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David Desharnais Discussions - Part III - Montreal's Masterton nominee

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Old
04-05-2014, 08:07 AM
  #801
Winter Eclipse
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Originally Posted by Darth Joker View Post
Where did I say "he's the man!"?
Probably when you said he was the best Center on the team and better than Plekanec? AKA right here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Joker View Post
DD isn't a superstar playmaker, but he's the best this team has right now (given what Pleks and Eller's games are like currently, and given that Chucky still has a lot of development to do).
Especially interesting is where you compare Plekanec to Eller...

Quote:
Originally Posted by pepperMonkey View Post
As far as I can remember, he has several game winning or game tying goals...so I think it would be safe to say that DD can produce when the game is on the line.
He has 2 GWG, as per the NHL:

http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.h...ewName=summary

...it's interesting to note, in light of Darth Joker's comments, the two players who have 3 and 5 GWG as well...

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04-05-2014, 10:07 AM
  #802
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Originally Posted by Mario Lemieux fan 66 View Post
If Eller can't be at least a 3rd line winger on this team there is at least 50 % chance is trade during the summer. There is no way Bergevin will pay a 4th line center with no fighting ability 2.5 + millions.

Eller future is with another team unless he is great in the playoff (good two way hockey with no stupid penalty).

I am probably alone on this but, for the same salary (3 millions) i would re-sign Gionta for 1 or 2 year and trade Eller. Gionta is a better all-around player.
What makes you think Eller will ask for 2.5.3 mil/year?

With the season he is having he'll be lucky to get a QO.

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04-05-2014, 10:10 AM
  #803
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
You've defended DD since the beginning of the season, and you have criticized Eller after the EGG line was separated. You also keep completely ignoring the fact that when DD was playing like ****, he was given our two best wingers, offensive zone faceoffs and PP opportunity. As for Eller, since being separated from the EGG line, he's got none of that.
You keep harping about how Eller has sucked and only himself to blame. Great. Doesn't change the fact that when DD sucked he was given some serious help to bounce out of his funk. Eller has not once received the same type of help.
It's really not that difficult to admit. It's not a knock on DD at all.

That is PRECISELY what I said you keep doing, and why people say you are biased.
DD stepped it up after he was given the best two wingers, sheltered minutes, off. zone FOs and PP ice time. He didn't snap out of his funk while on the 4th or 3rd line, or by playing with Briere and Bourque, or Galchenyuk and Prust.
Ya, Eller is playing like crap. You don't have to repeat it 19439323 times. Everybody knows it. The discussion has more to do with how to get him out of it. And real solutions, not ''he needs to get his head out of his ass''. Nothing will change if he keeps being used the same.


They have used him as a winger on the 2nd line which everybody knew was going to fail.
On the 3rd and 4th line, he gets crappy wingers that haven't produced much with anybody this year.
Briere and Eller's difference in pts via their scoring ratio is 6pts over 75gp. Hardly something to mention.

DD did get some coddling, and he did a great job responding to it. I don't understand why you can't admit that. He was playing like crap, then was put in the best position to succeed. Eller has not received the same luxury. There is absolutely nothing wrong with admitting that, and it doesn't mean Eller is free of criticism. Jesus man.

Well then maybe you should step back and look at your own posts. Maybe you get sucked into doing the same thing because it certainly look like you're hung up on your own agenda.


You're obviously dillusional and completely wrapped up in your biased,k extreme views, so I won't bother trying to pound logic into your brain, it's a wate of time.

You win...Eller is great and Desharnais sucks.

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04-05-2014, 10:10 AM
  #804
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Originally Posted by Darth Joker View Post
People who make this argument are failing to take into account the role of chemistry. Some lines don't have a lone "driving force". Some lines become more than the sum of their parts based on their chemistry together.

