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Old
03-01-2007, 11:31 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by Jon Prescription View Post
Anyone who isn't blind as a bat would be pissed off about the ref who was 50 feet away from the play calling a play after 2 or 3 seconds have passed for the only reason being the Pens whining to high heavens about it.
So you are saying you have not heard of the concept of a makeup call then?

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03-01-2007, 11:32 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by DevFan-RU- View Post
Well, the fault with the system is that it deteriorates the credibility of the officiating system.

I would prefer that the Officials in the NHL make themselves accountable. In private of course. Refs should call other refs out on their mistakes. They're job is to keep the sport honest...
good point. still though, my overall preference is to maintain a 2 ref system w/ no instant replay or whatever, just have the games called right. i dont want them called in favor of the rangers, i want them called FAIR.

not much to ask for, and i still believe it all comes down to giving real discipline for blatantly incorrect calls, and history of of biased reffing.

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03-01-2007, 11:32 PM
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaded-Fan View Post
So you are saying you have not heard of the concept of a makeup call then?
Jaded, you are missing the point. You don't make a call about 3 seconds after the play has already continued just because a bunch of whiners are whining to you.

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03-01-2007, 11:32 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Jaded-Fan View Post
So you are saying you have not heard of the concept of a makeup call then?
no, what is that?

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03-01-2007, 11:35 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Jon Prescription View Post
Jaded, you are missing the point. You don't make a call about 3 seconds after the play has already continued just because a bunch of whiners are whining to you.
Jon, I am disagreeing on the reasoning. As I said, I have seen it happen to my team enough to almost expect it in certain situations. You keep arguing whether the call was right or not. I am not going to get into it. Let's just say that in that situation the refs are almost always looking for any excuse to even the teams up. Little time left, tie game, and one team on their third PP in a row? Almost a given that your team is going to get a call against them if you even breathe wrong.

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03-01-2007, 11:36 PM
  #106
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heres the refs only cop out .... to claim betts has to do everything in his power to avoid the goal keeper. did he? well yes i think he did, but maybe the ref in that split second decision didnt feel the same way

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03-01-2007, 11:37 PM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaded-Fan View Post
Jon, I am disagreeing on the reasoning. As I said, I have seen it happen to my team enough to almost expect it in certain situations. You keep arguing whether the call was right or not. I am not going to get into it. Let's just say that in that situation the refs are almost always looking for any excuse to even the teams up. Little time left, tie game, and one team on their third PP in a row? Almost a given that your team is going to get a call against them if you even breathe wrong.
Jaded, in 20 years of watching hockey I have seen something like that maybe happen once or twice where a ref waits until the other team argues him into making a call. THAT does not happen in hockey. It happens in the NFL all the time. THIS is the topic at hand.

You guys got away with picks all game long. You're the last one to be talking about make up calls in the first place.

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03-01-2007, 11:40 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Jon Prescription View Post
Jaded, in 20 years of watching hockey I have seen something like that maybe happen once or twice where a ref waits until the other team argues him into making a call. THAT does not happen in hockey. It happens in the NFL all the time. THIS is the topic at hand.

You guys got away with picks all game long. You're the last one to be talking about make up calls in the first place.
We can agree to disagree. I see it all the time. To the point where I expect it and do not get too bent out of shape when it happens. The situation I painted will have a ref looking awfully close at the team who is on their third PP with the game winding down. Where the team on the PK would have to draw blood to go down by two men. Just hockey, but I suppose reasonable minds can differ.

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03-01-2007, 11:42 PM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaded-Fan View Post
We can agree to disagree. I see it all the time. To the point where I expect it and do not get too bent out of shape when it happens. The situation I painted will have a ref looking awfully close at the team who is on their third PP with the game winding down. Where the team on the PK would have to draw blood to go down by two men. Just hockey, but I suppose reasonable minds can differ.
Show me some examples of a ref waiting that long to make a call. I'd like to see videos of this, because I've watched at least 200 games a season and multiply that by 20 years. And I've only seen it happen once or twice as blatantly as it occurred tonight. How you can say it happens all the time is beyond me.

Again, this is not the NFL. It's the NHL. Calls are not made by a bunch of whining babies on the bench calling for a penalty.

