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Sat., Apr. 5, 2014| Flyers 2 at Bruins 5

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04-06-2014, 09:58 AM
  #201
deadhead
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Flyers are a young, good team that like most young, talented but not uber talented teams tend to be inconsistent. If you have to play hard for 60 minutes every game, well, even a motivated team isn't going to do that for 80 games. That's just reality.

This team is 2 years away, and a patient FO, from being a real contender. They need more depth, another scoring winger for the top 3 lines and a better fourth line, better defensemen, and more reliable goal keeping (Mason has been solid, but he can't carry a team).

The one thing they do NOT need is to think they're one blockbuster trade for the next Pronger from winning a cup. First, there is no Pronger out there, second they don't have the depth in talent to pull that trade off without gutting their future. Instead, they need to patiently build up their talent base, develop their young defensemen, and let some of the current players mature.

I know that's something they haven't done the last two decades, it's so tempting to "do something," but given the progress this team has made over the course of this season, that's the something they should be doing.

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04-06-2014, 10:51 AM
  #202
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deadhead View Post
Flyers are a young, good team that like most young, talented but not uber talented teams tend to be inconsistent. If you have to play hard for 60 minutes every game, well, even a motivated team isn't going to do that for 80 games. That's just reality.

This team is 2 years away, and a patient FO, from being a real contender. They need more depth, another scoring winger for the top 3 lines and a better fourth line, better defensemen, and more reliable goal keeping (Mason has been solid, but he can't carry a team).

The one thing they do NOT need is to think they're one blockbuster trade for the next Pronger from winning a cup. First, there is no Pronger out there, second they don't have the depth in talent to pull that trade off without gutting their future. Instead, they need to patiently build up their talent base, develop their young defensemen, and let some of the current players mature.

I know that's something they haven't done the last two decades, it's so tempting to "do something," but given the progress this team has made over the course of this season, that's the something they should be doing.
I don't see the need for another "scoring winger". Chicago has four 20 goal-scorers. Boston has four. Anaheim has four. St. Louis has five. If you look around the league, we're right there with the best of them, with four of our own.

The defense could correct itself in time (Coburn, Schenn, Gus, Ghost, Hagg, Morin, etc.)

The goaltending could correct itself in time (Mason, Stolarz, etc.)

The fourth-line will correct itself in the immediate future (Raffl, Laughton, etc.)

Just have some voids at skill positions that might need a little attention.*

* Second-line center could be a struggle if Schenn or Couturier don't break out in a big way, and number-one defenseman will be a struggle if somebody doesn't surprise.

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04-06-2014, 11:40 AM
  #203
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Originally Posted by Clown Baby View Post
I don't see the need for another "scoring winger". Chicago has four 20 goal-scorers. Boston has four. Anaheim has four. St. Louis has five. If you look around the league, we're right there with the best of them, with four of our own.
I get what you are saying, but I don't agree. We have all "setup" guys here, and no real scorers. Our best scoring forward is probably Read...and that's not good. Hartnell and Simmonds are more grinder than scorer...

Our second line is getting nothing done at ES...And that's a huge problem. We need a second superstar on this team, and having that guy on the second line would help immensely.

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04-06-2014, 11:42 AM
  #204
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Originally Posted by deadhead View Post
Flyers are a young, good team that like most young, talented but not uber talented teams tend to be inconsistent. If you have to play hard for 60 minutes every game, well, even a motivated team isn't going to do that for 80 games. That's just reality.

This team is 2 years away, and a patient FO, from being a real contender. They need more depth, another scoring winger for the top 3 lines and a better fourth line, better defensemen, and more reliable goal keeping (Mason has been solid, but he can't carry a team).

The one thing they do NOT need is to think they're one blockbuster trade for the next Pronger from winning a cup. First, there is no Pronger out there, second they don't have the depth in talent to pull that trade off without gutting their future. Instead, they need to patiently build up their talent base, develop their young defensemen, and let some of the current players mature.

I know that's something they haven't done the last two decades, it's so tempting to "do something," but given the progress this team has made over the course of this season, that's the something they should be doing.
i disagree about masons ability, but yes patience and tempered expectations should be the attitude in flyerdom.