The Lindros-Renberg-LeClair "Legion of Doom" line in the mid-to-late 90s is a good example of that. Each and every one of those guys was better together than they were apart, because they did a great job of complimenting one another. Lindros was clearly the best player on that line, but his numbers dipped slightly the first year after Renberg was traded to Tamba, while Lindros and LeClair both declined considerably after Lindros left Philly.

The DD-Patches-Vanek line may not be as menacing as the Legion of Doom was, but I think they may well be a similar case of excellent chemistry in action. I think Patches is a guy who plays his best and produces his best when he has a consistently pass-first playmaker centering him - And that simply doesn't describe either Eller or Pleks right now. Vanek alternates a fair bit between shooting and passing, so he makes an excellent final piece on the DD-Patches line as he gives an excellent "2nd option" for both DD and Patches (in DD's case, a 2nd option to pass to; in Patches case, a 2nd option to receive a pass from).

DD isn't a superstar playmaker, but he's the best this team has right now (given what Pleks and Eller's games are like currently, and given that Chucky still has a lot of development to do).
I think concussions had more to do with Lindros's decline than chemistry with Renberg.

It seems to me that Pacioretty generates a large portion of his offence off the rush. Someone like Plekanec would therefore bring out the best in Pacioretty since he's a much better transition player than Desharnais is.

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04-05-2014, 10:12 AM
  #805
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Originally Posted by Scriptor View Post
Why even argue? If the line does well, Desharnais is just riding the coat-tails of Pacioretty and Vanek who are doing everything by themselves and, if the line doesn't perform on any given night, it's obviously because Desharnais is holding back both Vanek and Pacioretty!

It's quite quaint and convenient, isn't it. If the line does well, it's because the wingers don't need Desharnais and would produce as much or more with a trained chimp as their C.

If the line doesn't do well, Desharnais is at fault.

On the nights they do so well, are we supposed to believe Vanek and Pacioretty have managed to dig in real deep to muster the energy to overcome the horrendous handicap that playing with Desharnais must be?

The pass to Pacioretty for his third goal was obviously a fluke. In fact, Pacioretty would've probably scored if he had shot from behind his own net on that one….



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04-05-2014, 10:13 AM
  #806
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Originally Posted by Qubax View Post
I'm sure this will surprised no one since this thread is about DD, but in his last 31 games Desharnais has 30 pts.

That's a very long time to remain a point per game in todays league.

By comparison only 12 of the Top 30 in league scoring have a points per game of 1.00 or higher.

I know a lot of DD's success has to do with Pacioretty (Subban) and in more recent weeks the addition of Vanek., BUT 31 games is a pretty good sample size to suggest that if the Habs continue into 2014-15 with a high octane offense DD has the opportunity to go 19-51-70 next year.
Here's the thing though, cold streaks happen to everyone. Gomez was a ppg player for us in the last 40ish games of his first season. Was that a sign that he was going to be a stud for us?

If playing well for 31 games is proof of exceptional talent, then what do we make of Eller's streak putting up 36pts in 45 games while only averaging 40 something seconds of PP time?

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04-05-2014, 10:20 AM
  #807
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This debate is over and is hovering around obsession for some people, DD has proven himself once again and is closing in on a second 60 point season despite having a horrid start to the year, in which almost every fan seemed to call for his benching and demotion or trade. (me included at times) He has responded with class and professionalism and has been a huge part of this teams success. Originally I know the debate began as a Eller vs. DD debate which seems to have faded. TBH Eller doesn't look comfortable on the ice with any teammates and I have to question his peak hockey IQ...he is still young but closing in of 4 or 5 solid seasons under his belt and still can't win a spot in top 6. More and more he looks like is more suited for bottom 6.

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04-05-2014, 10:21 AM
  #808
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Originally Posted by Winter Eclipse View Post
Probably when you said he was the best Center on the team and better than Plekanec?
I never said that. I said he's the best playmaker on the team. And he is, right now at least.

Pleks is a better overall player than DD, but DD is the better playmaker right now.

Also, where did I compare Pleks to Eller?

