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Subban's next contract

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Old
04-05-2014, 11:17 AM
  #176
FerrisRox
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
Markov can't do that anymore. He's slow and old.
If you don't think that Andrei Markov can lead a rush, you're the one who's slow.

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04-05-2014, 11:18 AM
  #177
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Originally Posted by JLP View Post
You may be right. He is being mentored by Francis Bouillon after all.

I also believe PK will get through this alright. I hope.
I agree, I think PK will get through this just fine. I'm not so sure about the TEAM though.

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04-05-2014, 11:23 AM
  #178
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Originally Posted by boynickname View Post
The only place you will ever hear PK is good at playing defence is here on the Montreal board.
i.e. from the people who actually watch him play regularly. Of course.
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PK is a offensive defenseman and anyone that truly watches the game knows this. PK is high risk and hopefully high rewards player....and always will be.
Again, it's like some of you slept through previous seasons. There have been reams of the advanced stats posts, displays of his defensive and penalty killing proficiency. I can't understand how anybody who has actually watched the team has missed all that.

I honestly don't think you or Doc could possibly have watched the team very closely the past 3-4 years, it's that much of a disconnect. I think it would actually be impossible to miss the defensive proficiency that Subban has previously shown.

Now, I _do_ understand how fans of other teams who watch TSN highlights and read internet websites and don't watch the team consistently can say that. The knocks on Subban are just what they're told. And they don't have the observational evidence to counter it. But for Habs fans... Well, I have theories about the internet connect to alternate universes to fall back on, I guess.

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04-05-2014, 11:24 AM
  #179
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Originally Posted by boynickname View Post
OKAY.....what ever your smoking I want sum.
The only place you will ever hear PK is good at playing defence is here on the Montreal board.
PK is a offensive defenseman and anyone that truly watches the game knows this. PK is high risk and hopefully high rewards player....and always will be.
PK is a lot more high risk on offense, with the puck than he is defensively.

Most offensive d-men are high risk with the puck, some more than others. PK isn't great defensively but but he is above average in terms of overall NHL.

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04-05-2014, 11:30 AM
  #180
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I agree with OP, except the statement "Subban is our best player" I think Subban may have a peak of becoming our best player some day but honestly at least two players have been more valuable to our team this season than Subban. Price and Markov. and Markov has done it while over coming serious injury that has attributed to a serious decline in his skating. In order for Subban to become elite he has to become considerably better defensively, I can't imagine that being a difficult transition in years to come. saying that I would personally not pay a player 8 million a year who has gaps in his game, Subban is a minus player on a team who has a positive goal differential and is fighting for 3rd place in the conference. The PP has also struggled this season. Hes great no doubt about it and will get better, but to give a guy long term and 8 million a season on the basis of, he will get better is ludicrous. Crosby is 8 million a season. The point is for that kind of money their has to be zero question marks and honestly if Subban doesn't take 7million or less, I hope Bergeron lets him walk.

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04-05-2014, 11:33 AM
  #181
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<------ Made my avatar before the game last night!
Let's see how it pans out tonite

Go to the Avatar Request thread and ask a 'shooper to redo it, though. Coloring and lettering look like crap. Some things are better left in others' hands. If you were a brain surgeon, would you operate on yourself?

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04-05-2014, 11:53 AM
  #182
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When I read some of the posts here it just blows my mind. Reminds me of the folks saying we should get rid of Max earlier this year and those who said we should dump Price when the team tanked last year.

Folks, you need perspective. This guy is arguably the best blueliner in the league. Period. Full stop. This guy is more complete than anyone else.

For you guys to sit there and not be able to see how good this guy is - is just... shocking. And if this guy does somehow get dealt, you will see how wrong you are. You remind me of the fans who screamed we should get rid of Roy (and there were many of them) just before he won his second cup here. The whole 'what have you done lately for me' mentality is a total joke.

