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02-28-2007, 02:23 AM
  #51
Borlag
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While Williams was bad, Calder has also been bad in Philadelphia for the most part of the season. When Detroit had the Cleary, Lang, Williams trio, that line worked. We simply don't know if Calder meshes well with the top two lines we have. The risk in the Bertuzzi deal is similar, we simply don't know how it'll affect the team chemistry, and we simply don't know if there'll be locker room problems because of this.

So again like I said, this has the potential to be a great trade, but it has the potential to be a bust as well... How hard is that to understand?

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02-28-2007, 02:26 AM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Borlag View Post
So again like I said, this has the potential to be a great trade, but it has the potential to be a bust as well... How hard is that to understand?
In reality you've said nothing because EVERY trade can obviously swing both ways.

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02-28-2007, 02:31 AM
  #53
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If that's the way you want to interpret it, then so be it, but I believe I said much more than that. Bertuzzi has a history of being a problem player, and he's had a long term injury as well this season, Calder had one great season in Chicago, and now he's been having a crappy season in Philly. Those add up to the risk, not detract from it.

Had it been trades for Smyth and Gelinas for example, the risk would be much smaller as those guys don't have the same problems that Bert and Calder has had this season. Chemistry is always a gamble, these two trades both had additional issues to go along with them.

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02-28-2007, 02:35 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Borlag View Post
So again like I said, this has the potential to be a great trade, but it has the potential to be a bust as well... How hard is that to understand?
Mattias and a 3rd is losing enough to make a trade a 'bust' to you?

Look, if Bertuzzi even plays at all and flops around at a half point per game he's worth Mattias and a 3rd.

Mattias may never be an NHLer and even if he is we're looking at 2009, and a third liner.

Do you know how many NHLers have been drafted with the last five picks in the third round between the 2000 and 2004 drafts? Six (Moore, Vellieux, Sharp, Artyukin, Filppula, and Franzen). Only 6 of the 25 picks even turned into NHLers, and only 3 of those guys are legit NHLers now. Two of them are in Detroit already.

I'll say it again... Detroit gives up next to nothing in this deal if the team struggles early.

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02-28-2007, 02:38 AM
  #55
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...

I already said that I'm happy about the fact that we gave very little in these trades. And I also already said that I doubt Mattias ever had a chance to crack the Wings lineup. If you're going to reply to my post, atleast make the effort to respond to the point I was trying to make...

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02-28-2007, 02:39 AM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kira View Post
A lot of people know there is no love lost between me and Todd Bertuzzi. This goes back a long time. I will swallow my hatred and accept the inevitable.

BUT he better damned well PROVE to me that he deserves to wear the Red and White. That means bringing it EVERY NIGHT - not when you feel like it, not when the mood strikes you. EVERY SINGLE NIGHT. No exceptions.

Until he can PROVE to me that he has earned it, the jury will stay out.
I knew you were going to react like this, lets hope everything works out fine!

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02-28-2007, 02:40 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Borlag View Post
From Yzerman, the classiest guy in hockey, to Bert in one year...
One of the dumbest comments on this boards this year

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02-28-2007, 02:42 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Borlag View Post
Had it been trades for Smyth and Gelinas for example, the risk would be much smaller as those guys don't have the same problems that Bert and Calder has had this season.
...and had it been trades for those two guys Detroit would have given up a ton more, especially on the front end of the deal, which vastly increases the risk. The Isles gave up essentially 3 #1's whether they even make the playoffs or not, or whether Smyth plays well or not. Now that's risk, because risk implies something hazarded against an unseen future. What did Detroit hazard here? If Bertuzzi doesn't work out it's Mattias and a 3rd and the team still has the same roster it started with sans the Williams/Calder swap (which is an upgrade any concievable way you look at it), and cleared 1.6 mil off next years' books.

The 'risk', such as it is, only escalates as Detroit's postseason fortunes in general and Bertuzzi's play in particular escalate... how can that even be called 'risk'?

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02-28-2007, 02:48 AM
  #59
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I like the deal!

Bertuzzi is exactly what this team needed, Chelios already sent email to him so were off to a good start

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02-28-2007, 02:49 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Borlag View Post
...

I already said that I'm happy about the fact that we gave very little in these trades. And I also already said that I doubt Mattias ever had a chance to crack the Wings lineup. If you're going to reply to my post, atleast make the effort to respond to the point I was trying to make...
Then it sounds like you're arguing with yourself, Borlag. If your point is 'I like the trade, Mattias was never going to play for Detroit, but the trade is very risky' then you're being non-sensical, because even if things go to hell in a handbasket Detroit gives up a guy who you admit will likely never have played for them anyway and a 3rd. Woo. This is risk?