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04-05-2014, 10:40 AM
  #809
Mario Lemieux fan 66
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Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
What makes you think Eller will ask for 2.5.3 mil/year?

With the season he is having he'll be lucky to get a QO.
Base on his last season, potential and Prust salary ( Eller has way more point then him in the last 2 seasons), i can see Eller asking for at least 2.5 millions.

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Old
04-05-2014, 10:45 AM
  #810
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Originally Posted by Mario Lemieux fan 66 View Post
Base on his last season, potential and Prust salary ( Eller has way more point then him in the last 2 seasons), i can see Eller asking for at least 2.5 millions.
Nobody will give it to him, so who cares. He'll get 1 year 1.5 mil to prove 12-13 wasn't a fluke.

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Old
04-05-2014, 11:01 AM
  #811
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
Here's the thing though, cold streaks happen to everyone. Gomez was a ppg player for us in the last 40ish games of his first season. Was that a sign that he was going to be a stud for us?

If playing well for 31 games is proof of exceptional talent, then what do we make of Eller's streak putting up 36pts in 45 games while only averaging 40 something seconds of PP time?
Probably a statistical outlier. You won't find one guy in the last 20 years that scored 66 points ( 0.8 PPG pace) while averaging so little PP time. Doesn't mean that he doesn't have the potential to be an excellent and more consistent ES performer, but not as good as that sequence would indicate.

Also, Gomez's fall after that season is one of the most inexplicable thing I've seen. The guy didn't suffer an injury, continued playing with a guy he had success with before in Gionta and somehow everything he did that brought him success before stopped working. You don't see that happen very often, especially with a guy like Gomez that had such an extensive history of producing at a high level.

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04-05-2014, 11:32 AM
  #812
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winter Eclipse View Post

He has 2 GWG, as per the NHL:

http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.h...ewName=summary

...it's interesting to note, in light of Darth Joker's comments, the two players who have 3 and 5 GWG as well...
Ahh, you are quite correct. I must have jumbled in shootout goals. My mistake.

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04-05-2014, 11:40 AM
  #813
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
The funny thing is DD got on the scoreboard when the game was out of hand. DD registered a point when the score was 5-3 and Ottawa bailed out of the game. He was nowhere to be seen when the game was "playoff-like" and he had no space to operate. Lost a faceoff cleanly that led to a goal as well. But you look at the scoresheet and he got 2 points so he's the man!

Just hoping he can find a way to be productive when the games play out like the first 2 periods of tonight's game and DD has no space to operate.

You did not watch the game did'nt you??

All you ever do here is nick-pick on the stats and try to push your disgusting agenda.

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04-05-2014, 11:48 AM
  #814
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Originally Posted by Beatnik View Post
You did not watch the game did'nt you??

All you ever do here is nick-pick on the stats and try to push your disgusting agenda.
It's hockeyfan2k11 dude.

It's like blaming the sky for being blue.

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04-05-2014, 12:19 PM
  #815
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Yes I've noticed we disagree there.

I do fear DD's extreme lack of size will fail him, there are so many things a player that small just can't do in a physical game, opposition will exploit those weaknesses.

I guess I can agree that size has a greater impact on the wing (and defence). I think in the league C is the position where average player size is smallest. But there are limits, and anyway we often have four or five other little guys in the lineup so the problem runs deeper than dd.

Aside from "history," it is the Habs "size" that primarily defines our identity these days. You constantly hear this if you listen to opposing team's commentators. I'm pretty sure there's never been a smaller team going into the NHL playoffs it will be amazing if we somehow overcome it.

GHG!
I think your post is fair. Honestly, while size down the middle isn't as key to success as the wings and although small players can succeed too much of it can be a weakness. Personally, I'd have only Desharnais, Gionta and Gallagher up front at the very most. Anything more is a little overkill and it can be suggested that those 3 might be too much as well.

