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Subban's next contract

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Old
04-05-2014, 12:13 PM
  #201
Lafleurs Guy
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Uh. I have to use 14 games because Vanek has been in Montreal for 14 games.
So we can only compare the 14 games? We ignore the Norris trophies and we ignore Vanek's years with Buffalo? We can't compare these guys at all because they haven't been on the same team? And we have to decide who's more valuable based only on these games...

You are being ridiculous.
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Please read this once again since you miss it every time I post it.....


I DO NOT WANT THE HABS TO TRADE OR GET RID OF PK SUBBAN BECAUSE HE IS A VERY VALUABLE DEFENSEMAN FOR THE HABS.

Got it now? I hope so because its frustrating discussing this topic with you when you seem to constantly take the approach that I want Subban gone.
Where did I say you did?

I'm not attacking you on some strawman. I'm attacking you based on the arguments that you continue to repeat. You continue to say that Vanek is more important to us going forward than Subban. That's not close to the case and that's what you are being challenged on.

ZERO way Vanek is more important to us than Subban is. Now or going forward. I love Vanek and like you, I hope we keep him and Subban. But if its a choice between them? Its not ****ing close.

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04-05-2014, 12:27 PM
  #202
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Originally Posted by Doc McKenna View Post
Thats because you forget why some guys were handed huge contracts and failed to live up to them. Gomez, Komisarik, Lapointe, Redden, Kaberle etc.

Think for just one minute, brisebois, and his wasnt during the cap era and people *****ed about 4 or 4.5 million. Do you think if subban plas the way he has for a good chunk of the year that 8+ million won't get literally booed out of town? To make matters worse, the habs would have to eat half the contract and take on a second teir player to move him with other GMs knowing they would fleece us. If he get 6.5-7 thats lots and its movable if either party wants out. Remember this is also about protecting the player.



While this latter part is a very noble intention, I can't imagine it being a remote part of a new contract negotiation.

"Sign with us, PK -- and here's the kicker… Take less money than you might be able to get elsewhere. You see, if you don't play as well as you can, it'll be easier to trade you -- No, wait, don't walk out the door -- It goes both ways. If you suck and the fans want to crucify you, don't want to stay and demand a trade, it'll just be easier to move you to a team you might like…. GO HABS GO! You know Montreal is where you want to be. Right, PK?"

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04-05-2014, 12:28 PM
  #203
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Benching PK is so old school and such a bad communication method.

Therrien's treatment of PK is like kicking a dog after every mistake. The dog will come back trying harder to please but eventually he turns on his master.

When dog #76 turns Therrien will be out of coaching permanently.

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04-05-2014, 12:34 PM
  #204
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
So we can only compare the 14 games? We ignore the Norris trophies and we ignore Vanek's years with Buffalo? We can't compare these guys at all because they haven't been on the same team? And we have to decide who's more valuable based only on these games...

You are being ridiculous.

Where did I say you did?

I'm not attacking you on some strawman. I'm attacking you based on the arguments that you continue to repeat. You continue to say that Vanek is more important to us going forward than Subban. That's not close to the case and that's what you are being challenged on.

ZERO way Vanek is more important to us than Subban is. Now or going forward. I love Vanek and like you, I hope we keep him and Subban. But if its a choice between them? Its not ****ing close.
We will continue to disagree.

The Habs had Subban during his prime Norris Trophy season. 1st Round Exit. We did not have Vanek and we had very little scoring against Ottawa.

This team sorely needs the offensive punch that Vanek now provides. And Vanek should be Priority # 1 for Bergevin. Subban can be Priority # 1A (if that might make you feel better).

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04-05-2014, 01:10 PM
  #205
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Originally Posted by SB164 View Post
I remember when Subban more or less outplayed Chara both defensively and offensively a few years back in the playoffs in that seven game series versus Boston. I'm not gonna fall for the "What have you done for me lately?" line of thinking that HF is so fond of.

