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Sean Couturier (June 25 update: cyst removed from his left foot; using crutches)

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Old
04-01-2014, 12:03 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by flyershockey View Post
Finding a center with the ability to fill a checking role is a hell of a lot easier than finding a top three defenseman in the game. There's nothing to suggest that Weber won't be elite well past his 35th birthday. That gives the Flyers 8-10 years of play from him. In that time, I'm sure they can find a way to put a couple of defensmen around him, as well as finding another checking center.
A mere "checking role" center isn't going to cut it. You need at least one elite two way center to compete. Every Cup winner going back nearly a decade has a guy who was recently a Selke candidate on it. Those players are not easy to find.

Just look at the Pens with Sutter vs Staal. They became far less dangerous after that trade, because while Sutter can play D, he isn't going to produce much offense at all. I would say it's one of the biggest obstacles standing between them and contender status.

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04-01-2014, 12:05 PM
  #27
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You put a #1 like Weber on this team without trading Sean Couturier and we would immediately be a cup contender. We need to figure out a way to find one in the off season. We are young and very talented, and we are missing one piece. Schenn/Laughton/All my firsts in the world are up for a player of that caliber.

I really wonder what a package of this could get us. I would reckon the Flyers wouldn't even be willing to part with that package.

B. Schenn
Scott Laughton
1st rounder
1st rounder

Wonder what moves Chicago has up it sleeves for the cap next year. They have 3 million is space. Brent Seabrook? I wouldn't mind kicking the tires lol


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04-01-2014, 12:07 PM
  #28
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A mere "checking role" center isn't going to cut it. You need at least one elite two way center to compete. Every Cup winner going back nearly a decade has a guy who was recently a Selke candidate on it. Those players are not easy to find.

Just look at the Pens with Sutter vs Staal. They became far less dangerous after that trade, because while Sutter can play D, he isn't going to produce much offense at all.
Well, Couturier isn't an elite two-way center, at least not yet. He certainly has that ability, but as of today, he's only an elite defensive center. Guess what else those teams had in common? They had elite level defenses, often led by one or more elite level defenders. Carolina is the only exception, and they really only got far because of a historic perfomance by Cam Ward.

Pittsburgh needs another two way threat? They've been a top five offense every year since they won the cup (outside of 2010-2011). The biggest thing standing between them and another cup is a combination of bad coaching and the fact that their defense/MAF can't stop a nose bleed.

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04-01-2014, 12:20 PM
  #29
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Well, Couturier isn't an elite two-way center, at least not yet. He certainly has that ability, but as of today, he's only an elite defensive center. Guess what else those teams had in common? They had elite level defenses, often led by one or more elite level defenders. Carolina is the only exception, and they really only got far because of a historic perfomance by Cam Ward.

Pittsburgh needs another two way threat? They've been a top five offense every year since they won the cup (outside of 2010-2011). The biggest thing standing between them and another cup is a combination of bad coaching and the fact that their defense/MAF can't stop a nose bleed.
They're a two line offensive threat and that's easy to shut down. The Islanders nearly did it, and Boston did it in spectacular fashion. We've been doing it, as well. You need a center who can play D while also scoring.

Yes, you also need a #1 like you described. I never said you didn't. But what's the point of getting that guy if it doesn't bring you any closer to contention? Couturier is very likely going to fill that two-way role we need; and if he hits 40 points with the competition he plays against and without PP time, then he's got to be considered elite; there are very few players who can do that. Trade him, and we aren't actually any closer to contention. If anything, it means we'll need to go into another retooling period. This is a tentative/borderline 3 line team. Without Couturier they become a 1 line offense. I don't trust Schenn to carry a heavy load and I don't trust Lecavalier, and there would be nobody who's all that great defensively down center, either.

This is why you just need to draft and develop your own Dmen. If you're constantly making this sort of trade your team will constantly be in limbo. The Flyers have tried that for ages and it's failed. It's well past time that they try to build their own team instead of trading for it.