I'm bookmarking this thread and I'm going to revisit it in another year or so and laugh my ass off at the ridiculous posts I'm reading here. Hell, I'm laughing at them now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MTL-rules View Post
Subban doesn't deserve 8mil a year. At most, he should get Letang's contract 7,5mil. If he wants more, let's start looking at possible trades...
Subban deserves a hell of a lot more than 8. Not only because he's well worth that contract but because we lowballed the **** out of him last time. You think he's the equivalent of Letang?

Seriously man... what is wrong with you?
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Originally Posted by MTL-rules View Post
3 way trade involving Edmonton and Nashville where we would get Weber would be great...
Why? Subban is 24 years old and already has better numbers on worse teams and has the potential to get much better than he's been. Last year he was easily the best in the league and he was even better at the start of this year... Its not his fault that our idiot coach is pairing him with Bouillion and Murray. Get a new coach and you'll get more bang for your buck.

Love Shea Weber and he does things that few other blueliners can. But he's four years older and Subban's still on the way up. He also took a contract that was much less than what he was worth last time to stay with us. Makes zero sense not to keep him.

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04-05-2014, 12:03 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by dutchy29 View Post
I agree with OP, except the statement "Subban is our best player" I think Subban may have a peak of becoming our best player some day but honestly at least two players have been more valuable to our team this season than Subban. Price and Markov. and Markov has done it while over coming serious injury that has attributed to a serious decline in his skating. In order for Subban to become elite he has to become considerably better defensively, I can't imagine that being a difficult transition in years to come. saying that I would personally not pay a player 8 million a year who has gaps in his game, Subban is a minus player on a team who has a positive goal differential and is fighting for 3rd place in the conference. The PP has also struggled this season. Hes great no doubt about it and will get better, but to give a guy long term and 8 million a season on the basis of, he will get better is ludicrous. Crosby is 8 million a season. The point is for that kind of money their has to be zero question marks and honestly if Subban doesn't take 7million or less, I hope Bergeron lets him walk.
Sorry but I have to disagree with the Markov comment. He's a valuable member of this team and I would sign him in the summer (even to a 3 year contract) but he has not been our 2nd best all around player.
Markov has often been brutal defensively over the last 2 seasons because of his lack of speed. Earlier this season, everyone (including our dumb*ss coach) said it was Markov making Subban better, but before they were paired together, people in the media were asking how the Canadiens could possibly think of bringing him back.

When Subban has been allowed to play to his instincts he has proven to be a very strong defensive player overall and a dominant one at times (and as an earlier post mentionned, the advanced stats support this claim).

Has he been inconsistent? Yeah sure, but so has Carey Price over the first 5 years of his career. Remember how bad he was against Ottawa in last year's playoffs?

And high scoring d-men who can play upwards of 25+ minutes a game in all situations (regardless of what his coaching staff thinks) are worth upwards of 7 million a year in this NHL just deal with it. Subban is not even allowed to join the rush or pinch in from the blue line into the slot area (like a Karlsson) and he still led his team in scoring until Vanek was put on Pacioretty's line 9 or so games ago.
He was second in scoring last year, and had the second highest +/- on the team.
Markov was a -9.

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04-05-2014, 12:05 PM
  #184
Lafleurs Guy
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Originally Posted by Papa_Bear_21 View Post
Sorry but I have to disagree with the Markov comment. He's a valuable member of this team and I would sign him in the summer (even to a 3 year contract) but he has not been our 2nd best all around player.
Markov has often been brutal defensively over the last 2 seasons because of his lack of speed. Earlier this season, everyone (including our dumb*ss coach) said it was Markov making Subban better, but before they were paired together, people in the media were asking how the Canadiens could possibly think of bringing him back.

When Subban has been allowed to play to his instincts he has proven to be a very strong defensive player overall and a dominant one at times (and as an earlier post mentionned, the advanced stats support this claim).

Has he been inconsistent? Yeah sure, but so has Carey Price over the first 5 years of his career. Remember how bad he was against Ottawa in last year's playoffs?