Also, Adriatic has always had an axe to grind when it comes to Subban. I wouldn't take anything he says too seriously.
I'm also amazed at the selective nature of posters' memory. The problem with Subban ISN'T that he's a defensive sieve. The problem is that he ALLOWS himself to be an offensive sieve too often.

In the Halak playoff series, a young PK was awesome defensively and much less of a ham, offensively, than he sometimes becomes. Back then, in the O-zone, he found a way to get the puck on net and create offensive chances during the playoffs, often with the wrist shot rather than the snapshot.

It didn't reduce the level of effectiveness offensively but, surely helped prevent unexpected and costly turnovers.

Even this season, there are three or four games, even, where Subban took control of the game and was a big part of the win, both offensively and defensively -- At the same time! He inspired his team to win and wasn't a cause of concern as a scapegoat for a potential loss!

The most frustrating part about Subban's play is that he has already shown us the high end level he can play at, both offensively and defensively, at the same time, games where he is a dominant force offensively without taking high risk, low reward chances to be dominant. In those games, he's also a force, defensively.

There's no reason Subban can't play like this more consistently. It's not like he's riding up a learning curve where he hasn't reached that level yet and might in the future, with nobody knowing for sure if he will.

There seems to be a switch in his head that needs to be flicked to a certain position for that to happen and, ultimately, it's up to Subban to make that happen. I'm sure there's enough people centred around the team that are explaining this to him, over and over again….

Let's hope he takes these playoffs as the right time to show he understands this. That'll confirm the status of his next contract along the way.

I hope the best for Subban because, at the same time, it will be the best for THE TEAM!

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Old
04-05-2014, 01:39 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
When I read some of the posts here it just blows my mind. Reminds me of the folks saying we should get rid of Max earlier this year and those who said we should dump Price when the team tanked last year.

Folks, you need perspective. This guy is arguably the best blueliner in the league. Period. Full stop. This guy is more complete than anyone else.

For you guys to sit there and not be able to see how good this guy is - is just... shocking. And if this guy does somehow get dealt, you will see how wrong you are. You remind me of the fans who screamed we should get rid of Roy (and there were many of them) just before he won his second cup here. The whole 'what have you done lately for me' mentality is a total joke.

I'm bookmarking this thread and I'm going to revisit it in another year or so and laugh my ass off at the ridiculous posts I'm reading here. Hell, I'm laughing at them now.


Subban deserves a hell of a lot more than 8. Not only because he's well worth that contract but because we lowballed the **** out of him last time. You think he's the equivalent of Letang?

Seriously man... what is wrong with you?

Why? Subban is 24 years old and already has better numbers on worse teams and has the potential to get much better than he's been. Last year he was easily the best in the league and he was even better at the start of this year... Its not his fault that our idiot coach is pairing him with Bouillion and Murray. Get a new coach and you'll get more bang for your buck.

Love Shea Weber and he does things that few other blueliners can. But he's four years older and Subban's still on the way up. He also took a contract that was much less than what he was worth last time to stay with us. Makes zero sense not to keep him.
Please, go ahead bookmark it...

I, unlike many posters here, am not afraid to say I was wrong... and unlike other posters I can be critical of players because I'm not in love with any of them.

Subban is arguably the most talented Defenceman in the league, but you're mistaking talent with results.

Subby-doo is exciting and when he's on, so important and a real game changer. But elite players don't get benched, don't make mental mistakes over and over again... and don't bring the discriminatory card about his use... he had a very poor season, yet he's still top in the league in offensive categories which tells a lot about his skills.

But, he's not playing up to his talent and that's why he doesn't deserve to be the most paid defenceman (espacially that he isn't UFA). Leave your rose-colored glasses home and be a little more critical for the greater good of the team. We just can't commit to that type of deal (8mil+) for a player who plays when he decides to... like Ovechkin.

As for Weber... Why ? Because he's better and signed to a 7,8mil cap hit deal... that's why.

... oh and for future references : elite player make their teammates better. Markov does... don't play the "Bouillon card" espacially that's he's been paired a lot more with Georges and Markov than Bouillon.


