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Given these things, would you do this trade. Edm - Phi

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Old
03-01-2007, 10:24 AM
  #51
jb**
 
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way to much love for the Pens. You make it sound inevitable that they will be this dynasty and have multiple cups. get into the playoffs first, as that isnt even a lock.

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Old
03-01-2007, 10:32 AM
  #52
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the shmuck from the oilers board overrates his talent
and I wouldn't have anything to do with Kevin Lowe
so....no thanks

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Old
03-01-2007, 10:35 AM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JXC View Post
The point remains that the trade proposed at the top of this thread is not unreasonable.
i agree.

i think your "Randy Jones has outplayed Pitkanen" statement is what is now under discussion. that package is a HUGE amount of Edmonton to give up... if you think that's a reasonable trade offer, then CLEARLY you think Pitkanen is something special. that's a contradiction.

Mike Richards lack of goal scoring is much more alarming than Pitkanen's... a defenseman who isn't finding the net with his shot is something that happens... he's still producing pts, however.

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Old
03-01-2007, 10:40 AM
  #54
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OK guys, here's my take on all of this. First the trade certainly seems fair and it honestly is pretty fair but it really doesn't suite the Flyers "needs" as has been stated by so many others.

Honestly, this trade would end up being a huge WIN of the Oilers while at best NOT A LOSS for the Flyers. The talent level of all the players on any given team can be classified into 4 catagories: Elite, top end talen, solid average talent and boarderline/underachiever players. You always try to maximize the number of players you can in those catagories from top to bottom. Teams generally try to have 1-2 elites, 5-6 top end, 10-12 solid, and then the rest.

Right now we don't have any elite players. Our only realy top end talent is Gagne, Carter and Pitkanen. Almost all of the rest of the guys on the team fall into the 3rd catagory with a few being in the 4th.

If you surround your team with too many in the 3rd and 4th tiers and not enough in the 1st and 2nd tiers then you will stink just like the Flyers this season and Hawks/Blues/Pens in recent years. Trading away one of our very few 2nd tier guys and a draft pick who will likely be no less than a 2nd tier guy for even 5 guys that honestly only fall into the 3rd tier catagory is NOT a recipe for success.

The Flyers should be looking to trade 2-3 of those guys in the 3rd tier for a guy in the 2nd tier as is being porposed to us in this deal (there is rarely ever achance to trade of an elite player and when you do you really pay through the nose for them, see Lindros).

The only truly elite player in this years class of UFA's is Forsberg. If we can get him then great, if not we are looking at a tier 2 guy (Drury, etc). Timmonen is probably the only dman who is a solid 2nd tier guy and the rest are either boarderline 2/3 tier guys or just solid 3rd tier guys.

We need to add more top end talent, not just more above average bodies. We need more QUALITY, not more QUANTITY!

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Old
03-01-2007, 11:03 AM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
i think your "Randy Jones has outplayed Pitkanen" statement is what is now under discussion.
Not if I can help it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
that package is a HUGE amount of Edmonton to give up... if you think that's a reasonable trade offer, then CLEARLY you think Pitkanen is something special. that's a contradiction.
Not really. I am looking at it from the Flyers point of view. Whether it is unreasonable for Edmonton or not is a matter of indifference to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Mike Richards lack of goal scoring is much more alarming than Pitkanen's...
I agree with that. Richards is another guy who is 60 games away from toppling into the Bust Bin. The love affairs some have for him is more inexplicable ( ) than those who have love for 44.

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Old
03-01-2007, 11:12 AM
  #56
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I see people still talking about the old HF fight about quality vs quantity. I am offering up our number 1 C and top pairing D along with 3 1st round picks. That is quantity, but it is also quality. A lot of quality. Many GMs in the league would be very interested in Smith and Horcoff. It isn't like these guys are maybes or 3rd liners. Plus, they are cheap for what they bring, and can play a Philly style game.

But cool, so if this isn't a viable plan for you guys, what would be? If you keep Pitkanen and draft Turris/Kane (both of which I love, but are they that much better then Couture/Gagner?) and someone late like Gilles or something, does that really get you further ahead long term? I am not so sure. For example, Gagner, Petrecki, and two of Gilles/Cross/Hamill >>> Turris/Kane and one of Gilles/Cross/Hamill

But I am actually interested in your situation. What are the plans you guys are seeing for draft/summer? One thing to keep in mind is there is only one Briere, Drury, Forsberg, and Gomez. And given that one of B/D will resign in Buffalo(Briere is my guess), Forsberg is always on the verge of retirement, and Gomez has strong ties in NJ, and if he does move, might go out west. My point is you could end up with a Chara situation last year, where every team just said, meh, we'll just sign Chara as a UFA. He can only go to one team. So what is the master plan?

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Old
03-01-2007, 11:30 AM
  #57
mercury
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s7ark View Post
I see people still talking about the old HF fight about quality vs quantity. I am offering up our number 1 C and top pairing D along with 3 1st round picks. That is quantity, but it is also quality. A lot of quality. Many GMs in the league would be very interested in Smith and Horcoff. It isn't like these guys are maybes or 3rd liners. Plus, they are cheap for what they bring, and can play a Philly style game.

But cool, so if this isn't a viable plan for you guys, what would be? If you keep Pitkanen and draft Turris/Kane (both of which I love, but are they that much better then Couture/Gagner?) and someone late like Gilles or something, does that really get you further ahead long term? I am not so sure. For example, Gagner, Petrecki, and two of Gilles/Cross/Hamill >>> Turris/Kane and one of Gilles/Cross/Hamill

But I am actually interested in your situation. What are the plans you guys are seeing for draft/summer? One thing to keep in mind is there is only one Briere, Drury, Forsberg, and Gomez. And given that one of B/D will resign in Buffalo(Briere is my guess), Forsberg is always on the verge of retirement, and Gomez has strong ties in NJ, and if he does move, might go out west. My point is you could end up with a Chara situation last year, where every team just said, meh, we'll just sign Chara as a UFA. He can only go to one team. So what is the master plan?
Wait and let our young talent develop for once. Get a legit #1 goalie. Not trade a possible #1 defenseman AND the possible first overall pick in a draft. You would have had a better shot just saying Smith, Horcoff, and either your or NYI's first for Pitkanen and maybe a mid-round pick or a prospect.

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Old
03-01-2007, 01:48 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by JXC View Post
I wasn't directing that at any one person but at those who dismiss the proposed deal like it is sacreligious just to mention #44 in a trade that doesn't return Selanne or Heatley. Heck, there are probably people here who wouldn't take Selanne for Pitkanen.

As for Jones v Pitkanen, it's an expectations thing I guess. I was expecting NHL play from Pitkanen this year. Instead I see regression.
I guarantee there's a TON of people who wouldn't trade Pitkanen for Selanne. A 23 year old with gifted offensive skill from the back end with a controllable salary or a 37 year old forward near retirement? Tough call.

Jones vs. Pitkanen may be an expectations things, you're right. I expect AHL play from Jones and that's what I see.

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