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Thomas Vanek isn't the dominant force we expected him to be. (Update: sick/hurt?)

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Old
04-05-2014, 11:53 AM
  #476
Madam Kadri
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Dominance on offense was never even debatable with regards to Vanek. Dude has some sick hand-eye coordination and hockey sense. Just don't compare him to Hossa because Hossa is a "complete" player on all ends of the ice and is a better skater.

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04-05-2014, 11:58 AM
  #477
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I'm much more open to offering 50million to Vanek now. Funny how that works.

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04-05-2014, 01:39 PM
  #478
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Originally Posted by Madam Kadri View Post
Dominance on offense was never even debatable with regards to Vanek. Dude has some sick hand-eye coordination and hockey sense. Just don't compare him to Hossa because Hossa is a "complete" player on all ends of the ice and is a better skater.
Agreed . Hossa is a complete player. No comparison. Each has offensive skill sets superior to the other. . Stat wise.. I wonder how close Vanek gets career goals and point wise , especially if he is fortunate enough to play the next seven to 10 years on one of the great teams Hossa has.

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04-05-2014, 08:56 PM
  #479
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Vanek looks like he's an intense hockey player, his face suggests his spirit is totally absorbed in the game. Vanek Montreal Perfect™

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04-06-2014, 12:33 PM
  #480
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TV is like a guy looking for the perfect girl . He spent the last six years playing on a one line team with no power play, but with a winger who played his game. Now he has had the opportunity to play with Tavares and KO on LI and DD and Patch in Montreal. Neither line plays his game or sees the ice the way he does. Patch is a great scorer but his skills sets do not match up. DD is...................DD... He made them all better . I can not say they made him better.

No chance of resigning the guy IMO even if there was enough cap room. He goes to Minn to play with POM, with an outside chance he signs with a contender like Boston, Detroit , St Louis or a similar team where they have a line that plays the same finesse, third pass kills game he does.


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04-06-2014, 12:39 PM
  #481
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If Minny signs Vanek, they don't sign Moulson...so the Habs trade Vanek's rights to Minny for Moulson before July 1st, and we sign Moulson...at a cheaper rate than Minny signs Vanek...sound good?

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04-06-2014, 12:43 PM
  #482
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Originally Posted by BLONG7 View Post
If Minny signs Vanek, they don't sign Moulson...so the Habs trade Vanek's rights to Minny for Moulson before July 1st, and we sign Moulson...at a cheaper rate than Minny signs Vanek...sound good?
Minny does not need the rights to TV.

I think Moulson would be perfect for that line. Plus he has a Canadian name ! lol Do you think he makes Patch and DD better? I think he goes back to LI with the new ownership.


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04-06-2014, 12:50 PM
  #483
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Originally Posted by borisbadenough View Post
TV is like a guy looking for the perfect girl . He spent the last six years playing on a one line team with no power play, but with a winger who played his game. Now he has had the opportunity to play with Tavares and KO on LI and DD and Patch in Montreal. Neither line plays his game or sees the ice the way he does. Patch is a great scorer but his skills sets do not match up. DD is...................DD... He made them all better . I can not say they made him better.

No chance of resigning the guy IMO even if there was enough cap room. He goes to Minn to play with POM, with an outside chance he signs with a contender like Boston, Detroit , St Louis or a similar team where they have a line that plays the same finesse, third pass kills game he does.
With all due respect, Jonathan Tavares is a better play-maker,finesse or otherwise, than anyone on St Louis or Minnesota. Patche's is also one of the elite Left wingers in the game right now and is only growing and getting better. they have sick chemistry and making insane passes and tic tac toe goals daily with DD and patches. I don't see how his production would increase much more than what he's doing with the Canadiens. He's close to or above PPG now. The possible reasons for not staying in Long Island may have had more to do with inept management and owner.

I don't see the need to play armchair psychologist before hearing straight from his agent or Vanek himself. If we win the Cup, I don't care what happens next year. For now lets just enjoy the ride and let rebuild/free agent talk for the other canadian teams that are not making the playoffs

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04-06-2014, 12:52 PM
  #484
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Originally Posted by borisbadenough View Post
Minny does not need the rights to TV.

I think Moulson would be perfect for that line. Plus he has a Canadian name ! lol Do you think he makes Patch and DD better? I think he goes back to LI with the new ownership.
No, they don't need his rights, but if they want a window to negotiate, without other teams getting in the way, they may swap rights/

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04-06-2014, 01:05 PM
  #485
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With all due respect, Jonathan Tavares is a better play-maker,finesse or otherwise, than anyone on St Louis or Minnesota. Patche's is also one of the elite Left wingers in the game right now and is only growing and getting better. they have sick chemistry and making insane passes and tic tac toe goals daily with DD and patches. I don't see how his production would increase much more than what he's doing with the Canadiens. He's close to or above PPG now. The possible reasons for not staying in Long Island may have had more to do with inept management and owner.