Last edited by MTL-rules: 04-05-2014 at 01:44 PM.
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Old
04-05-2014, 01:55 PM
  #207
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I remember when Subban was saying his goal was to be the best he could be... the best in the world.
Now he has the chance to play for a team that will help him achieve his goals and will want to pay him the way he should get paid... THIS SUMMER!
There's no way rotting and stagnating in Montreal is ideal for him, and if the situations is getting worse, please don't blame Subban. There's a guy upstairs that needs to take care of all of this.

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04-05-2014, 02:03 PM
  #208
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Originally Posted by Bloumeister View Post
Let's see how it pans out tonite

Go to the Avatar Request thread and ask a 'shooper to redo it, though. Coloring and lettering look like crap. Some things are better left in others' hands. If you were a brain surgeon, would you operate on yourself?
Yes, I know, I worked with gimp and it's impossible to get the same result it seems. I might try a few things. I might go with a completely different tag and picture too. It was just a try.

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04-05-2014, 02:09 PM
  #209
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Originally Posted by MTL-rules View Post
Please, go ahead bookmark it...

I, unlike many posters here, am not afraid to say I was wrong... and unlike other posters I can be critical of players because I'm not in love with any of them.

Subban is arguably the most talented Defenceman in the league, but you're mistaking talent with results.

Subby-doo is exciting and when he's on, so important and a real game changer. But elite players don't get benched, don't make mental mistakes over and over again... and don't bring the discriminatory card about his use... he had a very poor season, yet he's still top in the league in offensive categories which tells a lot about his skills.

But, he's not playing up to his talent and that's why he doesn't deserve to be the most paid defenceman (espacially that he isn't UFA). Leave your rose-colored glasses home and be a little more critical for the greater good of the team. We just can't commit to that type of deal (8mil+) for a player who plays when he decides to... like Ovechkin.

As for Weber... Why ? Because he's better and signed to a 7,8mil cap hit deal... that's why.

... oh and for future references : elite player make their teammates better. Markov does... don't play the "Bouillon card" espacially that's he's been paired a lot more with Georges and Markov than Bouillon.
so much about this post is flat out wrong...

"elite players don't get benched"
A- Not true
B- Subban regularly gets benched for mistakes FAR less costly to the team than mistakes made by several other, lesser, players... who face no consequences.
His benching is a reflection of MT's biased approach to dealing with him than anything else. If anything, the professional & mature way PK has responded to this unfair treatment is further reflection of why he IS worth the massive payday, as opposed to the opposite.

"elite players don't make mental mistakes"

That statement is pure fail. If anything elite players are elite precisely because of their high tolerance for dealing with mistakes & continuing to push at a level that inevitably causes mistakes... players who are too scared & too weak minded to have the balls to play on the edge of their talent, do not make it to the 'elite" level.


and then to insinuate that Subban doesn't make his teammates better?

are you serious?

Gorges owes his long-term pay day to the positive impact playing with Subban had on his game. Gill got himself a new contract (and actually got us trade return at the deadline prior to that) thanks largely to the impact of playing with Subban... it's not for nothing that once he went to Nashville, he barely lasted a season before retiring. His play had declined far more than was evident, thanks to how much playing with Subban helped hide that.

Bouillion is clearly a 7th dman, one step away from being out of the league... he is exposed far worse whenever he's on the ice without Subban.

It's amazing that you are actually watchinng the same games as I am, and yet see something so completely different.

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Old
04-05-2014, 02:18 PM
  #210
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Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
Therrien's treatment of PK is like kicking a dog after every mistake. The dog will come back trying harder to please but eventually he turns on his master.

When dog #76 turns Therrien will be out of coaching permanently.
My great fear is that this organization will succumb to its usual franco-political b.s., choose to believe Therrien's version of whatever in hell has gone down between he & PK this season, severely sour relations with PK, and ultimately run him out of town for a garbage return.

And that will be the day I will disown this franchise for good. PK Subban is the absolute best and most talented defenceman this franchise has produced in 25 years. Easily. He is a cornerstone player, a franchise defenceman, the best chance we've had in those 25 years to bring ourselves back to a Stanley Cup. And if this supposedly proud and classy organization can't see past its political nose to do the right thing by PK Subban, then it clearly isn't the organization I thought it was, nor will it ever be again.

