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Old
04-05-2014, 10:30 AM
  #151
Monctonscout
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Originally Posted by FisherKing View Post
Frankly, this is my greatest fear, and would imo be Bergevin's biggest mistake BY FAR.

Extending Therrien would imho have repercussions for the team as a whole and the development of key young players (like Subban and Eller) for years to come.

It would be an absolutely DISASTROUS move by Bergevin.
What other choice does Bergevin have? He's exceeded expectations the last 2 years. you think he should fire him or have him play out the last year of a contract as a lame duck coach? Neither of those things make any sense at all.

The last 2 years young players collectively have made large strides forward, not sure where you get that MT would negatively impact them going forward. You can't argue that Pacioretty Price Subban Galchenyuk Gallagher Emelin have taken their games to a new level under him. Eller had BY FAR his best year under him last year.

What would make it a disastrous move? If things go wrong in 1-2 years there is nothing to say you can't fire a ciach even with 1-2 years left, it happens all the time in the NHL, Tortorella will be gone with 3-4 years left on his deal.

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04-05-2014, 10:35 AM
  #152
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Originally Posted by TennisMenace View Post
I'm sure you are right just based on results, he stays.

Let's face it, that is how people are objectively judged, so why would mt not be extended? I'm not a fan of his either, but how can you refute the results of last year and this year?
When you look at the team's record, yes he should be extended. The sad thing is, he's a bad coach. But he'll just have to be given more rope to hang himself. He's lucking into wins and he should get some credit for that I guess.

What worries me is the regression of so many young players and how pretty much everyone except for Max and DD are having bad years...some of them career lows. This is very very worrying.

But the results are there, no matter how bad the team plays...so when the results aren't there, what will be left of this team? That's what scares me. If PK stays, he will be ruined. Eller is ruined. Galchenyuk is a question mark. Beaulieu doesn't have enough "character"...Tinordi gets benched when he makes mistakes. Do we want this kind of coaching developing our young guys? I don't.

But I have always maintained that he should keep his job, even though I can't stand the sight of him and think he's a bad coach. Coaches are judged off of results. Team is 2nd in the conference, he's not going anywhere...rightfully so. Unfortunately.

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04-05-2014, 10:38 AM
  #153
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Originally Posted by thebinne4pres View Post
Here's a little thing for you:

Subban = 280 games in the NHL
Desharnais = 253 games in the NHL

Both are really good in the Offensively
Both are dangerous in their own zone

Funny that one is treated as a dumbass rookie that need to learn
And the other one is treated as a Veteran with no accountability.

They got the same NHL experience....

Therrien cut a slack to DD....rightly so, cause he compensate with his play in the O-zone......i think it's the same for Subban......
Well lets also see the other side of the coin...

One is making 3.5 million per year
The other is looking to make close to 9 million per year (More than any other defensemen in the NHL)

One is right now +10
The other is right now -3

Your top defenseman having trouble defensively is tougher to overlook than one of your offensive guys, even if everyone should be accountable equally. When a defenseman is looking to be the best paid in the league, he MUST prove night after night that he's consistently reliable defensively or else he might as well become a forward...

Just saying....


Last edited by djpass: 04-05-2014 at 10:54 AM.
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Old
04-05-2014, 10:40 AM
  #154
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Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
What other choice does Bergevin have? He's exceeded expectations the last 2 years. you think he should fire him or have him play out the last year of a contract as a lame duck coach? Neither of those things make any sense at all.

The last 2 years young players collectively have made large strides forward, not sure where you get that MT would negatively impact them going forward. You can't argue that Pacioretty Price Subban Galchenyuk Gallagher Emelin have taken their games to a new level under him. Eller had BY FAR his best year under him last year.