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03-01-2007, 11:43 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Jaded-Fan View Post
We can agree to disagree. I see it all the time. To the point where I expect it and do not get too bent out of shape when it happens. The situation I painted will have a ref looking awfully close at the team who is on their third PP with the game winding down. Where the team on the PK would have to draw blood to go down by two men. Just hockey, but I suppose reasonable minds can differ.
i dunno, to me, i dont even care 1/10th as much about the the goalie interference as the picks.

If Spada or Schick (was Schick the other ref?) called even 1 or 2 of the half dozen + picks, the game would have unfolded VERY differently imho.

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03-01-2007, 11:46 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Jon Prescription View Post
Show me some examples of a ref waiting that long to make a call. I'd like to see videos of this, because I've watched at least 200 games a season and multiply that by 20 years. And I've only seen it happen once or twice as blatantly as it occurred tonight. How you can say it happens all the time is beyond me.

Again, this is not the NFL. It's the NHL. Calls are not made by a bunch of whining babies on the bench calling for a penalty.

You want links with video evidence? Sorry, can not provide that and not really up to a research job. I think that most NHL fans know what I am talking about though. It is not like I invented the concept.

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03-01-2007, 11:49 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by inferno272 View Post
i dunno, to me, i dont even care 1/10th as much about the the goalie interference as the picks.

If Spada or Schick (was Schick the other ref?) called even 1 or 2 of the half dozen + picks, the game would have unfolded VERY differently imho.
I said on the Pens' board, Roberts is the kind of player that I would LOATHE if he played for the other team. Yes, he is a cagy enough vet that he knows when to set picks and get away with them. And has a rep with the refs I suppose. I am assuming that you are referring to him because I saw them too. I freely admit that I would hate him with a passion, not to mention borderline bording calls that he gets away with and how he takes the body and no one responds. As a Pens fan of a team that is usually soft as charmin I feel your pain. And have no defense to that charge. Does not change my point above though.

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03-01-2007, 11:49 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Jaded-Fan View Post
You want links with video evidence? Sorry, can not provide that and not really up to a research job. I think that most NHL fans know what I am talking about though. It is not like I invented the concept.
im curious why you continue to ignore the argument presented, and not address what happened. yes, we are all very familiar with make up calls. it happens, but the question is, was that a makeup call or a screw job. If the call was made by the ref looking right at it and done at about the time of the collision, i think Youd probably hear a bit less complaining. having the trail official, 50+ feet away call it about 10-15 seconds after it happened, and only after he started getting an earful from the penguins bench is very unprofessional and totally lacking integrity.

thats the gripe bro, please address what was brought up rather than just saying it was a makeup call over and over again.

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03-01-2007, 11:50 PM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inferno272 View Post
im curious why you continue to ignore the argument presented, and not address what happened. yes, we are all very familiar with make up calls. it happens, but the question is, was that a makeup call or a screw job. If the call was made by the ref looking right at it and done at about the time of the collision, i think Youd probably hear a bit less complaining. having the trail official, 50+ feet away call it about 10-15 seconds after it happened, and only after he started getting an earful from the penguins bench is very unprofessional and totally lacking integrity.

thats the gripe bro, please address what was brought up rather than just saying it was a makeup call over and over again.
Exactly.

I respect Jaded a lot as a poster and I have to admit that he's talking about something completely opposite here.

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03-01-2007, 11:52 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Jaded-Fan View Post
I said on the Pens' board, Roberts is the kind of player that I would LOATHE if he played for the other team. Yes, he is a cagy enough vet that he knows when to set picks and get away with them. And has a rep with the refs I suppose. I am assuming that you are referring to him because I saw them too. I freely admit that I would hate him with a passion, not to mention borderline bording calls that he gets away with and how he takes the body and no one responds. As a Pens fan of a team that is usually soft as charmin I feel your pain. And have no defense to that charge. Does not change my point above though.
im having trouble understanding you here. you freely acknowledge that you guys got away with a plethora of picks, but it almost seems to me like you think im upset with Roberts and the rest of the penguins for executing them. I am not. If i were a Penguin fan and i saw them getting away with them all over the ice, id want them to do it MORE. Thats not the point. IM upset that the refs didnt call it. If you can get away with it, i dont expect you guys to reel it in and ignore the advantage, but i do expect the refs to call it.

if its a penalty, call it a penalty.