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04-06-2014, 12:12 PM
  #205
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Originally Posted by achdumeingute View Post
I get what you are saying, but I don't agree. We have all "setup" guys here, and no real scorers. Our best scoring forward is probably Read...and that's not good. Hartnell and Simmonds are more grinder than scorer...
Could I ask, which goal-scorers are available and aren't somewhat of a liability at ES?

Eberle's name has been thrown about, but his history is well-documented. Skinner's not much better defensively. (Though with Read and Giroux both in the top-six the question that really needs to be asked is "do we really need another sub 6' forward?")

I haven't read great things about Ryan. Vanek's near 30, has an injury history, and is going to come with a 6 million dollar+ cap-hit. We could probably acquire Evander Kane, but certainly not without creating holes elsewhere in the line-up because of where Winnipeg is at organizationally.

Bottom line is, for what you're looking to add, what Holmgren would have to sacrifice, I question if it really improves the team or if it's just fans posturing.

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Our second line is getting nothing done at ES...And that's a huge problem. We need a second superstar on this team, and having that guy on the second line would help immensely.
That's the biggest problem I have with this offense. When Richards wasn't on his game, Carter or Briere were right there behind him to support the offense. Giroux is relying on Couturier, who's still ridiculously young, Schenn, who's ridiculously inconsistent, and LeCavalier. There's too big of a drop-off for this team to be successful. And maybe part of that is the age gap between the players.

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04-06-2014, 12:36 PM
  #206
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Sure another good winger would help this team but the bigger issue is easily the defense. I know everyone loves Wayne Simmonds because of his point total but if you're looking for a reason for ES struggles offensively look no further than him being relied on to play considerable offensive minutes. He's a great net front guy but without the time and space provided to him by the power play he obviously struggles to not turn the puck over. He's really only good in the offensive zone and is terrible at moving the puck through the neutral zone.

The biggest issue I see with the forward group is the misallocation of playing time and assets on that second forward group. The team has managed to make up with some of their mistakes by finding guys like Raffl and Read but when they're playing mostly checking line minutes they're going to struggle to provide offense.

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04-06-2014, 12:42 PM
  #207
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Originally Posted by achdumeingute View Post
Our second line is getting nothing done at ES...And that's a huge problem. We need a second superstar on this team, and having that guy on the second line would help immensely.
Simmonds and Schenn (the 2nd line) are 3rd and 4th, respectively, in ES scoring. G and Jake are 1st and 2nd. Considering G is a top 5 forward in the league the gap in ES scoring is substantial between the two, that's always gonna be the case unless we're the Penguins. The gap between Jake and Simmonds in ES points isn't substantial (3 points) and the gap between Simmonds and Schenn is even less so (2 points). Looking back at past years the 2nd lines ES scoring isn't much of an issue. Sure it's not as good as it once was but in a few years when Schenn and Couts become more consistent and develop a bit everything will be fine.

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That's the biggest problem I have with this offense. When Richards wasn't on his game, Carter or Briere were right there behind him to support the offense. Giroux is relying on Couturier, who's still ridiculously young, Schenn, who's ridiculously inconsistent, and LeCavalier. There's too big of a drop-off for this team to be successful. And maybe part of that is the age gap between the players.
Schenn and Couts are like a year and a half apart. If Couts is ridiculously young then Schenn is young, which he is at 22. The age thing explains both their offensive struggles. Them maturing over the next couple years will fix the support system that you are eluding to.

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04-06-2014, 12:51 PM
  #208
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Originally Posted by Clown Baby View Post
Could I ask, which goal-scorers are available and aren't somewhat of a liability at ES?

Eberle's name has been thrown about, but his history is well-documented. Skinner's not much better defensively. (Though with Read and Giroux both in the top-six the question that really needs to be asked is "do we really need another sub 6' forward?")

I haven't read great things about Ryan. Vanek's near 30, has an injury history, and is going to come with a 6 million dollar+ cap-hit. We could probably acquire Evander Kane, but certainly not without creating holes elsewhere in the line-up because of where Winnipeg is at organizationally.

Bottom line is, for what you're looking to add, what Holmgren would have to sacrifice, I question if it really improves the team or if it's just fans posturing.