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04-01-2014, 12:25 PM
  #30
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Grip it and rip it.

If moving B. Schenn & L. Schenn gets you the #2 pick or whatever for Ekblad, sure, think about it. Because I don't think losing those two players kills your team.

Trying to go for Weber every damn offseason would crash the roster too badly.

Right now it looks promising for the D-prospects in the pipeline.

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04-01-2014, 12:28 PM
  #31
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They're a two line offensive threat and that's easy to shut down. The Islanders nearly did it, and Boston did it in spectacular fashion. We've been doing it, as well. You need a center who can play D while also scoring.

Yes, you also need a #1 like you described. I never said you didn't. But what's the point of getting that guy if it doesn't bring you any closer to contention? Couturier is very likely going to fill that two-way role we need; and if he hits 40 points with the competition he plays against and without PP time, then he's got to be considered elite; there are very few players who can do that. Trade him, and we aren't actually any closer to contention. If anything, it means we'll need to go into another retooling period. This is a tentative/borderline 3 line team. Without Couturier they become a 1 line offense. I don't trust Schenn to carry a heavy load and I don't trust Lecavalier, and there would be nobody who's all that great defensively down center, either.

This is why you just need to draft and develop your own Dmen. If you're constantly making this sort of trade your team will constantly be in limbo. The Flyers have tried that for ages and it's failed. It's well past time that they try to build their own team instead of trading for it.
I never suggested otherwise. I was looking at it in terms of pure value.

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04-01-2014, 12:29 PM
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I never suggested otherwise. I was looking at it in terms of pure value.
I'm looking at it in terms of moving the team towards contention. Alrighty then.

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04-01-2014, 04:03 PM
  #33
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Well, Couturier isn't an elite two-way center, at least not yet. He certainly has that ability, but as of today, he's only an elite defensive center. Guess what else those teams had in common? They had elite level defenses, often led by one or more elite level defenders. Carolina is the only exception, and they really only got far because of a historic perfomance by Cam Ward.

Pittsburgh needs another two way threat? They've been a top five offense every year since they won the cup (outside of 2010-2011). The biggest thing standing between them and another cup is a combination of bad coaching and the fact that their defense/MAF can't stop a nose bleed.
PIT did not have an elite level defense in 2009. Gonchar, Scuderi, Orpik, Gill, Letang, Eaton. PIT finished 18th in GA.

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04-01-2014, 04:34 PM
  #34
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PIT did not have an elite level defense in 2009. Gonchar, Scuderi, Orpik, Gill, Letang, Eaton. PIT finished 18th in GA.
They did get career performances out of pretty much all of their defensemen not named Letang. That unit was very good for them on that run. It certainly helped that they also had the two best players in the world on the roster as well. No other team can throw that out there.

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04-01-2014, 04:38 PM
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Yeah, Gonchar was playing very well during that their runs. He's no Lidstrom obviously, but I remember he was damned good.

Every team has had in common: Great #1C, Great Two-Way C, Great #1D, and if not a great goaltender, they at least got good, reliable goaltending out of them. Interestingly, 5-5.5mil seems to be the ceiling on G cap hits...with several goalies making less. I guess it's better to sink that money into depth elsewhere; I'd like to see how things pan out for LA now that Quick is getting paid.

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04-01-2014, 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Yeah, Gonchar was playing very well during that their runs. He's no Lidstrom obviously, but I remember he was damned good.

Every team has had in common: Great #1C, Great Two-Way C, Great #1D, and if not a great goaltender, they at least got good, reliable goaltending out of them. Interestingly, 5-5.5mil seems to be the ceiling on G cap hits...with several goalies making less. I guess it's better to sink that money into depth elsewhere; I'd like to see how things pan out for LA now that Quick is getting paid.
Quick is making $7 million a year, but his cap hit is $5.8. I think being $300,000 over that $5.5 million range isn't the worst thing in the world. L.A.'s issue might be what some of the depth defensemen are making and even then, Willie Mitchell and Matt Greene come off the books at the end of this season and Robyn Regher is off the books next year. That's almost $10,000,000 right there. I'll give the Kings that - they've managed their salary cap very well.

