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NFL Discussion Thread V (Surgery for Eli; Jets sign CJ2K)

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04-03-2014, 11:01 AM
  #851
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Originally Posted by Ian View Post
To get elite talent in a position they desperately need it? Why not?

Watkins is by far the best WR available, and if a deal is there, they should do it. Jets drastically need skill players, and he's easily the top skill player available in the entire draft. If it costs a 3rd, so be it.

I wouldn't advocate for trading up for any other player.
6 is the absolute latest he'd go. We'd likely have to trade up with Cleveland to snag him. I don't think Oakland will trade down this year given their disaster of a trade down last year.

To go from 18 to 4, the chart suggests we'd have to give up a 2nd, a 3rd, and a 1st next year.

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04-03-2014, 11:02 AM
  #852
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Originally Posted by slipknottin View Post
I've watched 15 of his games, did not watch his proday. He's not a franchise QB. I would say he's a mid 2nd round pick. Potentially a good backup.
Again, guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

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04-03-2014, 11:20 AM
  #853
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Originally Posted by Matt4776 View Post
6 is the absolute latest he'd go. We'd likely have to trade up with Cleveland to snag him. I don't think Oakland will trade down this year given their disaster of a trade down last year.

To go from 18 to 4, the chart suggests we'd have to give up a 2nd, a 3rd, and a 1st next year.
Well that would be too much, I agree.

Depends a lot on what Cleveland does. If they don't take Watkins I think Evans will still be there at 8/9, where the Jets could reasonably move up.

It wouldn't be the most exciting pick, but I think I'd be happy with Gilbert or Dennard at 18 as well.

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Old
04-03-2014, 11:29 AM
  #854
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Well that would be too much, I agree.

Depends a lot on what Cleveland does. If they don't take Watkins I think Evans will still be there at 8/9, where the Jets could reasonably move up.

It wouldn't be the most exciting pick, but I think I'd be happy with Gilbert or Dennard at 18 as well.
I'd get on board for Gilbert at 18. If he's there at 18, I think he's the BPA. I doubt Dennard (who I think will be a good CB) will be the BPA in any scenario at 18.

If Clinton-Dix makes it to 18, I think we take a long look at him as well.

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04-03-2014, 11:31 AM
  #855
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I've watched 15 of his games, did not watch his proday. He's not a franchise QB. I would say he's a mid 2nd round pick. Potentially a good backup.
Lol. Really? I like how this only came out after his mediocre pro day.

Dude is a starting caliber QB for sure and a solid top 15 pick based on talent alone.

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Old
04-03-2014, 11:37 AM
  #856
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Originally Posted by Bird Law View Post
Lol. Really? I like how this only came out after his mediocre pro day.

Dude is a starting caliber QB for sure and a solid top 15 pick based on talent alone.
What came out after his proday is the media catching up to what scouts already knew.

He's not a franchise QB.

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04-03-2014, 12:05 PM
  #857
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slipknottin View Post
What came out after his proday is the media catching up to what scouts already knew.

He's not a franchise QB.
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

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04-03-2014, 12:07 PM
  #858
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Originally Posted by Bird Law View Post
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.
Yep. That's been the opinion of scouts probably the entire season.


It's quite possible a couple feel differently and think he is, but I would very much expect that those are very much the minority of teams. Though it only takes one

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04-03-2014, 12:12 PM
  #859
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slipknottin View Post
Yep. That's been the opinion of scouts probably the entire season.


It's quite possible a couple feel differently and think he is, but I would very much expect that those are very much the minority of teams. Though it only takes one
Except it hasn't and you're just blatantly making **** up at this point. But it's fun. So continue.

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04-03-2014, 12:14 PM
  #860
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At the end of the day, pro days don't effect stock all that much. As poor as Ebrons was, he's still a top 20 pick. As poor as Bridgewaters was, he's still the same.

I remember Bradford and Gabbert blowing people away at their respective pro days. Setting **** on fire. They've worked out real well, haven't they?

