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Reason for Optimism?

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02-25-2007, 03:17 PM
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mrhockey193195
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Reason for Optimism?

Just something interesting I had been thinking about for a while now...

Messier came to NY in 1991-92, already regarded as a Superstar in the league, and had an MVP season in his first year. The Rangers were a huge hit in the regular season, but fell apart in the playoffs.

Jagr came to NY and in his first (full) season, 2005-06, had an MVP-caliber year. The Rangers were extremely good in the regular season, but absolutely fell apart in the first round of the post-season.

Then came 1992-93, which was a disaster for Messier (despite putting up respectable scoring numbers) and the Rangers. Rangers couldn't catch any breaks (i.e. Brian Leetch and the ankle injury), and missed the playoffs. Additionally, the team played their last few games at MSG having to hear boos and jeers from the Garden Faithful, and no one was given more of that treatment than Messier himself.

This year, 2006-07, has (so far) been a huge disappointment for the Rangers. Jagr hasn't been the dominant force he was a year prior, and despite still putting up very good offensive numbers (at least, very good in the assist department), he hasn't been able to lead this team to success. The Rangers, for all intents and purposes, have missed the playoffs. They haven't been able to catch any breaks this year, as just when they have started to play well, they are hit with major injuries (See Shanahan). And now the MSG crowd has started to let Jagr and co. hear it. People are even calling for Jagr, the captain, to be traded.

Coincidence?

We all know what happened in 1993-94.

Will it happen again in 2007-08?

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02-25-2007, 03:48 PM
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The difference is that the 91-92 Rangers had the best record in hockey. They proved they were a top-tier team before that disappointing season. There is absolutely no comparison to be made between that caliber of team and last year's Ranger club, so there's little reason to think next year's club will "rebound." There's not much to "rebound" to.

Could Jagr himself rebound as Messier did? I suppose but it's worth remembering that Messier was 32/33 in the Cup year. Jagr will be 35/36 next season. He will find it toughr to rebound than the younger Messier did.

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02-25-2007, 05:54 PM
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mrhockey193195
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true, it is quite a stretch to compare this team to the rangers of the early 90s, and to compare Jagr to Messier, but I just found it interesting that there were some parallels with both.

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02-26-2007, 12:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrhockey193195 View Post
true, it is quite a stretch to compare this team to the rangers of the early 90s, and to compare Jagr to Messier, but I just found it interesting that there were some parallels with both.
I agree, it's not totally the same but the similarities are there.

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02-26-2007, 12:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dedalus View Post
The difference is that the 91-92 Rangers had the best record in hockey. They proved they were a top-tier team before that disappointing season. There is absolutely no comparison to be made between that caliber of team and last year's Ranger club, so there's little reason to think next year's club will "rebound." There's not much to "rebound" to.

Could Jagr himself rebound as Messier did? I suppose but it's worth remembering that Messier was 32/33 in the Cup year. Jagr will be 35/36 next season. He will find it toughr to rebound than the younger Messier did.
Those Rangers teams were also pretty much in the playoffs every season leading up to that. This team does not have that playoff history.

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02-26-2007, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by mrhockey193195 View Post

Will it happen again in 2007-08?
May be not, but thanks for posting, esp. if it is your own observation...
Men, if you superimpose Shanny over JJ you could get Mess.

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02-26-2007, 02:24 PM
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The real difference is...

last season should have an asteriks. With a season lost due to the lockout and with the turnover many teams experienced, and with so many players not playing a season, you really didn't get the true feel of the season until past the midway point, when players started to get their timing and legs back and when they got used to the new rules, etc. Hockey was essentially a restart. So basically we're talking about the Rangers from the beginning of January to today, which is a .500 team that's been inconsistent over that period, at best. So I'm not sure there's anything from which to 'rebound'. They can get better, of course, but it won't be because this was a good team last season and could play better.

And yes, Jagr can rebound, and he can get hurt. Injuries are part of the game and we understood when Jagr was acquired that there may be times in which he won't be 100%. That's when coaching and depth take charge, neither of which appear to be the Rangers' strongsuit.

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02-26-2007, 04:22 PM
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mrhockey193195
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Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
last season should have an asteriks. With a season lost due to the lockout and with the turnover many teams experienced, and with so many players not playing a season, you really didn't get the true feel of the season until past the midway point, when players started to get their timing and legs back and when they got used to the new rules, etc. Hockey was essentially a restart. So basically we're talking about the Rangers from the beginning of January to today, which is a .500 team that's been inconsistent over that period, at best. So I'm not sure there's anything from which to 'rebound'. They can get better, of course, but it won't be because this was a good team last season and could play better.

And yes, Jagr can rebound, and he can get hurt. Injuries are part of the game and we understood when Jagr was acquired that there may be times in which he won't be 100%. That's when coaching and depth take charge, neither of which appear to be the Rangers' strongsuit.

very true, good point.

The main thing I'm trying to get across is that, as of the end of the 1992-93, if many ranger fans had it the way they wanted, Messier wouldn't have been on the team to start the 94 season. Subsequently, the rangers probably would not have won the cup that year.

Maybe Jagr will lead this team to a cup next year, maybe he won't. I just don't think it's right for us to want him to be traded just yet. He had a phenominal season last year, and an injury-filled one this year. Let's give him more time before we call for another "purge".