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04-01-2014, 05:22 PM
  #37
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Quick is making $7 million a year, but his cap hit is $5.8. I think being $300,000 over that $5.5 million range isn't the worst thing in the world. L.A.'s issue might be what some of the depth defensemen are making and even then, Willie Mitchell and Matt Greene come off the books at the end of this season and Robyn Regher is off the books next year. That's almost $10,000,000 right there. I'll give the Kings that - they've managed their salary cap very well.
I could have sworn Quick's cap hit is in the 7s. So much for that.

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04-02-2014, 07:18 AM
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I could have sworn Quick's cap hit is in the 7s. So much for that.
Yeah, Lombardi is a pretty solid cap management GM.

As for Couturier, not sure if this has been mentioned before, but his development has been on par with that of Keith Primeau's. I feel pretty confident that next year, Couturier has a break out season offensively. I'd love to see him get PP time next year and be able to bank extra points on that as well. No reason to believe that he can't be a 55 - 60 point player next season.

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04-02-2014, 07:28 AM
  #39
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Coots still needs to get stronger and faster. If he had Joe Thornton speed he would be a 60 pt player.

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04-02-2014, 07:29 AM
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Yeah, Lombardi is a pretty solid cap management GM.

As for Couturier, not sure if this has been mentioned before, but his development has been on par with that of Keith Primeau's. I feel pretty confident that next year, Couturier has a break out season offensively. I'd love to see him get PP time next year and be able to bank extra points on that as well. No reason to believe that he can't be a 55 - 60 point player next season.
The only way he's going to get PP time is if Laughton is a good defensive center from the start. That way he can take some of Couturier's EV strength or PK time. Right now the only guy on the team that can take some of those minutes for Couturier is Giroux, and that wouldn't make any sense.

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04-02-2014, 01:32 PM
  #41
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It would be different if the Flyers were a Weber away from being a legitimate Stanley Cup contender. I know I said no to a Weber/Couturier trade because the Flyers aren't a legitimate Stanley Cup contender yet and to trade for Weber would put them no further ahead and would end up creating another hole in the lineup. Yes, Weber would be a fantastic addition and would be that legitimate top pairing defender this club needs. At the same time, the rest of the defense remains what it is - mediocre at best and the move would end up creating a big hole in the lineup as to who plays the Couturier role. Schenn can't do it, Vinny can't do it, Laughton hasn't played a game in the NHL yet, so we don't know if he can do it.
What? Adding the best defenseman in the league who is in the middle of his prime wouldn't put this team any closer to a cup? I'm a huge fan of Couturier but you take your chances on Laughton developing into a solid #3 and add Weber.

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04-02-2014, 01:36 PM
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What? Adding the best defenseman in the league who is in the middle of his prime wouldn't put this team any closer to a cup? I'm a huge fan of Couturier but you take your chances on Laughton developing into a solid #3 and add Weber.
It would take years for Laughton to hit his prime and he's far from guaranteed. They're seriously better off just building like a normal team and developing their recent investments in D.

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04-02-2014, 01:42 PM
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I think that honestly our best option this summer is to use the Schenns + 1st to attack the defensive problem. If we don't find anything worthwhile, look to move Lecavalier instead.

Don't move Laughton if you move the Schenns because eventually the idea would be for him to eventually replace Lecavalier as our third line center (he should be our fourth starting next season). Giving Laughton some of the shutdown responsibilities that are on Couturier's shoulders now would help ease Couturier into the role of a truly two-way second line center. It would free him up for more offensive us.

I think that's the right strategy going forward for our team.

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04-02-2014, 01:45 PM
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Honestly, I know it's to get us a D-man... but if it can give us an insanely good winger, then yeah...

Plus, the only two D-men that are that high are Ekblad and Fleury, and there can be 10 picks separating them too. If we were to go in between, I'd kill for Dal Colle or Draisaitl or Perlini. All 3 would be great on Giroux's wing.