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03-01-2007, 11:52 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by inferno272 View Post
im curious why you continue to ignore the argument presented, and not address what happened. yes, we are all very familiar with make up calls. it happens, but the question is, was that a makeup call or a screw job. If the call was made by the ref looking right at it and done at about the time of the collision, i think Youd probably hear a bit less complaining. having the trail official, 50+ feet away call it about 10-15 seconds after it happened, and only after he started getting an earful from the penguins bench is very unprofessional and totally lacking integrity.

thats the gripe bro, please address what was brought up rather than just saying it was a makeup call over and over again.


Would you feel better if it was a hook or hold call that would have inevitably come 5 seconds later? You all are reacting like it made a huge difference. I am saying that the call, some call, was virtually inevitable. So why get into if it was or was not the right call. We both have our biases and that discussion would likely get no where.

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03-01-2007, 11:54 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by inferno272 View Post
im having trouble understanding you here. you freely acknowledge that you guys got away with a plethora of picks, but it almost seems to me like you think im upset with Roberts and the rest of the penguins for executing them. I am not. If i were a Penguin fan and i saw them getting away with them all over the ice, id want them to do it MORE. Thats not the point. IM upset that the refs didnt call it. If you can get away with it, i dont expect you guys to reel it in and ignore the advantage, but i do expect the refs to call it.

if its a penalty, call it a penalty.
I freely admit that Roberts got away with picks. Again, as a vet he knew when to set them I suppose. That too is hockey. The Rangers got away with a number of calls too that we swore about right and left when they happened on our GDT. And that also is hockey.

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03-01-2007, 11:55 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Jaded-Fan View Post


Would you feel better if it was a hook or hold call that would have inevitably come 5 seconds later? You all are reacting like it made a huge difference. I am saying that the call, some call, was virtually inevitable. So why get into if it was or was not the right call. We both have our biases and that discussion would likely get no where.
Yes. i would be MUCH happier with a soft hook or something like that (weve got Malik on our team, were used to those) called within the flow of the game. what i saw there was a screw job, not a makeup call.

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03-01-2007, 11:58 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Jaded-Fan View Post
I freely admit that Roberts got away with picks. Again, as a vet he knew when to set them I suppose. That too is hockey. The Rangers got away with a number of calls too that we swore about right and left when they happened on our GDT. And that also is hockey.
stuff gets missed in a game, and i readily agree that the Rangers got away with some stuff here and there. but the Pens did too (not counting picks) that kinda stuff always balances out. stuff thats borderline, or thats away from the play that people miss. The picks though were blatant, and occurred so often I was frankly at a loss for words as to why they werent called. It would be like Sean Avery constantly elbowing players all over the ice, and not getting a single call for it.

If they called at least 1, it would have changed the entire flow of the game.

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03-01-2007, 11:58 PM
  #120
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Yes. i would be MUCH happier with a soft hook or something like that (weve got Malik on our team, were used to those) called within the flow of the game. what i saw there was a screw job, not a makeup call.
Now I am not following. I just do not see the difference. I know what was behind the call and it was not the 'whining' (could you all choose a less inflamatory description) of the Pens' bench. Anything close was going the Pens' way. You all seem to think that the refs were out to get you. Not saying that refs do not sometimes have an agenda. They certainly were out to put Crosby in his place a few games early last year. But in this case, in my opinion, it was just the usual thing that goes on. That is my opinion.

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03-02-2007, 12:01 AM
  #121
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Now I am not following. I just do not see the difference. I know what was behind the call and it was not the 'whining' (could you all choose a less inflamatory description) of the Pens' bench. Anything close was going the Pens' way. You all seem to think that the refs were out to get you. Not saying that refs do not sometimes have an agenda. They certainly were out to put Crosby in his place a few games eary last year. But in this case, in my opinion, it was just the usual thing that goes on. That is my opinion.
again, its the way it unfolded. crap calls happen all the time. makeup calls happen all the time. but what happened w/ Spada there...that was beyond words.

