

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03-30-2014, 10:26 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Problem is... we don't know.

And we don't know because our coach has basically annointed DD to be our only offensive center. We should be giving this kid more opportunities than we do.
We don't know because our coach is not stupid enough to break something that is working very well.

our current top-3 lines have proven to be effective at the moment. None of them are knowing extreme struggles like at the beginning of the season. Why disrupt Chuck-Plek-Gally?

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Old
03-30-2014, 10:26 AM
  #113
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Well, all I can say is I'm glad most members here, including myself, aren't the GM.

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Old
03-30-2014, 10:30 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
We don't know because our coach is not stupid enough to break something that is working very well.

our current top-3 lines have proven to be effective at the moment. None of them are knowing extreme struggles like at the beginning of the season. Why disrupt Chuck-Plek-Gally?
Why was DD the number one center to begin with? He didn't earn it.

Again man, Vanek and Max are elite wingers. Give any of those three other centers that we have that kind of opportunity and they'll all produce, no doubt about that. Galchenyuk might make that line ten times better, but we don't know because we haven't tried anything different. It's DD or bust for MT.

Ridiculous to think that he's the only guy who can produce with those two man.

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Old
03-30-2014, 10:31 AM
  #115
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Originally Posted by hogtownhabsfan View Post
If Galchenyuk was doing exactly what DD was doing with Vanek and Pacioretty, this board would be calling him a superstar.
If Galchenyuk miraculously was not only center but with Vanek and Pacioretty, it'd mean DD was traded.

Bozak 45 points in 52 games vs Desharnais 48 points in last 54 games. Both playing with top end wingers. Former gets questioned, no bias. Latter gets questioned, it's because he's French.

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Old
03-30-2014, 10:44 AM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
If Galchenyuk miraculously was not only center but with Vanek and Pacioretty, it'd mean DD was traded.

Bozak 45 points in 52 games vs Desharnais 48 points in last 54 games. Both playing with top end wingers. Former gets questioned, no bias. Latter gets questioned, it's because he's French.
Bozak is a good example.

Its like somebody citing chemistry with Steve Rucchin playing between Kariya and Selanne. What chemistry? There's a center who's been blessed to play with two top shelf wingers... that's it. Same thing here only on a smaller scale.

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03-30-2014, 10:57 AM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
If Galchenyuk miraculously was not only center but with Vanek and Pacioretty, it'd mean DD was traded.

Bozak 45 points in 52 games vs Desharnais 48 points in last 54 games. Both playing with top end wingers. Former gets questioned, no bias. Latter gets questioned, it's because he's French.
Out of curiosity who is a better wing duo, kessel+jvr or vanek+pacioretty. Maybe the former because kessel is sick but both are excellent pairs.

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03-30-2014, 11:20 AM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Bozak is a good example.

Its like somebody citing chemistry with Steve Rucchin playing between Kariya and Selanne. What chemistry? There's a center who's been blessed to play with two top shelf wingers... that's it. Same thing here only on a smaller scale.
You see a similarity between the Kariya/Selanne duo and the Gallagher/Pacioretty duo? Or even the Kessel/JVR duo?

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Old
03-30-2014, 11:21 AM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Why was DD the number one center to begin with? He didn't earn it.

Again man, Vanek and Max are elite wingers. Give any of those three other centers that we have that kind of opportunity and they'll all produce, no doubt about that. Galchenyuk might make that line ten times better, but we don't know because we haven't tried anything different. It's DD or bust for MT.

Ridiculous to think that he's the only guy who can produce with those two man.
It's not really hard to understand, man. Galchenyuk was needed at wing before the Vanek trade because he was, with Pacioretty, our only skilled left winger (Bourque doesn't count let's face it). He was therefore kept on the wing. DD was given a chance with Patches and Gallagher(deserved or undeserved, it doesn't matter at this point), grabbed it by the balls and ran with it.

Now, we are in the thick of it, trying to win and it wouldn't make sense to break the line up to give a chance to Galchenyuk hoping that he will develop more at center between Vanek and Pacioretty.