And high scoring d-men who can play upwards of 25+ minutes a game in all situations (regardless of what his coaching staff thinks) is worth upwards of 7 million a year in this NHL just deal with it. Subban is not even allowed to join the rush or pinch in from the blue line into the slot area (like a Karlsson) and he still led his team in scoring until Vanek was put on Pacioretty's line 9 or so games ago.
He was second in scoring last year, and had the second highest +/- on the team.
Markov was a -9.
Price has been head and shoulders the best. I'd say Max has been our 2nd best player this season.

Which is kind of sad because when this year started Subban was on fire. MT had to work really hard to get this guy's play to fall off. Ironically, it was the opposite for Max.

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04-05-2014, 12:17 PM
  #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Papa_Bear_21 View Post
Sorry but I have to disagree with the Markov comment. He's a valuable member of this team and I would sign him in the summer (even to a 3 year contract) but he has not been our 2nd best all around player.
Markov has often been brutal defensively over the last 2 seasons because of his lack of speed. Earlier this season, everyone (including our dumb*ss coach) said it was Markov making Subban better, but before they were paired together, people in the media were asking how the Canadiens could possibly think of bringing him back.

When Subban has been allowed to play to his instincts he has proven to be a very strong defensive player overall and a dominant one at times (and as an earlier post mentionned, the advanced stats support this claim).

Has he been inconsistent? Yeah sure, but so has Carey Price over the first 5 years of his career. Remember how bad he was against Ottawa in last year's playoffs?

And high scoring d-men who can play upwards of 25+ minutes a game in all situations (regardless of what his coaching staff thinks) are worth upwards of 7 million a year in this NHL just deal with it. Subban is not even allowed to join the rush or pinch in from the blue line into the slot area (like a Karlsson) and he still led his team in scoring until Vanek was put on Pacioretty's line 9 or so games ago.
He was second in scoring last year, and had the second highest +/- on the team.
Markov was a -9.
Ok some good points but last season Markov still wasn't 100% had missed considerable time previous season and I believe we have to give some time coming back. Look at the plus minus this season, not last. And sure 7million is great, my point is anything over that and long term, not comfortable with. I wouldn't hate it, I just think he still has much improving to do. I have a bit of biased towards Markov because of his age and health but his numbers are better and I feel he is more consistent. When hes beat its because of speed not talent or a gaff where with Subban when hes beat its because of the latter.

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04-05-2014, 12:20 PM
  #186
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We will have a problem soon. No way is the Habs, showing how they are using him now, thinks that Subban should be paid as much as he thinks he should be paid.

Why would you give a guy 7.5M$/8M$ when you keep benching him, can't play him on the PK etc.? And we pretty much know that this is what Subban sees himself having. So big clash there. Unless one camp goes totally against what they beleive in. And if that doesn't happen....we're going to lose Subban till Therrien is still coaching. There's nothing good happening with the way the situation is. Unless, PK buys the concept that he's not THAT good, and ask for something way less Markov numbers style. Which I don't see happening.

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04-05-2014, 12:24 PM
  #187
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MT might simply be resting Subban by playing him 14 minutes. Losing him to an injury when we clinched a playoffs spot would be a shame.

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04-05-2014, 12:27 PM
  #188
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Originally Posted by Aceekay View Post
Is he really overhyped though? I mean were constantly ******** on him for simple mistakes and things he can't control, and then he has you claiming he should only make 6.5 which is absolutely ludicrous, so no I don't think he is overhyped. I mean the dude has 53 points and has been our best defenseman by far this year and people are saying he's having a bad year, how funny.
Regarding Subban being overhyped in Montreal.

We already have an answer for that so the question does not even need to be asked. The Olympics.

PK Subban barely got any ice time at the Olympics and I truly believe that messed with his head. He is not playing at the same confidence level.

So the million(s) dollar question for Bergevin is this. Do you go all in with PK Subban or Thomas Vanek?

We pretty much can assume that Vanek does not stay here for less than $8.

So which player, Subban or Vanek, brings the most impact to the Montreal Canadiens..........right now? The past seasons are over and done with. Today and tomorrow is what matters to GMs.