What would make it a disastrous move? If things go wrong in 1-2 years there is nothing to say you can't fire a ciach even with 1-2 years left, it happens all the time in the NHL, Tortorella will be gone with 3-4 years left on his deal.
What the hell are you talking about? MT has made Price better? Max too? What? I'll give you Gallagher. Emelin has been bad this year. Galchenyuk has taken a step back. So has Subban. Bourque has been bad. Briere not good. Gorges has struggled. Bouillion..crap. Gionta...regressing. What player has played BETTER under Therrien? DD. Wow! Jack Adams for this guy! Made Price a better goalie by telling him to stand on his head and face more shots!

MT should be extended based on the team's record. He doesn't deserve extension for player development or team strategy, or any of the other things coaches do. He sucks in those categories.

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04-05-2014, 10:42 AM
  #155
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Originally Posted by djpass View Post
Well lets also see the other side of the coin...

One is making 3.5 million per year
The other is looking to make close to 9 million per year (More than any other defensemen in the NHL)

One is right now +10
The other is right now -3

Your top defenseman having trouble defensively is tougher to overlook than one of your offensive guys, even if everone should be accountable equally. When you're a defenseman looking to be the best paid in the league, you MUST prove night after night that you're consistently reliable in that field or else might as well turn him into a forward...
Just saying....
one has Pacioretty and Vanek to bail him out
the other plays with Francis ****ign Bouillon

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04-05-2014, 10:42 AM
  #156
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Originally Posted by bigred50 View Post
Only 2 years ago the Habs were 28th overall in the league. Last year we were 4th in the East, and this year we're third best in the East - yup, fire the coach.

At what point does a coach get credit for success?
Getting plenty of it outside of this place, notably on TSN 690 last night. I wouldn't be surprised to hear his name mentioned for coach of the year. Not saying I would but hearing his name in the mix wouldn't be completely shocking either.

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04-05-2014, 10:43 AM
  #157
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Originally Posted by HatTricK09 View Post
Last year he was a great coach, I was 100% in the MT train.

This year he's been horrible. The team gets outplayed every game but somehow we still find ways to win.
He's been mishandling a lot of our players as well, PK to begin with.

Try and watch some of our games, you'll see how bad this team gets outplayed. This might work in the regular season but it won't last in the playoff.

At this point there's nothing more to do but laugh about it, it's so sad.
He's never been a great coach. Not now, not last year, not with the Pens and certainly not with the Habs his first go around. He must have had a hugely talented team when he won the Memorial Cup. A team even he couldn't ******** up.

Last year people were congratulating him on a puck possession style of play. We all saw the wheels fall off that plan when the play got physical (happens in PO hockey)
This year he has implimented some type of hybrid trap get rid of the puck system (as you can see i'm clearly confused as to what i am actually witnessing out there on any given night) coupled with a swarm or pinch down dzone coverage. No forecheck to speak of, no neutral zone speed, can't string 1 pass together let alone 2. As a matter of fact our best play this year has been the lob. Sloppy line changes, D unable to maintain an offensive zone posture when we do dump the puck in. Look up after line changes only to find our worst defensive pairing playing with our top line. Given the speed of our line-up we certainly have a right as fans to expect more varied play. The very worst part of this is he goes out of his way to make it clear to anyone who will listen that his players respond to his demands as coach. The fact that we sit 2nd in the division due to his brilliance. Give me a coach who is imprevisible. Give me a coach who knows how to matchup properly and how to leverage last change. Give me a coach who understands his players strengths and weaknesses and actually uses them to the teams advantage.
Give me a coach who knows that to stifle creativity is death. Finally give me a coach who is able to clearly define each player's role, each trio's role, and each unit of 5's role. So give me someone other than Therrien.

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04-05-2014, 10:44 AM
  #158
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Originally Posted by djpass View Post
Well lets also see the other side of the coin...

One is making 3.5 million per year
The other is looking to make close to 9 million per year (More than any other defensemen in the NHL)

One is right now +10
The other is right now -3

Your top defenseman having trouble defensively is tougher to overlook than one of your offensive guys, even if everone should be accountable equally. When you're a defenseman looking to be the best paid in the league, you MUST prove night after night that you're consistently reliable in that field or else might as well turn him into a forward...
Just saying....
PK is reliable defensively when playing in a legitimate defensive system with a partner who is NHL caliber.