As far as lockerroom problems go... what? Seriously, do you think a team like the Wings with their history and leadership both on and off the ice are going to allow a guy like Bertuzzi to come in and disrupt that? Have you even read any of the guys' quotes so far? Bertuzzi's?

Yeah, a lockerroom with Babcock, Lidstrom, Draper and Chelios in it is going to get tipped over because Bertuzzi joins the team in March. I can't possibly imagine what could concievably connect those two dots in anyones mind.

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02-28-2007, 02:52 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by CuJo#31 View Post
I like the deal!

Bertuzzi is exactly what this team needed, Chelios already sent email to him so were off to a good start
The thing that blows my mind is that Chelios uses email. Seriously, can you picture him sitting in front of a computer IM'ing people?

"ur gonna lik it here, Bert. lollololololl."

What's next... Khan reporting Chelios has a level 62 Troll Mage on the Argent Dawn server?

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02-28-2007, 02:55 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
The thing that blows my mind is that Chelios uses email. Seriously, can you picture him sitting in front of a computer IM'ing people?

"ur gonna lik it here, Bert. lollololololl."

What's next... Khan reporting Chelios has a level 62 Troll Mage on the Argent Dawn server?
LOL

Well, it shows that there are no hard feelings between him and Bert, it's a classy thing to do IMO

And we donít know if Chelios sent the email, maybe Hudler did it for him and explained how to do it

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02-28-2007, 03:02 AM
  #63
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HD, let me ask you this. Do you see these two trades as long term investments or as a push for this years Cup run? I see them as the latter.

Based on skill only, this trade is a big win for us. Based on the trade value, this trade is also a big win for us. But if Bertuzzi can't play this season, or if he messes up the locker room with his antics, it's another first round defeat for us even if we did win with the actual trades.

The way I see this, is that Holland took the easy way out by making two cheap trades with the potential to make us go over the top. While that by itself is good, the potential to make us flunk even worse than we did couple years in a row is in my opinion greater than the chance to get it all, for that I already explained the reasoning behind it.

So while the majority of Wings fans seem to be happy for this, I would've been much happier had the Wings gone straight for someone who they'd really want to keep for the future as well. The price they would've had to pay for Smyth would've been much larger, like we saw, but at the same time Smyth is the kind of guy you know you can build on. I would've also wanted Holland to address the need for one more physical defenseman, and perhaps getting rid of the turnover machine in Lang too.

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02-28-2007, 03:38 AM
  #64
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Bertuzzi and Chelios??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-oz4l35VVg

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02-28-2007, 03:45 AM
  #65
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Past issues aside, his health concerns me. Out 6-8 weeks has turned into 18-19 weeks. I also remember talk of him returning a week or two before the deadline, well here we are. I hope he can at least play this season, otherwise what did we get him for? Emotional support?

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02-28-2007, 04:27 AM
  #66
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from a vancouver fans opinion......

this was a good pickup.

Bert is a player that has the hands of a pure goal scorer and the size of a power forward. If he gets pissed, watch the @#%^ out. He can literally drive to the net with defenders on his back and score. He takes a lot of abuse and punishment. he has some sick moves as well. Really, this was a good pickup.

a couple things to be concerned with are.
hes a baby. He whines about every penalty he takes, and he takes a lot of them.
he will take your team off the powerplay., he led the leaugue last year in penaltys taken while on the pp.
he is lazy, good luck backchecking. I have literally seen him wait at the blueline while the play is deep in his own end.
he tends to stick to a certain clique in the locker room, and is not a "team guy". Terrible to interview......just plain moody and grumpy.

thats about it, but if Bert has that "eye of the tiger" he can be in the leagues top 10.

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02-28-2007, 05:22 AM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Borlag View Post
HD, let me ask you this. Do you see these two trades as long term investments or as a push for this years Cup run? I see them as the latter.
Of course it's the latter. Both Bert and Calder are UFAs after this season. They're rentals with the potential of sticking around, hopefully at better prices than this season. They both have something to prove, which is good for us.

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Originally Posted by Borlag View Post
Based on skill only, this trade is a big win for us. Based on the trade value, this trade is also a big win for us. But if Bertuzzi can't play this season, or if he messes up the locker room with his antics, it's another first round defeat for us even if we did win with the actual trades.
He won't disrupt the team. Even with Yzerman and Shanahan gone, this team has one of the strongest leadership groups in the league. And he's here for the stretch and the playoffs.