We'll have to see what happens but playoffs are always difficult, whether you're a big or small team. We'll just have to see what the roadblocks to our success are. Maybe it's lazy big wingers like Bourque. Maybe Price will be weak or our defense not in position. We'll see but DD, Gionta or whoever may also be at fault. Until then we say GHG and we hope for the best.

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04-05-2014, 12:26 PM
  #816
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With the wingers that are on your first line, zone possession becomes critical along with defensive responsibility up the middle. These two necessities are magnified in the playoffs when time and space disappears. Size does matter. Can you imagine a big defensively solid center with better vision and hands on that line with the ability to go to the boards in the offensive zone when necessary? I would make the switch in the last few games just to judge the chemistry.

In the playoffs you may want the ability to separate Vanek from Patch and DD, line wise. Let Vanek play on the second line for a couple of games so that he can watch those guys play close up.


Last edited by borisbadenough: 04-05-2014 at 12:31 PM.
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04-05-2014, 12:36 PM
  #817
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
Not really. Gionta brings a lot to the table and has been able to suceed in a way DD never has (and most likely never will) despite his size.
That doesn't change the fact Gionta gets a lot of ****.


Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
I guess you don't watch the games including the playoffs last year. What on earth does injury have to do with being physically neutralized?
Ah yes, the playoffs where we lost by a combined score of 20-9. The playoffs where DD was on the ice for only 1 of those 20 goals. The same playoffs where his winger played injured?

Granted, the playoffs where he made 1 point as well. Hard to produce when wingers are injured and not to mention guy clearly managed in the D zone. So do you prefer he assisted on 3-4 goals and was on the ice for 8?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
Size and physicality is a dynamic that does not seem to get any attention on this board. If DD was bigger and stronger he wouldn't be more talented, but he may be more effective.
Obviously but the degree many suggest is laughable.

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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
It's poor. It may be acceptable to you, but it's poor. We see it when he's up against anyone. Not a big deal since there are other Habs players who are poor in their own zone...especially in the dirty areas.
Re-read what you quoted. He's played vs top players and did alright.

The way I see it is 5 on 5 if DD's defensive game is poor, Lars' is acceptable-good. If DD's is acceptable, Lars is very good. You choose.

It's pretty interested how DD is sheltered but when he's on the road and cannot be he's actually got 32 points in 40 games and leads entire team in road points. Strange wouldn't you say?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
It is pretty doom and gloom when the team revolves around him. It's pretty doom and gloom when more gifted centermen are playing on the 3rd and 4th lines to benefit him. If the Habs lose in the 1st round and DD is a no-show again...yea, it will be doom and gloom. Pacioretty has to show up and so do Markov and a few other players. But DD especially needs to show up.
I believe your mind revolves around him, not the team. Our 3rd and 4th line centers are usually Eller and White. I'm not sure which you think is more talented. Not long ago in this post you suggested size and strength is a big advantage. If Eller is more talented and has this big advantage too why can't he manage vs 2nd lines?

It seems you're more upset Eller isn't playing top C because he's not as talented offensively. You need to move on. Eller is a very streaky player and he fooled a lot of you.

If someone says DD is a 1st line center I'd same the same. Don't let points fool you! He's a 2nd liner who is filling in the role to maximize team performance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
The truth is without Max, there is no DD. The proof is in the pudding. If we're going to treat DD and Max like the Sedins, then please lets move them both. That strategy never works.
Where's the proof? There's more evidence to suggest without a good winger there is no Eller than DD and max because they rarely ever play apart. Still, no one says it about Eller, so saying it about DD with a much smaller sample size is completely off.

You can't just assume something is a fact. You do that pretty often when it is indeed not a fact.

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04-05-2014, 12:39 PM
  #818
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Originally Posted by borisbadenough View Post
With the wingers that are on your first line, zone possession becomes critical along with defensive responsibility up the middle. These two necessities are magnified in the playoffs when time and space disappears. Size does matter. Can you imagine a big defensively solid center with better vision and hands on that line with the ability to go to the boards in the offensive zone when necessary? I would make the switch in the last few games just to judge the chemistry.