That's the biggest problem I have with this offense. When Richards wasn't on his game, Carter or Briere were right there behind him to support the offense. Giroux is relying on Couturier, who's still ridiculously young, Schenn, who's ridiculously inconsistent, and LeCavalier. There's too big of a drop-off for this team to be successful. And maybe part of that is the age gap between the players.
I'm not necessarily looking to get a young player or a long term solution. There is no debating our second line is the weak link here. Schenn isn't ready to carry it, lecav, isn't a wing, and Simmonds isn't a "talent" guy. You talked about Chi and Anh, well their top 4 four forwards are light years better than ours.

I'd have no issue offering a "gaborik" a high salary 1yr deal similar to what Car did with semin.

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04-06-2014, 12:57 PM
  #209
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Originally Posted by FlyersFan61290 View Post
Simmonds and Schenn (the 2nd line) are 3rd and 4th, respectively, in ES scoring. G and Jake are 1st and 2nd. Considering G is a top 5 forward in the league the gap in ES scoring is substantial between the two, that's always gonna be the case unless we're the Penguins. The gap between Jake and Simmonds in ES points isn't substantial (3 points) and the gap between Simmonds and Schenn is even less so (2 points). Looking back at past years the 2nd lines ES scoring isn't much of an issue. Sure it's not as good as it once was but in a few years when Schenn and Couts become more consistent and develop a bit everything will be fine.



Schenn and Couts are like a year and a half apart. If Couts is ridiculously young then Schenn is young, which he is at 22. The age thing explains both their offensive struggles. Them maturing over the next couple years will fix the support system that you are eluding to.
this is all fine and good two years from now, it's not helping today. I'm certainly not advocating we make any big trades to address this. At some point, we are going to need another high level offensive talent. I do have doubts it will be Schenn.

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04-06-2014, 02:47 PM
  #210
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Originally Posted by achdumeingute View Post
this is all fine and good two years from now, it's not helping today. I'm certainly not advocating we make any big trades to address this. At some point, we are going to need another high level offensive talent. I do have doubts it will be Schenn.
My point is if the young guys improve a little they won't need another high offensive talent.

This team has significantly bigger problems then the offense so I'm not worried about "today" but rather "two years from now."

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04-06-2014, 02:54 PM
  #211
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Originally Posted by achdumeingute View Post
I'm not necessarily looking to get a young player or a long term solution. There is no debating our second line is the weak link here. Schenn isn't ready to carry it, lecav, isn't a wing, and Simmonds isn't a "talent" guy. You talked about Chi and Anh, well their top 4 four forwards are light years better than ours.

I'd have no issue offering a "gaborik" a high salary 1yr deal similar to what Car did with semin.
It sure it light years better but they also have three All-Stars in their top 4. They have the best offense in the league, that's not necessary to win. It's a bad comparison.

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04-06-2014, 03:01 PM
  #212
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All the clamouring for Gus in the lineup makes sense in every aspect but one. Without Grossmann, the Flyers only have three penalty killing defensemen: Kimmo, Coburn and Schenn. If one of those guys is in the box, now you're down to two. MacDonald is okay on the penalty kill, but he's not a big body in front of the net.

It may seem like a weak reason to keep Grossmann in the lineup, but I am certain that his being on the PK is the primary reason why he isn't scratched in favour of Gus.

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04-06-2014, 03:35 PM
  #213
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All the clamouring for Gus in the lineup makes sense in every aspect but one. Without Grossmann, the Flyers only have three penalty killing defensemen: Kimmo, Coburn and Schenn. If one of those guys is in the box, now you're down to two. MacDonald is okay on the penalty kill, but he's not a big body in front of the net.

It may seem like a weak reason to keep Grossmann in the lineup, but I am certain that his being on the PK is the primary reason why he isn't scratched in favour of Gus.
I think your reasoning is sound, but when Kimmo missed the game vs. St. Louis, he was replaced by Gus, not Gill (who does kill penalties). Gill is obviously insanely rusty, but like Gus, he's on the roster, you should be having intentions to use him if he's needed.


MacDonald may or may not be good at it, but he was acquired because he was a minutes-eating defenseman and averages more TOI/60 4v5 than Schenn (Meszaros didn't). That's exactly the kind of versatility you acquired him for.

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