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04-03-2014, 12:18 PM
  #861
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Except it hasn't and you're just blatantly making **** up at this point. But it's fun. So continue.
Or I'm dead on and you are making things up.

The media is always behind scouts on things. This time of year the media is playing catchup. Why we ever took the medias evaluation of players as accurate is something you'll have to explain, because I sure don't.

It wouldn't surprise me one bit to have teddy fall to the 2nd round. That's where he should be drafted.

But will one team fall in love with him and take him earlier? Probably. It happens every year


Remember last year when the media kept telling us that Geno was a franchise guy who should go first overall? And it wasent until the combine/proday that the "rumors" of teams not really liking him started? Guess those rumors were total lies too

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04-03-2014, 12:21 PM
  #862
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slipknottin View Post
Or I'm dead on and you are making things up.

The media is always behind scouts on things. This time of year the media is playing catchup. Why we ever took the medias evaluation of players as accurate is something you'll have to explain, because I sure don't.

It wouldn't surprise me one bit to have teddy fall to the 2nd round. That's where he should be drafted.

But will one team fall in love with him and take him earlier? Probably. It happens every year
Since you're all knowing, please inform me why he's a second round prospect. I'd love to hear this.

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04-03-2014, 12:29 PM
  #863
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Guys, keep it civil. Enough bickering, if you want to discuss, just do it without the tones.

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04-03-2014, 12:30 PM
  #864
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Since you're all knowing, please inform me why he's a second round prospect. I'd love to hear this.
Durability + size concerns, lack of arm strength, low release point.

He is going to struggle in cold and wind. His pocket presence is only decent.

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04-03-2014, 01:17 PM
  #865
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First Giants offseason in a long time where they took proactive steps to improve instead of reactively mitigating losses and trying not to get significantly worse.

A lot of turnover, but the team is younger and more skilled. The Defensive Tackle and Tight End positions are my main concern.

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04-03-2014, 02:00 PM
  #866
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Originally Posted by slipknottin View Post
Durability + size concerns, lack of arm strength, low release point.

He is going to struggle in cold and wind. His pocket presence is only decent.
His "size" concerns are overblown. He's 6'3. He's a bit thin for his frame currently. Luckily for him, he's going to be going to a NFL training program. It's impossible for him to gain weight, right?

He's an extremely accurate QB with a very high football IQ. Those are the QBs that tend to succeed in this league.

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04-03-2014, 02:02 PM
  #867
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His "size" concerns are overblown. He's 6'3. He's a bit thin for his frame currently. Luckily for him, he's going to be going to a NFL training program. It's impossible for him to gain weight, right?

He's an extremely accurate QB with a very high football IQ. Those are the QBs that tend to succeed in this league.

He's not 6'3. He's 6021.

His frame is mostly filled out. He is not going to gain more than 5 or so pounds. Which puts him at a small 215 pounds.

Accurate and smart. Like Bradford.

With the same durability problems, less accuracy, and less arm strength.

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04-03-2014, 02:45 PM
  #868
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He also doesn't have a "lack of arm strength." His arm strength is above average. It's not amazing, but his accuracy in the short and medium range passes more than makes up for it. His accuracy is ABSURD.

Funnily enough, most QBs "struggle in the cold and wind." Eli Manning has always struggled with wind and he won two Super Bowls.

Peyton struggled as well and he's won one.

Oh, and size concerns are overblown. He lost weight due to an injury. Should have zero issue putting it back on.

I'd take Bortles over Bridgewater, but the "scouts" didn't have Bortles rated near the top at all until the end of the season. Funny how the whims of the "scouts" change quite often. Bortles was thought of as a 2nd or 3rd round pick most of the year.

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04-03-2014, 02:46 PM
  #869
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt4776 View Post
His "size" concerns are overblown. He's 6'3. He's a bit thin for his frame currently. Luckily for him, he's going to be going to a NFL training program. It's impossible for him to gain weight, right?