Based on that, Vanek is without a doubt having more impact toward the Habs winning games.

PK probably has played himself out of a contract that exceeds $7 million per year.

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04-05-2014, 12:29 PM
  #189
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Regarding Subban being overhyped in Montreal.

We already have an answer for that so the question does not even need to be asked. The Olympics.

PK Subban barely got any ice time at the Olympics and I truly believe that messed with his head. He is not playing at the same confidence level.

So the million(s) dollar question for Bergevin is this. Do you go all in with PK Subban or Thomas Vanek?

We pretty much can assume that Vanek does not stay here for less than $8.

So which player, Subban or Vanek, brings the most impact to the Montreal Canadiens..........right now?
The past seasons are over and done with. Today and tomorrow is what matters to GMs.

Based on that, Vanek is without a doubt having more impact toward the Habs winning games.

PK probably has played himself out of a contract that exceeds $7 million per year.
Subban without a shred of a doubt. And he's 24 years old.

Dude, you need to stop posting this crap.

Even if he's not playing at his best, without Subban we are a lottery team. This team cannot afford to lose him.

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04-05-2014, 12:39 PM
  #190
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
When I read some of the posts here it just blows my mind. Reminds me of the folks saying we should get rid of Max earlier this year and those who said we should dump Price when the team tanked last year.

Folks, you need perspective. This guy is arguably the best blueliner in the league. Period. Full stop. This guy is more complete than anyone else.

For you guys to sit there and not be able to see how good this guy is - is just... shocking. And if this guy does somehow get dealt, you will see how wrong you are. You remind me of the fans who screamed we should get rid of Roy (and there were many of them) just before he won his second cup here. The whole 'what have you done lately for me' mentality is a total joke.

I'm bookmarking this thread and I'm going to revisit it in another year or so and laugh my ass off at the ridiculous posts I'm reading here. Hell, I'm laughing at them now.


Subban deserves a hell of a lot more than 8. Not only because he's well worth that contract but because we lowballed the **** out of him last time. You think he's the equivalent of Letang?

Seriously man... what is wrong with you?

Why? Subban is 24 years old and already has better numbers on worse teams and has the potential to get much better than he's been. Last year he was easily the best in the league and he was even better at the start of this year... Its not his fault that our idiot coach is pairing him with Bouillion and Murray. Get a new coach and you'll get more bang for your buck.

Love Shea Weber and he does things that few other blueliners can. But he's four years older and Subban's still on the way up. He also took a contract that was much less than what he was worth last time to stay with us. Makes zero sense not to keep him.
Great post, would read again.

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04-05-2014, 12:39 PM
  #191
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
And what happens to the PP without PK? Its funny Thay some people can only see PKs mistakes but no one else on the team. Markov makes a lot of mistakes. Emelin too. Gorges, Bouillion. Maybe the system is ****ing ****?

I know many fans only care about regular season production but PK has been our best dman in the playoffs by a long shot. Be careful what you wish for. This team is terrible on the back end without PK. None of out dmen besides beaulieu can even start a bloody rush for Pete's sake.
You just mentioned our PP and it is a double edged sword.

PK was the driving force of our PP early on when it was successful. His slapper was a weapon. Teams adjusted and our idiot coach still is focusing our PP on the points. And we continually turn the puck over with that strategy as we see the 3 on 2 advantage with our forwards down low being wasted.

A perfect example of that was Weaver last night. He does not have a slapper that's a weapon like Subban. However, he scored a goal because we had Vanek in the slot screening Anderson and Weaver's light shot found the back of the net.

Regarding DMan rushes, I would much prefer that we had a system where the team is able to pass the puck out of the zone instead of relying on a DMan to do that job. Subban and Markov both are at the top of the NHL with regard to turnovers. My friend, the ***** Karlsson on the Sens, is Number One on the list.

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04-05-2014, 12:43 PM
  #192
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
You just mentioned our PP and it is a double edged sword.