#FireTherrien

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04-05-2014, 02:45 PM
  #211
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Originally Posted by optimus2861 View Post
My great fear is that this organization will succumb to its usual franco-political b.s., choose to believe Therrien's version of whatever in hell has gone down between he & PK this season, severely sour relations with PK, and ultimately run him out of town for a garbage return.

And that will be the day I will disown this franchise for good. PK Subban is the absolute best and most talented defenceman this franchise has produced in 25 years. Easily. He is a cornerstone player, a franchise defenceman, the best chance we've had in those 25 years to bring ourselves back to a Stanley Cup. And if this supposedly proud and classy organization can't see past its political nose to do the right thing by PK Subban, then it clearly isn't the organization I thought it was, nor will it ever be again.

#FireTherrien
There is no such thing.

And if, god forbid, Therrien was preferred over PK, then it would not be because of language.

Can this ****ing garbage stop please?

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04-05-2014, 02:53 PM
  #212
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Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
PK is a lot more high risk on offense, with the puck than he is defensively.

Most offensive d-men are high risk with the puck, some more than others. PK isn't great defensively but but he is above average in terms of overall NHL.
Very reasonable assessment of PK....something that doesn't happen here enough. The people that believe PK is the best d-man in the league have a very active imagination that thankful make me laugh....most of the time.

In all there arguments they assume so much, ex: you don't watch the habs...you listen to TSN or CBC...that there knowledge of hockey is superior some how because they have shot off there mouth with 5 zillion post....

For one thing I live in Lima Peru and don't watch either CBC or TSN. I watch all my games on Game Center. So I need to explain... all the CBC and TSN games you don't see the intermission or even commercials for some reason, there always black out....which does not bother me because I watch other games during the habs intermission.

I also like to watch the other teams broadcasters that are playing the habs...they have more consistent example of the good and the bad of how the habs play....and with all these 29 other broadcasters teams it might come to a surprise for all the illusion PK fantasy fans... that they never mentions that PK is the best d-man in the league....a great defensive player....a good shutdown defenseman.......

What they do say is he's one of the most exciting players to watch in the league today....that his offensive game is one of the best in the league...that many Habs fans are crazy in love with PK which cause a lot of useless controversy in the media....that last statement came as a great shock to me

Anyways believe what ever you want.......the most important thing is were all Habs fans

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04-05-2014, 02:58 PM
  #213
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
We will continue to disagree.

The Habs had Subban during his prime Norris Trophy season. 1st Round Exit. We did not have Vanek and we had very little scoring against Ottawa.

This team sorely needs the offensive punch that Vanek now provides. And Vanek should be Priority # 1 for Bergevin. Subban can be Priority # 1A (if that might make you feel better).
What is this crap about us being eliminated in the 1st? Are you insinuating that PK is the reason we didn't go to the 2nd round?? Such a stupid comment.

If we didn't have PK, you would say how this team sorely needs another top D.
Subban is our top priority, it's not even close.

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04-05-2014, 03:03 PM
  #214
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by MTL-rules View Post
Please, go ahead bookmark it...

I, unlike many posters here, am not afraid to say I was wrong... and unlike other posters I can be critical of players because I'm not in love with any of them.

Subban is arguably the most talented Defenceman in the league, but you're mistaking talent with results.

Subby-doo is exciting and when he's on, so important and a real game changer. But elite players don't get benched, don't make mental mistakes over and over again... and don't bring the discriminatory card about his use... he had a very poor season, yet he's still top in the league in offensive categories which tells a lot about his skills.

But, he's not playing up to his talent and that's why he doesn't deserve to be the most paid defenceman (espacially that he isn't UFA). Leave your rose-colored glasses home and be a little more critical for the greater good of the team. We just can't commit to that type of deal (8mil+) for a player who plays when he decides to... like Ovechkin.

As for Weber... Why ? Because he's better and signed to a 7,8mil cap hit deal... that's why.