In the playoffs you may want the ability to separate Vanek from Patch and DD, line wise. Let Vanek play on the second line for a couple of games so that he can watch those guys play close up.
I mean, you're basically saying "can you imagine a better player in every aspect playing with them? It would be better". I doubt anyone would disagree but we have no such player so it's kind of a pointless debate. If you can get a true #1C with size, more skill, more hockey IQ and all that, by all means...Just don't say Eller just because he's got size.

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04-05-2014, 12:42 PM
  #819
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Originally Posted by Darth Joker View Post
I never said that. I said he's the best playmaker on the team. And he is, right now at least.

Pleks is a better overall player than DD, but DD is the better playmaker right now.

Also, where did I compare Pleks to Eller?
He is playing the semantics game against you. Dont bother.

Like an old saying........

"If you have the facts on your side, pound the facts. If you have the law on your side, pound the law. If you have neither on your side, pound the table."

Several are pounding the table on this thread and simply making noise.

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04-05-2014, 12:42 PM
  #820
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
I mean, you're basically saying "can you imagine a better player in every aspect playing with them? It would be better". I doubt anyone would disagree but we have no such player so it's kind of a pointless debate. If you can get a true #1C with size, more skill, more hockey IQ and all that, by all means...Just don't say Eller just because he's got size.
You already have the center that is the better fit. He is bigger and has better vision and hands .He needs to play with skill. It is not Eller.lol

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04-05-2014, 12:46 PM
  #821
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Originally Posted by Winter Eclipse View Post


Did I say they negated each other? No, I said they weren't the same argument. "Not being the same" doesn't automatically imply "negation"
So what does it matter then?

I know and knew both statements don't have the same meaning. I'm not sure what the problem is if they don't contradict each other?

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Originally Posted by Winter Eclipse View Post
You throw out words like "certainly" with absolutely no supporting statements. Reverse causality remains a distinct possibility, and since you've previously argued that anyone advocating RC should "go back to their CEGEP textbooks" perhaps you should try addressing RC with more than your hand-waves and condescending remarks?
LOL yeah talk about condescending. Thats exactly how I would describe your behavior in this thread. More on that later...

Theory : Desharnais can support good goal scoring wingers and help their production.
The main supporting argument : good goal scorers like Cole and Pacioretty have achieved their most productive sequences while playing with Desharnais.

This is particularly notable for Cole who not only had his best goal scoring season playing on Desharnais' wing but also managed the most shot on goal with 240. Cole has played 14 years in the NHL, scored 30 goals twice and shot more than 200 only three times, his 35g 240s season with Desharnais stands out. I do not put his success that season entirely on Desharnais' shoulders but that year he managed to top seasons were he had Erik Staal as center!

As for Pacioretty, he's been in the top10 for shots on goal (top 11 actually in 2011-12 since he was tied with Tavares) ever since he started playing with Desharnais. He wasn't known as a ''shoot first'' player before, I argue that Desharnais helped him use his scoring instincts by ''feeding'' him the puck all the time. Pacioretty has mentionned himself several times how he loves playing with Desharnais. Unless you have lived in a cave the last few years you have certainly read these quotes (which I'll dig out if you don't remember them). It goes beyond the typical ''oh yeah we have good chemistry''.

Quote:
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My point is that Plekanec and Eller aren't being played in a two-way capacity, they've been used far more heavily as defensive players. Is it really "more efficient" to play our BEST center in a reduced role?
I disagree that Plekanec's role is solely defensive, I think ''two-way'' is appropriate. He's excellent in that role however but not superior to Desharnais as a purely offensive player.

Now that you mention it I'll concede that Eller's role is more defensive but it varies quite a lot depending on his linemates. Therrien really needs to find stability on his second and third lines... Its also sad that Bourque happens to be such a useless player because he would really balance our offense if he could be a scoring threat.