Subban should not be paired with Bouillion. And as much as I like Tinordi, he shouldn't be paired with him either.

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04-05-2014, 10:46 AM
  #159
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Originally Posted by Habsawce View Post
one has Pacioretty and Vanek to bail him out
the other plays with Francis ****ign Bouillon
I'm not trying to be hard on P.K. on behalf of Desharnais...don't get me wrong.

One has to be impartial and see things for what they are.

Lets be serious here....Pacioretty and Vanek are not helping Desharnais in any special way on the defensive end.

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04-05-2014, 10:46 AM
  #160
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Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
What other choice does Bergevin have? He's exceeded expectations the last 2 years. you think he should fire him or have him play out the last year of a contract as a lame duck coach? Neither of those things make any sense at all.

The last 2 years young players collectively have made large strides forward, not sure where you get that MT would negatively impact them going forward. You can't argue that Pacioretty Price Subban Galchenyuk Gallagher Emelin have taken their games to a new level under him. Eller had BY FAR his best year under him last year.

What would make it a disastrous move? If things go wrong in 1-2 years there is nothing to say you can't fire a ciach even with 1-2 years left, it happens all the time in the NHL, Tortorella will be gone with 3-4 years left on his deal.
Pacioretti has improved - yes.

Price has his own coach who gets the credit for Price's improvement, not Therrien.

Subban is a mere shadow of his former self, and hardly even that.

I fail to see any marked improvement in Galchenyuk or Gallagher. At best, they have more or less stagnated.

Emelin just returned from being out for a year so not sure why Therrien gets much credit here.

So yes, I'm afraid I must take issue with your assertion (or at least inference) that these guys have progressed.

As for coaches being fired mid-term in their contract, yes, happens all the time. Doesn't mean it's wise or should be necessary. If Bergevin can't see the problems Therrien is creating with a lot of these players, then I will really start to wonder whether he's the right man for the job as well. We'll see...

I stand by my post above. Bergevin extending Therrien would be DISASTROUS imho.

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04-05-2014, 10:47 AM
  #161
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
PK is reliable defensively when playing in a legitimate defensive system with a partner who is NHL caliber.

Subban should not be paired with Bouillion. And as much as I like Tinordi, he shouldn't be paired with him either.
Who should be paired with Subban then?

With Gorges out you have to play a guy 20 minutes that probably shouldn't play 20 minutes.

Bouillon has played good hockey since being put back into the lineup after Gorges injury. People are so obsessed with hating him for being 5'8" and 38 years old that they can't look at him objectively.

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04-05-2014, 10:49 AM
  #162
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Originally Posted by FisherKing View Post
Pacioretti has improved - yes.

Price has his own coach who gets the credit for Price's improvement, not Therrien.

Subban is a mere shadow of his former self, and hardly even that.

I fail to see any marked improvement in Galchenyuk or Gallagher. At best, they have more or less stagnated.

Emelin just returned from being out for a year so not sure why Therrien gets much credit here.

So yes, I'm afraid I must take issue with your assertion (or at least inference) that these guys have progressed.

As for coaches being fired mid-term in their contract, yes, happens all the time. Doesn't mean it's wise or should be necessary. If Bergevin can't see the problems Therrien is creating with a lot of these players, then I will really start to wonder whether he's the right man for the job as well. We'll see...

I stand by my post above. Bergevin extending Therrien would be DISASTROUS imho.
If you don't see a huge leap forward from where Subban was 24 months ago, I'm not sure what you're watching, he wasn't a Norris d-man or a Team Canada guy then.

Gallagher and Galchenyuk both cracked the roster when nobody expected them to and surpassed expectations after that. Of course they deserve a lot of credit for it, but MT has put them in good situations to succeed. They were not even NHLers when Mt arrived and have made a smooth transition into the NHL.

Emelin made the progression from #5-6 to #3-4 last year. This year has been tougher mostly due to the injury and missed off season/camp/preseason.