I don't see the need to play armchair psychologist before hearing straight from his agent or Vanek himself. If we win the Cup, I don't care what happens next year. For now lets just enjoy the ride and let rebuild/free agent talk for the other canadian teams that are not making the playoffs
Tavere's is a great center. He is not in the playmaking vein of a Pavel, Crosby, Giroux or Burgeron or even a Malkin . . That is not a criticism . Patches has the ability to become a 40+ goal scorer for years to come . Agreed. He does not have the passing skills or the Vision YET to play the same game. Do you disagree? It is Vanek who makes him better not vice versa. He puts the pucks on his stick or starts the play when it matters. IMO..Pominville is a better playmaker than DD and Patches combined and he plays his game. Minny has a young center who will fit in nicely with their style.. Two different opinions. We will have to live with that until the deadline. lol We can agree , it is fun to watch. I fear Tampa has the defensive guns to shut down the first line . This could be interesting. What is the tax structure like in Quebec for a guy making 60+ million. lol This game is all chemistry not psychology , unless you happen to be a goaltender..


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04-06-2014, 01:19 PM
  #486
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My guess is how Montreal and Minnesota fare in the playoffs. If the habs bow out in the first round and Minnesota goes further, we have less of a chance of retaining him. If the habs get past the first round and make some noise, and his line clicks in the playoffs, I think the odds are good that he resigns.

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04-06-2014, 02:09 PM
  #487
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Originally Posted by Ice Poutine View Post
i

Vanek represents a choice on skates. Those choices the other team have to make is "Do we concentrate on nullifying Pacoretty or do we try to block Vanek?" and more importantly "Can we do both?"

By trying to do both they realise they cant do that in a perfect way ALL of the time. They then leave either MaxPac or Vanek to score since they will often leave one of them not perfectly covered. Two dangerous snipers on the same line cant be shut down all of the time...

Vanek makes the other team choose more options that are all hard to defend against.
Pretty much. If the other team target him as the go-to-guy, Pacioretty or others will make them pay

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04-06-2014, 02:19 PM
  #488
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Originally Posted by Ice Poutine View Post
i

Vanek represents a choice on skates. Those choices the other team have to make is "Do we concentrate on nullifying Pacoretty or do we try to block Vanek?" and more importantly "Can we do both?"

By trying to do both they realise they cant do that in a perfect way ALL of the time. They then leave either MaxPac or Vanek to score since they will often leave one of them not perfectly covered. Two dangerous snipers on the same line cant be shut down all of the time...

Vanek makes the other team choose more options that are all hard to defend against.
And if Vanek and Pacioretty are on different lines doesn't that also force the other team to make a choice? They either put their shutdown pair out against Pacioretty or out against Vanek either way one of those guys is going against weaker defensive players.

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04-06-2014, 03:36 PM
  #489
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Originally Posted by BLONG7 View Post
If Minny signs Vanek, they don't sign Moulson...so the Habs trade Vanek's rights to Minny for Moulson before July 1st, and we sign Moulson...at a cheaper rate than Minny signs Vanek.. .sound good?
No, it sounds crappy, actually. Matt Moulson isn't half the player that Vanek is.

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04-06-2014, 04:45 PM
  #490
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And if Vanek and Pacioretty are on different lines doesn't that also force the other team to make a choice? They either put their shutdown pair out against Pacioretty or out against Vanek either way one of those guys is going against weaker defensive players.
I'm very much a supporter of this philosophy as well (especially in the playoffs where the ability to crash wave after wave pays off big time), but this is all playing out even better than I expected, honestly. We know that Tom and Max are among the best at what they do, but I've already noticed them attempting plays that show they're not just learning how the other guy ticks, they're seeing the chances to exploit each others' strength(s) with just quick, almost "blind" reads (Vanek still has the odd disconnect when it comes to reading whether/how any of our defensemen are committed to supporting the rush). As long as they're building on that level of chemistry/understanding, and the line as a whole doesn't lose a presence down the middle of any zone, might as well leave DD there as far as I'm concerned now; certainly doesn't hurt Pacioretty, who certainly doesn't hurt Vanek, as it turns out.

I have enough faith in Plekanec and the Gallys to let that play out, and still believe in the ablity to slide Eller (or maybe even "playoff Bourque", if such a beast really exists) in there instead for shifts/roles that need more "presence" if it means creating an exploitation line of sorts with Galchenyuk centering the next line. I'm pretty insistent on keeping all of Briere, Gionta, "normal Bourque", Moen, Prust, White, and Weise in the bottom 6/special teams rotation, but hate the idea of seeing Galchenyuk get to play centre only to have one arm tied behind his back playing beside most of those guys.

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04-06-2014, 06:08 PM
  #491
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No, it sounds crappy, actually. Matt Moulson isn't half the player that Vanek is.
yeah sounds real crappy. I'd be real disappointed if we don't get Vanek. I have a good feeling he stays.

He's winning. He likes it and we can afford to give him a big contract. A good playoff run should seal it imo.

I don't think his agent lied when he said Vanek loves it here and I don't think he was lying when he said that a good playoff run will help in the decision.