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02-26-2007, 05:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrhockey193195 View Post
true, it is quite a stretch to compare this team to the rangers of the early 90s, and to compare Jagr to Messier, but I just found it interesting that there were some parallels with both.
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02-26-2007, 05:34 PM
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Ahh, the Cup team played hard and had heart throughout the lineup. This team is comprised of a couple grinders and a bunch of pansies. There's no hope for this team. Sell off our assets while they still have value and keep building for the future. Our kids work hard, play tough and mentally sound. They are the only reason for optimism in the next few years.

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02-26-2007, 07:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrhockey193195 View Post
Just something interesting I had been thinking about for a while now...

Messier came to NY in 1991-92, already regarded as a Superstar in the league, and had an MVP season in his first year. The Rangers were a huge hit in the regular season, but fell apart in the playoffs.

Jagr came to NY and in his first (full) season, 2005-06, had an MVP-caliber year. The Rangers were extremely good in the regular season, but absolutely fell apart in the first round of the post-season.

Then came 1992-93, which was a disaster for Messier (despite putting up respectable scoring numbers) and the Rangers. Rangers couldn't catch any breaks (i.e. Brian Leetch and the ankle injury), and missed the playoffs. Additionally, the team played their last few games at MSG having to hear boos and jeers from the Garden Faithful, and no one was given more of that treatment than Messier himself.

This year, 2006-07, has (so far) been a huge disappointment for the Rangers. Jagr hasn't been the dominant force he was a year prior, and despite still putting up very good offensive numbers (at least, very good in the assist department), he hasn't been able to lead this team to success. The Rangers, for all intents and purposes, have missed the playoffs. They haven't been able to catch any breaks this year, as just when they have started to play well, they are hit with major injuries (See Shanahan). And now the MSG crowd has started to let Jagr and co. hear it. People are even calling for Jagr, the captain, to be traded.

Coincidence?

We all know what happened in 1993-94.

Will it happen again in 2007-08?
Sadly, Jagr isn't anywhere near the type of player Messier was. Add to that the quality that was on that roster compared to this one and it is not even remotely close to a valid comparison.

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Old
02-26-2007, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by nyr2k2 View Post
Ahh, the Cup team played hard and had heart throughout the lineup. This team is comprised of a couple grinders and a bunch of pansies. There's no hope for this team. Sell off our assets while they still have value and keep building for the future. Our kids work hard, play tough and mentally sound. They are the only reason for optimism in the next few years.
True, but keep in mind that the real bulk of the grinders that were on the 94 cup team were aquired in the middle of that season (Noonan, Matteau, Anderson, MacTavish, Lidster, etc.)

Compared the the 1994 cup team, guys like Amonte, Weight, Marchant, Gartner, etc. were considered "soft" like our current team is now.

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02-26-2007, 08:14 PM
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Messier was was like an after-burner for the coach, he looked after things with the team. Play right or forget it. The early 90's Rangers were a team that scared other teams, they punished their opponents...when was the last time you could say that was the case?

They are going to be great in the next few years once they get the coaching thing figured out. They are going to be a force.

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02-26-2007, 08:39 PM
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Originally Posted by mrhockey193195 View Post
True, but keep in mind that the real bulk of the grinders that were on the 94 cup team were aquired in the middle of that season (Noonan, Matteau, Anderson, MacTavish, Lidster, etc.)

Compared the the 1994 cup team, guys like Amonte, Weight, Marchant, Gartner, etc. were considered "soft" like our current team is now.
No doubt, you're right. I'm just always been skeptical of this core group of players that we have, and I doubt that anything short of adding two All-Star defensemen and a legit top-line center would make us contenders. And unfortunately, the price we'd have to pay short term in regards to prospects and longterm in respect to the salary cap is just far too great. I'd rather ship out our desirable players (if there are any at this point) and keep stocking the farm.

I wish we hadn't extended Straka, as we could ask him if he'd be willing to take a trade for the stretch run and then re-sign in the offseason. That may be wishful thinking as no one can know for sure if he'd go for that, but ****, with his cap number and skills he fetch a king's ransom.

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02-26-2007, 09:21 PM
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Plenty of parallels to the teams from the 1997-98 through 2003-04 seasons too...

- Aging stars
- Heavy reliance on veterans
- Lack of scoring or defense or both
- Losing to low ranked teams when the pressure's on
- Holding on for just long enough to make it seem like they might turn it around only to fall short

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02-26-2007, 09:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Fish View Post
Plenty of parallels to the teams from the 1997-98 through 2003-04 seasons too...

- Aging stars
- Heavy reliance on veterans
- Lack of scoring or defense or both
- Losing to low ranked teams when the pressure's on
- Holding on for just long enough to make it seem like they might turn it around only to fall short
Right you are if things are like seasons past. Don't care how many times I have to say it, bring good talent in with a coach who can do something, and we'll be alright, more than alright.
Okay, example of a good coach?
Ken Hitchcock
Ted Nolan
Jim Schoenfeld
and there are others

This team has not had direction, so although some of the players look like dogs, and yes lets rid the team of Malik and Ruchanek, no way NYR would be in danger of missing the playoffs with a real coach. Come on, just admit it the coach is lost.

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