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04-05-2014, 10:51 AM
  #163
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
PK is reliable defensively when playing in a legitimate defensive system with a partner who is NHL caliber.

Subban should not be paired with Bouillion. And as much as I like Tinordi, he shouldn't be paired with him either.
It's OK to request and earn 9 million per year, more than anyone else, but he also needs to be with a top D to help him defensively ? Is that the logic here ?

Most here keep *****ing about Desharnais needing Pacioretty to produce but now you're making a case for Subban absolutely needing a top D as being normal to be effective defensively....hmmmm.....

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04-05-2014, 10:51 AM
  #164
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Originally Posted by djpass View Post
Well lets also see the other side of the coin...

One is making 3.5 million per year
The other is looking to make close to 9 million per year (More than any other defensemen in the NHL)

One is right now +10
The other is right now -3

Your top defenseman having trouble defensively is tougher to overlook than one of your offensive guys, even if everone should be accountable equally. When you're a defenseman looking to be the best paid in the league, you MUST prove night after night that you're consistently reliable in that field or else might as well turn him into a forward...

Just saying....
One gets the organization's vote for Masterton trophy because he was only horrible for 19 games. One wins a Norris as best defenseman in the ****ing league and gets treated like a damn rookie.

Everyone knows Subban is at his best when he's being leaned on in every situation. He thrives when he has to shut down top lines. He's quite frankly great on the PK. He can carry a PP. He needs to be playing 25 minutes a game. Jacques Martin, one of the better Defensive tacticians in the league, identified this in a rookie and sophomore Subban. Yet this buffoon of a coach can't see it.

The thing is, when PK is placed in a low responsibility role, his play drops dramatically. When he plays against third liners, his play drops. When the coach believes he's a PP specialist and purely an OFD, his play drops.

These mind games better stop once playoffs start, or it'll be another quick playoff exit.

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04-05-2014, 10:56 AM
  #165
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One gets the organization's vote for Masterton trophy because he was only horrible for 19 games. One wins a Norris as best defenseman in the ****ing league and gets treated like a damn rookie.

Everyone knows Subban is at his best when he's being leaned on in every situation. He thrives when he has to shut down top lines. He's quite frankly great on the PK. He can carry a PP. He needs to be playing 25 minutes a game. Jacques Martin, one of the better Defensive tacticians in the league, identified this in a rookie and sophomore Subban. Yet this buffoon of a coach can't see it.

The thing is, when PK is placed in a low responsibility role, his play drops dramatically. When he plays against third liners, his play drops. When the coach believes he's a PP specialist and purely an OFD, his play drops.

These mind games better stop once playoffs start, or it'll be another quick playoff exit.
Well if a guy needs to always be put in specific situations to consistently shine, then it's not indicative of him being the best all-around defenseman in the league....because after all he's asking to be paid as the best.

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04-05-2014, 10:58 AM
  #166
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What the hell are you talking about? MT has made Price better? Max too? What? I'll give you Gallagher. Emelin has been bad this year. Galchenyuk has taken a step back. So has Subban. Bourque has been bad. Briere not good. Gorges has struggled. Bouillion..crap. Gionta...regressing. What player has played BETTER under Therrien? DD. Wow! Jack Adams for this guy! Made Price a better goalie by telling him to stand on his head and face more shots!

MT should be extended based on the team's record. He doesn't deserve extension for player development or team strategy, or any of the other things coaches do. He sucks in those categories.
Price has taken his game to a new level. Subban has taken his up 2-3 notches from 11-12. Pacioretty also.

So Therrien sucks at development yet most young players have made big strides under his watch...funny.

Emelin did also before his injury.

Galchenyuk was not even in the NHL when MT took over, he helped him transition to the NHL and used him in good situatuions to excel. Not sure where you see a regression there, the wrist injury impacted his season if anything.

I'm not a fan of how he used Briere, but he's sort of a square peg in a round hole on his roster.

Gionta is 35, any regression is based on his age and wear and tear not bad coaching.