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04-06-2014, 06:23 PM
  #492
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Originally Posted by borisbadenough View Post
TV is like a guy looking for the perfect girl . He spent the last six years playing on a one line team with no power play, but with a winger who played his game. Now he has had the opportunity to play with Tavares and KO on LI and DD and Patch in Montreal. Neither line plays his game or sees the ice the way he does. Patch is a great scorer but his skills sets do not match up. DD is...................DD... He made them all better . I can not say they made him better.

No chance of resigning the guy IMO even if there was enough cap room. He goes to Minn to play with POM, with an outside chance he signs with a contender like Boston, Detroit , St Louis or a similar team where they have a line that plays the same finesse, third pass kills game he does.
You're very funny!

Either that or you just don't know what you're talking about.

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04-06-2014, 06:27 PM
  #493
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
I'm very much a supporter of this philosophy as well (especially in the playoffs where the ability to crash wave after wave pays off big time), but this is all playing out even better than I expected, honestly. We know that Tom and Max are among the best at what they do, but I've already noticed them attempting plays that show they're not just learning how the other guy ticks, they're seeing the chances to exploit each others' strength(s) with just quick, almost "blind" reads (Vanek still has the odd disconnect when it comes to reading whether/how any of our defensemen are committed to supporting the rush). As long as they're building on that level of chemistry/understanding, and the line as a whole doesn't lose a presence down the middle of any zone, might as well leave DD there as far as I'm concerned now; certainly doesn't hurt Pacioretty, who certainly doesn't hurt Vanek, as it turns out.

I have enough faith in Plekanec and the Gallys to let that play out, and still believe in the ablity to slide Eller (or maybe even "playoff Bourque", if such a beast really exists) in there instead for shifts/roles that need more "presence" if it means creating an exploitation line of sorts with Galchenyuk centering the next line. I'm pretty insistent on keeping all of Briere, Gionta, "normal Bourque", Moen, Prust, White, and Weise in the bottom 6/special teams rotation, but hate the idea of seeing Galchenyuk get to play centre only to have one arm tied behind his back playing beside most of those guys.
At this point in the season with the team winning and that line clicking then yes there's no point in breaking them up. You dance with who brought you. But if a team finds a way to shutdown that line, or is able to shut down the other 3 lines then we can't be afraid to split the top line up.

For the same reason Galchenyuk should stay wing for the rest of this season/playoffs even though it's a shame he hasn't played center more this/last year.

I'm probably alone in this but I think we'll see the "good" Bourque in the playoffs. His problem is he can't motivate himself. Playing in front of 21K screaming fans in an electric atmosphere should get the adrenaline flowing for him.

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04-06-2014, 06:54 PM
  #494
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The best thing is we havents seen the best of him. When you are gonna see him skate and enter the zone and take a slapper or a snapshot and score you will say he is a good scorer. So far he exactly what I expected but he can do more...

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04-06-2014, 07:56 PM
  #495
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i hope we throw eric staal money at him, getting a player of his caliber without giving up any assets would be huge. 8.25M-8.50M for 5 years

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04-06-2014, 07:59 PM
  #496
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
At this point in the season with the team winning and that line clicking then yes there's no point in breaking them up. You dance with who brought you. But if a team finds a way to shutdown that line, or is able to shut down the other 3 lines then we can't be afraid to split the top line up.

For the same reason Galchenyuk should stay wing for the rest of this season/playoffs even though it's a shame he hasn't played center more this/last year.

I'm probably alone in this but I think we'll see the "good" Bourque in the playoffs. His problem is he can't motivate himself. Playing in front of 21K screaming fans in an electric atmosphere should get the adrenaline flowing for him.
Bourque looked good on Saturday, finishing his check had me up out of my chair asking "who was that who finished their check?!"

As for Vanek and his line, I like how they take the best D the other team has, which frees up the other 2 scoring lines.

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04-06-2014, 10:53 PM
  #497
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I don't think we can afford to lose Gorges right now.

Deal Briere and that frees up some cash, pay cut or goodbye to Gionta... there's ways of saving cash. Losing Gorges now though? I don't think we can do it and win unless we make some kind of trade to replace him. Just not enough depth back there.
Well said! Briere just isn't worth the money. Let Moen go and even White. Weise is better.

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04-07-2014, 01:12 AM
  #498
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Vanek has made the team so much better. I didn't see them getting out of the first round before the trade but now the sky's the limit.

I would be curious to see what Vanek could do with other line mates just to balance things out a bit.

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04-07-2014, 01:16 AM
  #499
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Vanek has made the team so much better. I didn't see them getting out of the first round before the trade but now the sky's the limit.

I would be curious to see what Vanek could do with other line mates just to balance things out a bit.
If something isn't broken don't fix it, he was tried with Pleky and it didn't really work.

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04-07-2014, 08:10 AM
  #500
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If something isn't broken don't fix it, he was tried with Pleky and it didn't really work.
Didn't even get any time together. They also went up against top teams in the west and vanek was snake bit playing a checking role. Lol

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