PK was the driving force of our PP early on when it was successful. His slapper was a weapon. Teams adjusted and our idiot coach still is focusing our PP on the points. And we continually turn the puck over with that strategy as we see the 3 on 2 advantage with our forwards down low being wasted.

A perfect example of that was Weaver last night. He does not have a slapper that's a weapon like Subban. However, he scored a goal because we had Vanek in the slot screening Anderson and Weaver's light shot found the back of the net.

Regarding DMan rushes, I would much prefer that we had a system where the team is able to pass the puck out of the zone instead of relying on a DMan to do that job. Subban and Markov both are at the top of the NHL with regard to turnovers. My friend, the ***** Karlsson on the Sens, is Number One on the list.
Our PP should be the best in the league. Unfortunately our coach has no clue what he's doing.

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04-05-2014, 12:48 PM
  #193
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
You just mentioned our PP and it is a double edged sword.

PK was the driving force of our PP early on when it was successful. His slapper was a weapon. Teams adjusted and our idiot coach still is focusing our PP on the points. And we continually turn the puck over with that strategy as we see the 3 on 2 advantage with our forwards down low being wasted.

A perfect example of that was Weaver last night. He does not have a slapper that's a weapon like Subban. However, he scored a goal because we had Vanek in the slot screening Anderson and Weaver's light shot found the back of the net.

Regarding DMan rushes, I would much prefer that we had a system where the team is able to pass the puck out of the zone instead of relying on a DMan to do that job. Subban and Markov both are at the top of the NHL with regard to turnovers. My friend, the ***** Karlsson on the Sens, is Number One on the list.
No the problem is that PK doesn't shoot enough. Remember when it was one-timer after one-timer? Now he never does that and the PP suffers. The strategy was working even though the opponent were putting so much pressure on our D.

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04-05-2014, 12:50 PM
  #194
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Subban without a shred of a doubt. And he's 24 years old.

Dude, you need to stop posting this crap.

Even if he's not playing at his best, without Subban we are a lottery team. This team cannot afford to lose him.
Why do you tell me to stop "posting this crap".

Want to compare production?

Since Vanek started playing for the Habs, he has 14 points (6 goals) in 14 games and is a + 7.

In that same span of 14 games, PK has 10 points (Zero goals) and is a - 9.

And Vanek has to play with DD.

Open your eyes and use them instead of your emotions. Vanek is bringing a hell of a lot more for the Habs RIGHT NOW than PK is.

And before you get too upset, I do not want the Habs to get rid of Subban. All I am saying is that Vanek needs to be the one who gets the biggest contract. The Habs need to have a dominant offensive line moving forward......something that we have not seen in a long, long time.

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04-05-2014, 12:53 PM
  #195
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He's got to learn to play with his head more and less with his body. He doesn't think the game at an elite level yet and I dont know if he ever will. He's great at playing 100 miles per hour with all kinds of emotion and intensity but sometimes you gotta slow it down and use your head. He still plays the same way when we're up by 2 goals as when we're down by 2 goals. That's not a reason to trade him, he's still the best we got and we need him to win a cup one day, but I also would not make him the highest paid defenseman in the league.

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04-05-2014, 12:54 PM
  #196
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Why do you tell me to stop "posting this crap".

Want to compare production?

Since Vanek started playing for the Habs, he has 14 points (6 goals) in 14 games and is a + 7.

In that same span of 14 games, PK has 10 points (Zero goals) and is a - 9.

And Vanek has to play with DD.

Open your eyes and use them instead of your emotions. Vanek is bringing a hell of a lot more for the Habs RIGHT NOW than PK is.

And before you get too upset, I do not want the Habs to get rid of Subban. All I am saying is that Vanek needs to be the one who gets the biggest contract. The Habs need to have a dominant offensive line moving forward......something that we have not seen in a long, long time.
Yeah right... let's compare production and ignore context. And let's focus on 14 games instead of the past few years. And let's compare points between a blueliner and a forward and ignore the defensive side of the equation while we're at it?