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Originally Posted by Winter Eclipse View Post
So given that the only information about my location you have is NYC, you reached the conclusion that I had lived in or received post-secondary education in Montreal?

Makes sense.
To be fair, I couldn't care less about were you're from. I don't know why you make such a big deal about the whole thing, just think of Cegep as college, much like high school is secondary school for us. Yes, countries have different structures in education but in the end its pretty much the same and since this is the Montreal Canadiens board you can expect Quebec specific references...

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Originally Posted by Winter Eclipse View Post
Spare me your moral outrage.

In spite of your self-proclaimed prodigious knowledge of geography, I'm not the one who condescendingly suggested a return to "CEGEP textbooks" as a retort to an argument I then failed to actually address with anything beyond a "cause I say so". You don't like having your intelligence questioned? Something about people who live in glass houses...
I'm not nearly as outraged as you appear to be it seems

Its a hockey board, chill out. I'll save my essay writing with multiple sources, citations, graphs & 50 annotated pages for when I write a Masters thesis - please spare me having to do that on HFboards. I don't think everyone here has the desire to write or even read page long essays about hockey opinion. You probably don't have the whole day to spend here and neither do I.

Oh and simply answering ''Reverse causality'' wasn't condescending? Please! Wonder why I mentioned college textbooks? You acted like an 18 year old who just learnt those words at school in a lecture about argumentative fallacies. Don't take it wrong but its slightly annoying to see people going around here screaming ''STRAWMAN!!'' and ''APPEAL TO AUTHORITY!'' all the time. Its an internet discussion board after all. In my forum reading&writing time I've found people calling out fallacies typically have little to add. Not that there is much to add to this beaten to death discussion mind you...

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Originally Posted by Winter Eclipse View Post
It's a sufficient sample for what? That Desharnais has played near his entire career with good players? That he benefit from playing with top linemates?

Yeah, I agree.

Nothing in what you said establishes Desharnais as the independent variable.
The same argument could be used to claim that Pacioretty is only good because of Desharnais - After all Max was a pretty mediocre player before they were paired, some even called him a bust! Now of course we both know that statement would be false because we both see Pacioretty play and know he's big, strong, has a good shot, a good skillset and a head on his shoulders, which is why he has success. Hockey stats can only show so much, in the end we have to evaluate talent in a way that can't be 100% quantified.

Desharnais, for all the crap he gets for being small and weak is also a determined player that has gotten much better since he joined the league (on faceoffs, especially, it used to be a weakness and is now one of his strengths). His vision and passing in the offensive zone is perhaps the best on the team outside of Markov and maybe Subban, he thinks the game at another level and because of that plays well with other good players (and these players play well with him as a result). The reason he isn't a star is of course because of his size, and sadly he can't change that, but he fits a role.

Because that likely doesn't count as ''facts'' for you I'll throw some quick stats. If you want an exemple of Desharnais not playing with Pacioretty then look no further than his first NHL season.

Here are the most frequent lines Desharnais played with in 2010-11 :

22.51% EV 58 DESHARNAIS,DAVID - 57 POULIOT,BENOIT - 53 WHITE,RYAN
16.58% EV 52 DARCHE,MATHIEU - 58 DESHARNAIS,DAVID -57POULIOT,BENOIT
6.65% EV 58 DESHARNAIS,DAVID - 57 POULIOT,BENOIT - 94 PYATT,TOM
3.96% EV 58 DESHARNAIS,DAVID - 32 MOEN,TRAVIS - 57 POULIOT,BENOIT

You can consult the rest of the lines here

The ''best'' player he's been paired with any significant amount of time is, I suppose, Benoit Pouliot. Desharnais played with Pacioretty represents about 3% of his ice time (probably the odd shift or during line changes). That year Desharnais scored 22 points in 43 games as a rookie playing on the 4th line.