Also, I want to keep Vanek and I don't think that putting Vanek on the wings of a guy that's practically a rookie is a good sales pitch. Next year, when( and if) the ink has dried on his contract, why not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Bozak is a good example.

Its like somebody citing chemistry with Steve Rucchin playing between Kariya and Selanne. What chemistry? There's a center who's been blessed to play with two top shelf wingers... that's it. Same thing here only on a smaller scale.
Steve Rucchin was basically the defensive babysitter for Kariya and Selanne. He didn't have chemistry with them to the level that DD has chemistry with Patches. Notice how DD is relatively close in points to Patches while Rucchin is world's away from Selanne and Kariya ? That's because he wasn't involved in their plays like DD is involved in Patches or Vanek's plays.


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Old
03-30-2014, 11:21 AM
  #120
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for some odd reason, Plek and Gionta on the same line is not needed anymore
Not really that odd. Though it should have taken place earlier, the reason is that for Therrien, he had to go back to the EGG line once more to see if that could be the offensive other line that could be working. 'Cause that's actually what he did before giving the kids to Pleks. He really had no intention of separating Gionta and Pleks. Then, saw that Eller was going nowhere, he had NO choice but to remove Gionta. It's not that it's not needed. It's that he doesn't have a choice. And the problem is that we won 5 in a row. And that everybody sees the chemistry that the DD line is having. I'd have no problem bringing Gallagher back on that line and have Vanek with Pleks and Galchy. No problem whatsoever. But for that to happen, Therrien needs to renew his confidence in Eller in a defensive role AND the chemistry and/or the lack of offense on Pleks line stops.

Strange things happening though. Idea is to have a team that wins. People keep saying that you need to take the full year into account when it's time to assess Desharnais play. True. Point though was never to dismiss the first 20 games to say that he had a fantastic season, even DD himself wishes he has a better season next year. But it was mostly to say that he was hot since that time until now. But then, the same people who wants to take the full DD season to show how average he is, are the ones who keeps saying that LATELY, our record isn't too great and that chances needs to be made. Well if you have to take DD full season into account....you have to take the team's full season into account as well. And it's 93 points with a possibility of reaching 100 points. As a regular season, as much as we like it to be, we can't call it a failure. Then, the playoffs, this whole other season starts, and THEN we will be able to re-assess this 1st line and the entire team. An exit in 5 and then, fine....fire away. I will too. I know we don't have a team to do great against top teams. What saving us right now is the bad conference.

Hated the Therrien hiring from the get go. Wanted Roy and it wasn't even close. I still don't like TONS of things he's doing. But I need to be consequent and while without Vanek it was even more clear, I still believed that, this year, we didn't have a whole lot of pure talent on this team and he was also able to bring that sentiment that this team will fight till the end. Fortunately for me who doesn't like him very much, that type of "coaching" will not last long. And he will be gone in 1 or 2 years max. But this year.....he's doing a okay job despite the fact that he could have done an even better job if he would have had the talent to do it.


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Old
03-30-2014, 11:24 AM
  #121
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No Habs fan should be questioning or hating DD and his current play.
Most people were quite pleased with him when he centered MP and EC.
He went through a mental thing when his contract got done.
"finally made it" given his stature and history fairly understandable.
He is certainly back to doing the things that got him here in the first place.

The problem is simple we are all idealists to some extent.
What level of play does DD have to provide given his size?
Denis Savard like numbers?
Give this some thought.
If we are fortunate enough to re-sign TV,
we could possibly be looking at our first point per game player since forever.
The good news is we now have a great idea of what kind of player is required to make that line great.
The bad news is there just aren't that many available. I haven't seen that we are growing any either.

This discussion will not go away any time soon.
Both sides will have fodder after this years PO run.
For my part i think DD will do just fine this time around.

i won't even bother touching on anything else.
My Habs are all brothers stemming from the same maker.
i may become and have been critical of play but that is usually in the same vein as our intelligent posters

Good Luck DD and Go Habs Go

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03-30-2014, 11:32 AM
  #122
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Bozak is a good example.

Its like somebody citing chemistry with Steve Rucchin playing between Kariya and Selanne. What chemistry? There's a center who's been blessed to play with two top shelf wingers... that's it. Same thing here only on a smaller scale.
DD hasn't played with Vanek all year.