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04-02-2014, 01:48 PM
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Honestly, I know it's to get us a D-man... but if it can give us an insanely good winger, then yeah...
I know the Ryan situation is annoying to bring up on the boards here, but I really think if he hits free-agency he's ours.

It's not something we should bank on, but we really don't need any wingers at the moment. Defense, defense, defense, defense, defense!

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04-02-2014, 01:50 PM
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I know the Ryan situation is annoying to bring up on the boards here, but I really think if he hits free-agency he's ours.

It's not something we should bank on, but we really don't need any wingers at the moment. Defense, defense, defense, defense, defense!
Coburn, Ghost, Gus, Morin, Hagg and Alt or hell, maybe even some other veteran D-man could help us in the future. I know we don't have a surefire #1, but we do need a real sniper as well.

I'd love Ryan here, but weirdly, if we got a high end winger, I feel it'd be more exciting.

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04-02-2014, 01:53 PM
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Coburn, Ghost, Gus, Morin, Hagg and Alt or hell, maybe even some other veteran D-man could help us in the future. I know we don't have a surefire #1, but we do need a real sniper as well.

I'd love Ryan here, but weirdly, if we got a high end winger, I feel it'd be more exciting.
Hmm wonder if Holmgren can convince kovalchuk to break his contract and play on G's wing? Trade schenns and the first for a top D man and that's it, flyers issues are resolved! Lol

In all seriousness though, could you imagine Kovy with a center like Giroux? That would be sick

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04-02-2014, 01:54 PM
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Coburn, Ghost, Gus, Morin, Hagg and Alt or hell, maybe even some other veteran D-man could help us in the future. I know we don't have a surefire #1, but we do need a real sniper as well.

I'd love Ryan here, but weirdly, if we got a high end winger, I feel it'd be more exciting.
Do you think we could jump the gun on Ryan...move 1st + 3rd + Schenns for something like Ryan + Wiercioch?

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04-02-2014, 01:55 PM
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Anyways, this thread is about Couts...

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04-02-2014, 01:57 PM
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I think that honestly our best option this summer is to use the Schenns + 1st to attack the defensive problem. If we don't find anything worthwhile, look to move Lecavalier instead.

Don't move Laughton if you move the Schenns because eventually the idea would be for him to eventually replace Lecavalier as our third line center (he should be our fourth starting next season). Giving Laughton some of the shutdown responsibilities that are on Couturier's shoulders now would help ease Couturier into the role of a truly two-way second line center. It would free him up for more offensive us.

I think that's the right strategy going forward for our team.
I just really have no desire for them to shop Brayden Schenn. I know a lot of people around here feel like he doesn't engage enough, but that's just not the kind of player he is. He's never going to dominate puck possession, but he does have the incredible ability to find himself in the right place at the right time. You can't dismiss that as luck. It's part of having good hockey sense and playing to your strengths. Longterm, I think he's the type of player that can thrive in the secondary scoring role behind Giroux. His physical play compliments some of the flashiness of a a Giroux led line. Even if he technically gets third line minutes behind Giroux and Couturier, he can still be really valuable to the offense. I have no problem with the Flyers running Giroux/Schenn/Couturier down the middle for the next 5-7 years.

As others have said, develop the defensemen we have and forget about chasing the big fish all the time. I really don't think any of them are that far off either. With the way clubs emphasize team defense anymore, your young defensemen aren't asked to play like world beaters on the back end. Every team in the league stresses a huge amount of back pressure which really helps the defense dictate the play. Look how many young defensemen have been able to just step in and play big roles for their teams. Brodin, Maatta, Carlson and Alzner a couple of years ago, Hamonic, Leddy, Dillon, Merrill, Gelinas, Tanev, DeKeyser, Trouba, Hamilton, Krug, Josi, etc. All guys that were able to step in and become solid NHL'ers in just their first or second year. Between Morin, Hagg, Ghost, and Alt, they have to a guy or two that can make a similar impact.

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