How about we compare the production from when our bumbling coach had Vanek in a checking role? Does that make sense too?



We have a blueliner who for the past few YEARS has had some of the best defensive numbers in the game. And he's a guy who very few can match offensively. Add in the fact that this guy is only 24 years old... but you're going to sit there and argue that Vanek is better because of the past few games where he's been hot? Also factor in the fact that our D is thinner than Lipton's chicken soup and you think Vanek's more important? Come on!

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04-05-2014, 12:58 PM
  #197
PKarey Plekoretty
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Why do you tell me to stop "posting this crap".

Want to compare production?

Since Vanek started playing for the Habs, he has 14 points (6 goals) in 14 games and is a + 7.

In that same span of 14 games, PK has 10 points (Zero goals) and is a - 9.

And Vanek has to play with DD.

Open your eyes and use them instead of your emotions. Vanek is bringing a hell of a lot more for the Habs RIGHT NOW than PK is.

And before you get too upset, I do not want the Habs to get rid of Subban. All I am saying is that Vanek needs to be the one who gets the biggest contract. The Habs need to have a dominant offensive line moving forward......something that we have not seen in a long, long time.
To be fair, Subban has to play with Bouillon haha

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04-05-2014, 01:05 PM
  #198
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No the problem is that PK doesn't shoot enough. Remember when it was one-timer after one-timer? Now he never does that and the PP suffers. The strategy was working even though the opponent were putting so much pressure on our D.
Cant disagree more.

Almost every team now sends two forwards out toward our two points and applies tight pressure and closes the gap. Our entire focus on the PP is to get the puck back to the points. DD's turnover against Tampa Bay was because he gained the line and fed the puck back to the point which happened to have a Bolts player there. Chucky had a horrible giveaway last night with open ice in front of him as he..........tried to get the puck back to the point.

Subban's lanes have closed. So have Markov's. That's why PK is not scoring as many goals on the PP as he did at the beginning of the season.

But that is not PK's fault that the PP is suffering. Is is Coach Therrien's inability to try using the forwards more in an effort to reopen the lanes for our point shot.

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04-05-2014, 01:08 PM
  #199
SouthernHab
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Yeah right... let's compare production and ignore context. And let's focus on 14 games instead of the past few years. And let's compare points between a blueliner and a forward and ignore the defensive side of the equation while we're at it?

How about we compare the production from when our bumbling coach had Vanek in a checking role? Does that make sense too?

Seriously man... you want to focus on one month or two weeks or whatever? GTFO with this crap.

We have a blueliner who for the past few YEARS has had some of the best defensive numbers in the game. And he's a guy who very few can match offensively. Add in the fact that this guy is only 24 years old... but you're going to sit there and argue that Vanek is better because of the past few games where he's been hot? Also factor in the fact that our D is thinner than Lipton's chicken soup and you think Vanek's more important? Come on!

Just stop man. You are embarrassing yourself.
Uh. I have to use 14 games because Vanek has been in Montreal for 14 games.

Please read this once again since you miss it every time I post it.....


I DO NOT WANT THE HABS TO TRADE OR GET RID OF PK SUBBAN BECAUSE HE IS A VERY VALUABLE DEFENSEMAN FOR THE HABS.

Got it now? I hope so because its frustrating discussing this topic with you when you seem to constantly take the approach that I want Subban gone.

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04-05-2014, 01:12 PM
  #200
Adriatic
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Uh. I have to use 14 games because Vanek has been in Montreal for 14 games.

Please read this once again since you miss it every time I post it.....


I DO NOT WANT THE HABS TO TRADE OR GET RID OF PK SUBBAN BECAUSE HE IS A VERY VALUABLE DEFENSEMAN FOR THE HABS.

Got it now? I hope so because its frustrating discussing this topic with you when you seem to constantly take the approach that I want Subban gone.
Don't you know by now it's impossible to criticize Subban on this board without 1-wanting him gone or 2-being racist. Pick your poison!

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