I could go so far as to say that if Bert doesn't play at all or plays like ****, we essentially traded Williams, Matthias (13 ranked prospect who might end up as a checking line center when we already have Helm and Abdelkader) and a 3rd in 2007to get Calder and free up 1.6 million dollars for a better chance at resigning Datsyuk and finding a good replacement for Lang. That's not that bad a trade in my eyes.

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Originally Posted by Borlag View Post
The way I see this, is that Holland took the easy way out by making two cheap trades with the potential to make us go over the top. While that by itself is good, the potential to make us flunk even worse than we did couple years in a row is in my opinion greater than the chance to get it all, for that I already explained the reasoning behind it.
The easy way out? He pulled off the smartest trade of the year. If Bertuzzi doesn't pan out, we've lost almost nothing. If he plays at half capacity of Bertuzzi 2002/2003, it's a great trade. Don't you understand a basic concept such as risk/reward? You can't trade without risk. There are no guarantees. Let's compare this to Nashville getting Forsberg unconditionally. Apparently he's already feeling soreness in his foot. Whoopdedoo, what a surprise. He could go down and stay down or play like a ghost of himself for the rest of the season and the playoffs. Or he could play like a monster. Either way, Nashville gave up a hell of a lot of assets to get him. The same with Ryan Smyth. Holland getting those conditions in the trade removes virtually all the risk in this trade. How can you not see that?

And how can you say that we have the potential to flunk even worse than last year? That doesn't even make sense. And no, you haven't explained the reasoning behind it. Probably because you're not making any sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Borlag View Post
So while the majority of Wings fans seem to be happy for this, I would've been much happier had the Wings gone straight for someone who they'd really want to keep for the future as well. The price they would've had to pay for Smyth would've been much larger, like we saw, but at the same time Smyth is the kind of guy you know you can build on. I would've also wanted Holland to address the need for one more physical defenseman, and perhaps getting rid of the turnover machine in Lang too.
Bleh.


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02-28-2007, 05:25 AM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kira View Post
A lot of people know there is no love lost between me and Todd Bertuzzi. This goes back a long time. I will swallow my hatred and accept the inevitable.

BUT he better damned well PROVE to me that he deserves to wear the Red and White. That means bringing it EVERY NIGHT - not when you feel like it, not when the mood strikes you. EVERY SINGLE NIGHT. No exceptions.

Until he can PROVE to me that he has earned it, the jury will stay out.
Oh come on...

Can you be a bigger hypocrite?

Your crush Datsyuk plays like a ghost sometimes. Why aren't you screaming "YOU DON'T DESERVE TO WEAR THE RED AND WHITE!!!333" when he does that?

Or how about all your childish whining whenever any of us criticize Datsyuk for behing a playoff ghost? Hasn't he deserved that criticism?

You're not making any sense whatsoever. Just irrational hatred.

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02-28-2007, 05:40 AM
  #69
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You say for certain that he's not going to disrupt the team, I say I believe that when I see it. If and when he comes back and starts playing, what's there to say that he wont start whining if things don't go his way right from the start? What's there to say that he wont demand a topline spot, and that way possibly wrecking the chemistry Z, D and Homer have currently?

And while you say it was the smartest deal in the deadline, I counter that with Burke. According to reports he too tried to get Bertuzzi, and lost. Do you honestly think that Burke couldn't counter it with a better offer? Perhaps Burke saw the issues that might rise from the trade, just like I'm seeing them now...

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02-28-2007, 05:48 AM
  #70
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I don't like this. I really don't. I hope he proves me wrong, but I doubt it.

There were better players available... Then again, the price wasn't much.

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02-28-2007, 06:13 AM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Borlag View Post
And while you say it was the smartest deal in the deadline, I counter that with Burke. According to reports he too tried to get Bertuzzi, and lost. Do you honestly think that Burke couldn't counter it with a better offer? Perhaps Burke saw the issues that might rise from the trade, just like I'm seeing them now...
Burke has a lot of first-hand experience Bertuzzi. Why would Burke try to get Bertuzzi if he knew about 'the isues' that you saw? Did he try to get him then all of a sudden remember he's a cancer?

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02-28-2007, 06:17 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Borlag View Post
HD, let me ask you this. Do you see these two trades as long term investments or as a push for this years Cup run? I see them as the latter.
With all due respect, Borlag... duh. Of course they are short term moves. The point here is that the probability and amount of improvement in this years team by adding Bertuzzi and Calder wildly surpasses the probability and amount of declination in some future roster by the absence of Mattias and a 3rd.