Over the past 10 games, DD has 12 pts (including 4 goals). I would be curious to see what he could do in a full season with those 2. Hope Vanek signs here and we get to find out.

Also, if you have two superstar wingers you don't need a superstar center as well. DD is a perfect complement to Vanek and Patch, he has a small cap hit and these 3 have perfect chemistry. They all complement each others really well.

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03-30-2014, 11:35 AM
  #123
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DD hasn't played with Vanek all year.

Over the past 10 games, DD has 12 pts (including 4 goals). I would be curious to see what he could do in a full season with those 2. Hope Vanek signs here and we get to find out.

Also, if you have two superstar wingers you don't need a superstar center as well. DD is a perfect complement to Vanek and Patch, he has a small cap hit and these 3 have perfect chemistry. They all complement each others really well.
Let's calculate for a moment the amount of points/cap hit of that line

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03-30-2014, 11:38 AM
  #124
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Not really that odd. Though it should have taken place earlier, the reason is that for Therrien, he had to go back to the EGG line once more to see if that could be the offensive other line that could be working. 'Cause that's actually what he did before giving the kids to Pleks. He really had no intention of separating Gionta and Pleks. Then, saw that Eller was going nowhere, he had NO choice but to remove Gionta. It's not that it's not needed. It's that he doesn't have a choice. And the problem is that we won 5 in a row. And that everybody sees the chemistry that the DD line is having. I'd have no problem bringing Gallagher back on that line and have Vanek with Pleks and Galchy. No problem whatsoever. But for that to happen, Therrien needs to renew his confidence in the Eller in a defensive role.

Strange things happening though. Idea is to have a team that wins. People keep saying that you need to take the full year into account when it's time to assess Desharnais play. True. Point though was never to dismiss the first 20 games to say that he had a fantastic season, even DD himself wishes he has a better season next year. But it was mostly to say that he was hot since that time until now. But then, the same people who wants to take the full DD season to show how average he is, are the ones who keeps saying that LATELY, our record isn't too great and that chances needs to be made. Well if you have to take DD full season into account....you have to take the team's full season into account as well. And it's 93 points with a possibility of reaching 100 points. As a regular season, as much as we like it to be, we can't call it a failure. Then, the playoffs, this whole other season starts, and THEN we will be able to re-assess this 1st line and the entire team. An exit in 5 and then, fine....fire away. I will too. I know we don't have a team to do great against top teams. What saving us right now is the bad conference.

Hated the Therrien hiring from the get go. Wanted Roy and it wasn't even close. I still don't like TONS of things he's doing. But I need to be consequent and while without Vanek it was even more clear, I still believed that, this year, we didn't have a whole lot of pure talent on this team and he was also able to bring that sentiment that this team will fight till the end. Fortunately for me who doesn't like him very much, that type of "coaching" will not last long. And he will be gone in 1 or 2 years max. But this year.....he's doing a okay job despite the fact that he could have done an even better job if he would have had the talent to do it.
I'm not sure this team ever had more 'pure talent' than it has right now. With the high unlikeliness of Vanek returning...it's doubtful the team will ever see as talented as a lineup. Yet if the team gets embarrassed again in the playoffs, people will excuse MT because the team was bad in 11/12. Price, Vanek, Pacioretty, Subban, Markov, Plekanec - proven top players. Then we have Desharnais, if he's as good as many claim, another one. Cheap secondary scoring - Galchenyuk/Gallagher. Decent veterans Gionta/Gorges.

If Habs can't go into a playoffs with this healthy lineup and avoid embarrassment, how can it not be the coach when much worse Habs teams facing much more adversity in terms of injuries were able to at least make it interesting.

If the Habs fail, either the players Habs rely on are as good as they are hyped and the coaching staff failed or the coaching staff did well and the players Habs rely on are not as good as they are hyped. I hope it's the former because the latter means the future is really bleak.


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03-30-2014, 11:39 AM
  #125
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Let's calculate for a moment the amount of points/cap hit of that line
gotta be better than Clarkson's 1.3 million per goal?

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