To put things in perspective, Desharnais that year had worse wingers than Eller currently has, less ice time and yet produced nearly as much (22pts vs 24) in 30 less games while being a rookie player. DD was 23yr old at the time. Eller is currently 24. Desharnais clawed his way to an NHL roster spot, all the way from the ECHL beating prejudice against both undrafted and small players, nothing was given to him. He plays with Pacioretty because he can and Max wants him as his center because he's comfortable with him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Winter Eclipse View Post
"200 NHL games and a full NHL season" vs. >10 games? Yeah, "not so big"
Hence why this is a minor argument compared with the Pacioretty&Cole samples, but it is reason enough to keep that line together. So far Vanek has played best with Desharnais&Pacioretty. Let me remind you we don't have 200 games to test lines before the playoffs. Plekanec and Vanek didn't seem to click and Galchenyuk&Eller haven't progressed enough this year to warrant a promotion to first line duty. Pacioretty-Desharnais-Vanek is on fire, they all see the ice at the same level and it would be unwise to break them up now.


Last edited by FlyingKostitsyn: 04-05-2014 at 01:09 PM.
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04-05-2014, 02:17 PM
  #822
Chris Cutter
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Random question: how many points would have Koivu gotten with Pacioretty and Vanek on his wing? PPG?

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04-05-2014, 02:39 PM
  #823
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If Vanek stays, DD can stay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Cutter View Post
Random question: how many points would have Koivu gotten with Pacioretty and Vanek on his wing? PPG?
PPG, in addition to being all kinds of clutch, killing penalties and going to the net without fear.

Koivu up against Chara? Zero ****s were ever given.

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04-05-2014, 02:43 PM
  #824
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
The same argument could be used to claim that Pacioretty is only good because of Desharnais - After all Max was a pretty mediocre player before they were paired, some even called him a bust! Now of course we both know that statement would be false because we both see Pacioretty play and know he's big, strong, has a good shot, a good skillset and a head on his shoulders, which is why he has success. Hockey stats can only show so much, in the end we have to evaluate talent in a way that can't be 100% quantified.
Except Max broke out being paired with Gomez not when he was put with Desharnais. He's been scoring at a pretty similar rate ever since.


Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
Because that likely doesn't count as ''facts'' for you I'll throw some quick stats. If you want an exemple of Desharnais not playing with Pacioretty then look no further than his first NHL season.

Here are the most frequent lines Desharnais played with in 2010-11 :

22.51% EV 58 DESHARNAIS,DAVID - 57 POULIOT,BENOIT - 53 WHITE,RYAN
16.58% EV 52 DARCHE,MATHIEU - 58 DESHARNAIS,DAVID -57POULIOT,BENOIT
6.65% EV 58 DESHARNAIS,DAVID - 57 POULIOT,BENOIT - 94 PYATT,TOM
3.96% EV 58 DESHARNAIS,DAVID - 32 MOEN,TRAVIS - 57 POULIOT,BENOIT

You can consult the rest of the lines here

The ''best'' player he's been paired with any significant amount of time is, I suppose, Benoit Pouliot. Desharnais played with Pacioretty represents about 3% of his ice time (probably the odd shift or during line changes). That year Desharnais scored 22 points in 43 games as a rookie playing on the 4th line.

To put things in perspective, Desharnais that year had worse wingers than Eller currently has, less ice time and yet produced nearly as much (22pts vs 24) in 30 less games while being a rookie player. DD was 23yr old at the time. Eller is currently 24. Desharnais clawed his way to an NHL roster spot, all the way from the ECHL beating prejudice against both undrafted and small players, nothing was given to him. He plays with Pacioretty because he can and Max wants him as his center because he's comfortable with him.
Desharnais only had 14 even strength points. He got a lot of his points on the PP where his most common linemates were Kostitsyn, Plekanec, Cammalleri & Gomez. In fact DD as a rookie got twice as much PP time a game as Eller does.

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04-05-2014, 02:43 PM
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I miss Saku

Him and Gallagher would have been a sick duo in my opinion.

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