Quote:
Based on skill only, this trade is a big win for us. Based on the trade value, this trade is also a big win for us. But if Bertuzzi can't play this season, or if he messes up the locker room with his antics, it's another first round defeat for us even if we did win with the actual trades.
Welcome to the new NHL. All an organization can do is the best they can in acquiring personnel. At some point it becomes the personnel's responsibility to win.

Quote:
The way I see this, is that Holland took the easy way out by making two cheap trades with the potential to make us go over the top. While that by itself is good, the potential to make us flunk even worse than we did couple years in a row is in my opinion greater than the chance to get it all, for that I already explained the reasoning behind it.
I simply have no idea what you're talking about here. I admit to lacking the processing power to comprehend it.

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So while the majority of Wings fans seem to be happy for this, I would've been much happier had the Wings gone straight for someone who they'd really want to keep for the future as well.
Um, how do you know they didn't do that?

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The price they would've had to pay for Smyth would've been much larger, like we saw, but at the same time Smyth is the kind of guy you know you can build on.
Sure... assuming the team can re-sign him, which is far from a sure thing. Hell, if you're so high on Smyth I'd like to point out there's nothing stopping the team from acquiring him in the offseason. The Isles gave up essentially 3 #1's just to have him for a couple months. Detroit gave up a #2 and a #3 for Bertuzzi. Is Smyth more than 3 times the player Bertuzzi is?

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02-28-2007, 06:23 AM
  #73
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Honestly speaking, I do believe Smyth is more than 3 times the player Bertuzzi is. Smyth brings a whole package, Bertuzzi brings in some goals with some whining.

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02-28-2007, 06:29 AM
  #74
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Originally Posted by canucklehead_1 View Post
Yeah, he did have that whole Moore incident. But you're a Wings fan aren't you? You've seen him play a lot. Did you ever think he was really a dirty player before that incident? He plays tough and hard, that's for sure, but he was never and is not a dirty player, at least in my opinion. He had that one incident (and had Moore not broken his neck it wouldn't have been a big deal--I've seen quite a few similar sucker punches to the back of the head from other players), but that's about it. I'ts a big "it", but he's not one of those guys that is a nasty player like Avery, Marchment or Hatcher. You really don't have to worry about him doing anything like that again.
Thanks.
You said everything I wanted to bring to this conversation.

Hope Bert comes back healthy and hungry.
Not too hungry tho.. if my Nucks meet Wings in the playoffs.

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Honestly speaking, I do believe Smyth is more than 3 times the player Bertuzzi is.
Smyth brings a whole package, Bertuzzi brings in some goals with some whining.

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02-28-2007, 06:31 AM
  #75
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You say for certain that he's not going to disrupt the team, I say I believe that when I see it.
You don't believe that the core group of Wings veterans along with the hardass Babcock can't put him in his place? I'm stunned.

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Originally Posted by Borlag View Post
If and when he comes back and starts playing, what's there to say that he wont start whining if things don't go his way right from the start? What's there to say that he wont demand a topline spot, and that way possibly wrecking the chemistry Z, D and Homer have currently?
How can he possibly wreck the chemistry of the first line? How? Tell me, I'm dying to know.

The fact that he'll most likely play on the second line is probably what he wants. This is about as much of a pressure free situation he could've come to. In Detroit, he's expected to come in, put his head down and not be the go to guy. Just work hard and take some pressure off the first line (which is pretty much set in stone). If he whines, let him whine and then we let him walk in the offseason. But if he whines, I can imagine him getting Chelios and Babcock on his ass. And like someone said, Yzerman is still around and I think that if there is one player Bert respects, it's Stevie. He'll listen to him. I also think that Stevie had a lot to say in acquiring Bert. Apparently he's been very vocal with the braintrust, telling them of his experience with different players the Wings might acquire.

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Originally Posted by Borlag View Post
And while you say it was the smartest deal in the deadline, I counter that with Burke. According to reports he too tried to get Bertuzzi, and lost. Do you honestly think that Burke couldn't counter it with a better offer? Perhaps Burke saw the issues that might rise from the trade, just like I'm seeing them now...
You counter that with Burke... how? What has he done? He didn't get things done, so you're countering that with imaginary deals. Woohoo, go you! If Burke could counter that with a better offer, don't you think he would've done that? But he didn't. So please start making sense.

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