... oh and for future references : elite player make their teammates better. Markov does... don't play the "Bouillon card" espacially that's he's been paired a lot more with Georges and Markov than Bouillon.
I take it you rarely watch Doughty, Keith, Weber, Suter, Pietro or any other elite Dman if you thing they don't make stupid mental mistakes. Those guys make plenty of mistakes as well.

Weber got like 100+ Million. His cap hit would be much higher (like most of the other elites) under the new rules. And no, Weber is definitely not better. I'm guessing you're basing the little sample from the Olympics to say that.

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04-05-2014, 03:19 PM
  #215
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
We will continue to disagree.

The Habs had Subban during his prime Norris Trophy season. 1st Round Exit. We did not have Vanek and we had very little scoring against Ottawa.

This team sorely needs the offensive punch that Vanek now provides. And Vanek should be Priority # 1 for Bergevin. Subban can be Priority # 1A (if that might make you feel better).
Yes, and he led the team in goals, points, and penalty minutes while our franchise center and goal scoring winger combined for 1 assist in 9 games. What does a that 1st round exit have to do with anything?

Defence and depth down the middle wins in the playoffs, not one dimensional wingers. I'd love to sign Vanek, but to say he is more valuable to us than PK is just delusional.

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04-05-2014, 03:31 PM
  #216
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1. Subban is elite talent, but the jury is still out if he can take the mental mistakes out of his game. Understood that all elite D's make mistakes, Subban seems to make more and at very critical moments. His game has been off since the new year.

2. If Subban accepts hostile offer - Habs will match. They may decide to trade him after, but no way MB accepts draft picks.

3. PK might have accomplished much, but he is still young player. Habs coaching staff and management have been just as tough, if not tougher, on Tinordi and Beaulieu.

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04-05-2014, 03:36 PM
  #217
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If Bergevin trade subban, it will HAVE to be a bank-beaking move. A fundamental change in our future lineup.

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04-05-2014, 03:45 PM
  #218
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Pk needs to start playing with more focus. He was atrocious. So many games this year he was both by far the worst and best player on the ice. He does junior level mistakes out there.

I can't blame Therrien for benching him, he's so talented you expect more.

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04-05-2014, 03:46 PM
  #219
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
If Bergevin trade subban, it will HAVE to be a bank-beaking move. A fundamental change in our future lineup.
Every player is tradeable, Boston traded Seguin FFS.

It obviously won't please everyone, but clearly Subban is not Bergevin/Therrien type of player and they are the management team. I like the path they have put the Habs on even if this clashes with PK.

Subban has also chosen a bad year to have a somewhat down season, but some of the blame also sits with the management team. They have chosen a course of action with PK and it appears to not be returning the results they expected.

I agree with some who think this is heading to an off-season showdown. Listening to Bergevin on the Nilan show this week, I am inclined to think that Subban will get an offer much less than what he expects.

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04-05-2014, 03:48 PM
  #220
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
What is this crap about us being eliminated in the 1st? Are you insinuating that PK is the reason we didn't go to the 2nd round?? Such a stupid comment.

If we didn't have PK, you would say how this team sorely needs another top D.
Subban is our top priority, it's not even close.
Kriss, life would be so much better if you did not try to make claims about what I am "insinuating".

So I agree with you that saying PK is the reason we didnt go to the 2nd round would be a stupid comment. Because I did not say that.

And I will tell you the same thing I told LG. Please try to get it out of your mind that I am advocating getting rid of PK Subban from the Habs.

Thanks.

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04-05-2014, 03:51 PM
  #221
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Originally Posted by Tinordi Ruxpin View Post
Subban already did the Habs a favor and accepted a low ball 2 year deal. He isn't going to do it again, especially after how he has been treated by his coach the past 2 years.

Seriously, why doesn't Erik Karlsson face the same scrutiny? He's worse defensively than Subban by a mile, yet remains a media darling and a TOI machine.
I guess you don't live in Ottawa. His coach threw him under the bus multiple times this season. Did it again this week.