Also, lets say hypothetically the play goes on and Betts isnt whistled, do you think the likelyhood of the Rangers actually scoring a goal there goes up because Fluery is ~12 feet away from his net?

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03-02-2007, 12:04 AM
  #122
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again, its the way it unfolded. crap calls happen all the time. makeup calls happen all the time. but what happened w/ Spada there...that was beyond words.

Also, lets say hypothetically the play goes on and Betts isnt whistled, do you think the likelyhood of the Rangers actually scoring a goal there goes up because Fluery is ~12 feet away from his net?
Absolutely. And that is yet another reason for the call. 3rd PP of the period for the Rangers, none for the Pens. Time winding down. And the Pens having been in the refs ear about missed calls all period. And now Fleury gets bumped creating an opportunity that could win the game. And you are surprised that the Refs called it? Again, it was almost inevitable. Refs hate for their call to decide a game when the game is winding down, especially if the team on the PK has not had a PP all period and been on the PK for half the period. The fact that it created a scroing opportunity was part of the reason the call was made. In fact if Fleury has gone down and a Ranger was within a couple feet of him and had not touched him the call may still have been made. That is NHL reffing in situations like that.

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03-02-2007, 12:11 AM
  #123
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Absolutely. And that is yet another reason for the call. 3rd PP of the period for the Rangers, none for the Pens. Time winding down. And the Pens having been in the refs ear about missed calls all period. And now Fleury gets bumped creating an opportunity that could win the game. And you are surprised that the Refs called it? Again, it was almost inevitable. Refs hate for their call to decide a game when the game is winding down, especially if the team on the PK has not had a PP all period and been on the PK for half the period. The fact that it created a scroing opportunity was part of the reason the call was made. In fact if Fleury has gone down and a Ranger was within a couple feet of him and had not touched him the call may still have been made. That is NHL reffing in situations like that.
http://www.nhl.com/scores/htmlreport...7/GS020959.HTM

for the record that was the 2nd penalty in the period against the Pens, and the first penalty actually was called at the end of the 2nd period. Curious if 1 actual call in the period needed to lead to a makeup call.

i dunno, the final tally was 4 penalties each. id say what should have actually been called was ~13 penalties for you guys and ~7 for us.

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03-02-2007, 12:12 AM
  #124
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Until the referees are held accountable for sucking, teams are always going to get screwed. The NHL has no discernable system in place for reviewing a refs performance, and it's policies for holding refs accountable are non-existant. The NFL reviews their refs performance after every game, issues fines for blantantly muffed calls, and actually admits when the officials make a mistake.

The officiating in the NHL is a lot like most of the league- it's a big "Old Boys Club", where once you're in, it doesn't matter what you do anymore. Haha my dad played with Paul Stewart on in prep hockey, but man there wasn't a more biased official in any sport than good 'ol Stewie. He's just a prime example of a poor referee that was never held in check, never brought to task for anything he did. It's the same today though- the refs are never held accountable for anything, and we're never going to see consistantly well-ref'd games until they start holding the officials responsible on a game-by-game basis.

And if you guys thought you got jobbed on the MAF call, wait until a team scores a go ahead goal with 6 skaters on the ice. This entire season has been one pitifully ref'd game after another.

P.S.

The whole concept for "make-up calls" is asinine. No other sport in the world (well, maybe soccer), blatantly makes calls to even things outs like hockey. I just don't get the concept, but if by some miracle a ref takes his head out of his ass and makes a call in the last five minutes of a game, you can't even look at someone without an even-up call. Terrible.

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03-02-2007, 12:15 AM
  #125
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Originally Posted by inferno272 View Post
http://www.nhl.com/scores/htmlreport...7/GS020959.HTM

for the record that was the 2nd penalty in the period against the Pens, and the first penalty actually was called at the end of the 2nd period. Curious if 1 actual call in the period needed to lead to a makeup call.

i dunno, the final tally was 4 penalties each. id say what should have actually been called was ~13 penalties for you guys and ~7 for us.
I am not arguing that one way or another. The play in question, it was the timing of the incident and refs hatred of deciding games with calls as the game is winding down more than anything that led to the call. That is all that I am saying. Have you ever seen the refs swallow the whistle the last five minutes of a game? This was basically along those lines.

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