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04-05-2014, 11:01 AM
  #167
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i didnt know bouillon was playing uner michel therrien when he won the memorial cup that might explain everything

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04-05-2014, 11:03 AM
  #168
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Who should be paired with Subban then?

With Gorges out you have to play a guy 20 minutes that probably shouldn't play 20 minutes.

Bouillon has played good hockey since being put back into the lineup after Gorges injury. People are so obsessed with hating him for being 5'8" and 38 years old that they can't look at him objectively.
If Gorges can play on Wednesday versus the Hawks, he'll be back with P.K. anyways.

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04-05-2014, 11:04 AM
  #169
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The divide is widening, the punishment is public, PK looks lost. If it comes down to Subban or Therrien sadly I think it's Therrien who will win in Montréal. It's maddening that this coach is coddling his dwarf while alienating his superstar.

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04-05-2014, 11:06 AM
  #170
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Well if a guy needs to always be put in specific situations to consistently shine, then it's not indicative of him being the best all-around defenseman in the league....because after all he's asking to be paid as the best.
Those specific situations happen to be situations that are most crucial to winning important hockey games. Just play him as your number 1 defenseman. Play him with a stable partner. And give him important minutes.

Then he will shine and the team will win by actually outplaying opponents.

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04-05-2014, 11:07 AM
  #171
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Originally Posted by FazChenyuk View Post
i didnt know bouillon was playing uner michel therrien when he won the memorial cup that might explain everything
MT was his coach for 3 years in the Q... It was engraved in his psyche in his early coaching days that Bouillon=Big Success.

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04-05-2014, 11:07 AM
  #172
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The divide is widening, the punishment is public, PK looks lost. If it comes down to Subban or Therrien sadly I think it's Therrien who will win in Montréal. It's maddening that this coach is coddling his dwarf while alienating his superstar.
The sad thing is it might take the perfect storm to get rid of him.
Leafs sneak in and take out Boston coupled with Habs losing to Bolts for example.

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04-05-2014, 11:11 AM
  #173
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Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
Price has taken his game to a new level. Subban has taken his up 2-3 notches from 11-12. Pacioretty also.

So Therrien sucks at development yet most young players have made big strides under his watch...funny.

Emelin did also before his injury.

Galchenyuk was not even in the NHL when MT took over, he helped him transition to the NHL and used him in good situatuions to excel. Not sure where you see a regression there, the wrist injury impacted his season if anything.

I'm not a fan of how he used Briere, but he's sort of a square peg in a round hole on his roster.

Gionta is 35, any regression is based on his age and wear and tear not bad coaching.
I respect your opinions moncton scout, even though I don't agree in this instance. I think we will just have to "agree to disagree" on this one. I'm not going to change your mind and you're not going to change mine.

Cheers.

Edit: Besides, we're both New Brunswickers. No point in starting a civil war over a difference in opinion.

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04-05-2014, 11:14 AM
  #174
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Those specific situations happen to be situations that are most crucial to winning important hockey games. Just play him as your number 1 defenseman. Play him with a stable partner. And give him important minutes.

Then he will shine and the team will win by actually outplaying opponents.
P.K. averages 24:43 minutes per game.
Duncan Keith averages 24:39 per game.

Does that make Joel Quenneville a bad coach because he doesn't average Keith 30 minutes per game ?

I think all this stuff is so exaggerated for nothing. P.K. just needs to show without a doubt that he can be consistently reliable in his zone, especially according to the score and time in the game.

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04-05-2014, 11:20 AM
  #175
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Everyone knows Subban is at his best when he's being leaned on in every situation. He thrives when he has to shut down top lines. He's quite frankly great on the PK. He can carry a PP. He needs to be playing 25 minutes a game. Jacques Martin, one of the better Defensive tacticians in the league, identified this in a rookie and sophomore Subban. Yet this buffoon of a coach can't see it.

P.K.’s average time :

2010-2011 = 22:16 / game
2011-2012 = 24:18 / game
2012-2013 = 23:14 / game
2013-2014 = 24:43 / game

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