He's an extremely accurate QB with a very high football IQ. Those are the QBs that tend to succeed in this league.
Yep. All of this is correct.

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04-03-2014, 03:08 PM
  #870
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He also doesn't have a "lack of arm strength." His arm strength is above average. It's not amazing, but his accuracy in the short and medium range passes more than makes up for it. His accuracy is ABSURD.
His arm strength is exactly what I would describe as average. Comparable to Matty Ice. His accuracy is comparable to Bradford coming out.

Quote:
Funnily enough, most QBs "struggle in the cold and wind." Eli Manning has always struggled with wind and he won two Super Bowls.
Eli Manning has excellent arm strength. And he plays better in the cold and wind than most QBs.

Quote:
Peyton struggled as well and he's won one.
Peyton also played in a dome almost his entire career. Peyton back before his neck injury was in the argument for strongest arm in the league.

Quote:
Oh, and size concerns are overblown. He lost weight due to an injury. Should have zero issue putting it back on.
Sort of ironic, saying size concerns are overblown while also talking about an injury in the same sentence. Size and durability concerns are very real.

Quote:
I'd take Bortles over Bridgewater, but the "scouts" didn't have Bortles rated near the top at all until the end of the season. Funny how the whims of the "scouts" change quite often. Bortles was thought of as a 2nd or 3rd round pick most of the year.
The whims of scouts?

You let me know which scout was telling you that Bortles was a 2nd or 3rd round pick most of the year.

because there wasent any. The media had him ranked as a 2nd or 3rd round pick.

Whenever the media massively changes their opinions this time of year, its because they are catching up to what scouts already know.

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04-03-2014, 03:12 PM
  #871
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I would just like access to these top secret scouting reports that most of us do not have access to.

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04-03-2014, 03:13 PM
  #872
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I would just like access to these top secret scouting reports that most of us do not have access to.
Or you know, stop thinking that the media is professional scouts.

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04-03-2014, 03:16 PM
  #873
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Originally Posted by slipknottin View Post
Or you know, stop thinking that the media is professional scouts.
Or, you know, don't pretend that you have access to these scouts and scouting reports that neither of us do.

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04-03-2014, 03:18 PM
  #874
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Or, you know, don't pretend that you have access to these scouts and scouting reports that neither of us do.
I never said I did.

I said from the start that the media plays catchup this time of year to what scouts already know.

Unless you think either

A. the media is better at scouting than scouts
B. Scouts have been telling the media exactly what they think about every player all season
C. Scouts are confused and have no idea what they are doing all season


This is why I do my own evaluations, and whenever a scout is quoted, i listen.

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04-03-2014, 03:26 PM
  #875
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Originally Posted by slipknottin View Post
I never said I did.

I said from the start that the media plays catchup this time of year to what scouts already know.

Unless you think either

A. the media is better at scouting than scouts
B. Scouts have been telling the media exactly what they think about every player all season
C. Scouts are confused and have no idea what they are doing all season
Sure you did.

By saying that the media is always behind the scouts and the media is always wrong and that the scouts always knew Bortles was a top pick presupposes that you know what the scouts are saying and that you have some special insight into the scouting world.

You don't.

Scouts do change opinions quite often. You can look at the ISS and Redline in hockey for that if you want. There's normally quite a bit of movement over the course of a season. Scouts do not have static rankings for players. They will change their views on a player over the course of a year.

Funnily enough, Bortles improved quite a bit during the year. He took a big step forward as a legitimate NFL prospect. So it's absolutely logical to think that scouts' opinions of Bortles changed as he progressed. And he played even better on a national stage in his bowl game. Everything Bortles did over the course of the year raised his stock. He went from a horrendous conference to a below average one and his play actually improved quite a bit.

This isn't something crazy. Bortles has raised his stock in the eyes of everyone significantly. Scouts included.

But I'm sure there's some top secret report I am not privy to. This'll be my last post to you.

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