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04-05-2014, 03:52 PM
  #222
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Originally Posted by Smoky Thompson View Post
Yes, and he led the team in goals, points, and penalty minutes while our franchise center and goal scoring winger combined for 1 assist in 9 games. What does a that 1st round exit have to do with anything?

Defence and depth down the middle wins in the playoffs, not one dimensional wingers. I'd love to sign Vanek, but to say he is more valuable to us than PK is just delusional.
One last time.........

The Habs lineup as it was last season without an elite winger like Vanek playing on a line with Pacioretty simply did not have the offensive talent and ability to make it far in the playoffs.

Repeating it again and again until people can finally grasp the concept that a winger like Vanek is needed on this team to compete for a Cup.

Notice in this post I did not mention the name of the player who is mentioned in the OP so that assumptions cannot be made.

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04-05-2014, 03:56 PM
  #223
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Originally Posted by Habnot View Post
Every player is tradeable, Boston traded Seguin FFS.

It obviously won't please everyone, but clearly Subban is not Bergevin/Therrien type of player and they are the management team. I like the path they have put the Habs on even if this clashes with PK.

Subban has also chosen a bad year to have a somewhat down season, but some of the blame also sits with the management team. They have chosen a course of action with PK and it appears to not be returning the results they expected.

I agree with some who think this is heading to an off-season showdown. Listening to Bergevin on the Nilan show this week, I am inclined to think that Subban will get an offer much less than what he expects.
If he gets traded, we're looking at a similar return/if not worse than Seguin. Guaranteed one overpaid past prime replacement D coming back that's for sure due to the cap.

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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
One last time.........

The Habs lineup as it was last season without an elite winger like Vanek playing on a line with Pacioretty simply did not have the offensive talent and ability to make it far in the playoffs.

Repeating it again and again until people can finally grasp the concept that a winger like Vanek is needed on this team to compete for a Cup.

Notice in this post I did not mention the name of the player who is mentioned in the OP so that assumptions cannot be made.
Actually you need both...there aren't many teams going far in playoffs without high end D. Subban, Vanek, Pacioretty, Price, Galchenyuk should be star power core with Plekanec/Markov as good veteran support. This franchise never had this many good pieces in a lineup in a very long time. The management will show it's true colours this offseason, there is realistic potential of losing both Subban/Vanek and becoming Houle 2.0 or getting everyone signed/actually do their job and develop their young talent to play their best not regress to depths they've never reached.


Last edited by Watsatheo: 04-05-2014 at 04:10 PM.
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04-05-2014, 03:57 PM
  #224
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Originally Posted by Habnot View Post
Every player is tradeable, Boston traded Seguin FFS.

It obviously won't please everyone, but clearly Subban is not Bergevin/Therrien type of player and they are the management team. I like the path they have put the Habs on even if this clashes with PK.

Subban has also chosen a bad year to have a somewhat down season, but some of the blame also sits with the management team. They have chosen a course of action with PK and it appears to not be returning the results they expected.

I agree with some who think this is heading to an off-season showdown. Listening to Bergevin on the Nilan show this week, I am inclined to think that Subban will get an offer much less than what he expects.
Did I argued that he cannot be traded?

I just said that Bergevin hasn't seemed to be the sort of GM to pull a Savard-like trade of Chelios, or a Houle-like trade of Roy.

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04-05-2014, 04:26 PM
  #225
Frozenice
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If he gets traded, we're looking at a similar return/if not worse than Seguin. Guaranteed one overpaid past prime replacement D coming back that's for sure due to the cap.
I think we'd be looking at a Kessel type of return for PK. You would have Edmonton, Calgary, Philadelphia and Toronto with a possibility of a team like the NYI'ers interested in him, so you'd have enough teams with young talent competing for him, which should drive the price up.

Toronto would love to have him there, probably on a par with us wanting Lecavalier 10 years ago, it's not a rational value judgement. Bell and Rogers would make enough money on selling extra Leaf.tv packages and merchandising to pay for his salary. It's like them getting free money to play with.

A lot of people won't like the trade no matter what but the value we get in return will be there.

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